Cuda-E - 4000 watt Shumaker drive upgrade

www.recumbents.com said:
It sounds like a lot of the folks here are bulk charging rather than balance charging. I can see why, to balance charge a 12s 2P pack properly, you have to break it apart and charge each pack separately, which is a PITA. Mattt says that he usually just balances each pack when new, and that they stay balanced after that (unless they are abused by running them down too low!) I'm now thinking:

* Balance charge each pack when new.
* Bulk charge on a daily basis
* Balance charge each pack on the weekend, or even less frequently if it looks like the packs are staying in balance.

So I need two separate charging systems.

1) 12V Meanwell + Bantam e-Station BC6DC (balance charger) (ordered!)
2) 48V Meanwell + TPPacks current limiter (bulk charger)
Click to expand...


Before you buy ANYTHING check GGoodrums latest review of the new Hyperion EOS 1420i NET3 14s Balance Charger... im getting one myself, you can bulk charge and balance at same time here's the link, OH and Gary is offering 25 bucks of the price of Hyperion to ES memebers so ~$US155

Your better of with 24v Meanwells too, they are higher amp than the 48v
buy 2 and series them up or use just the one and simply bulk charge all packs in parallel at 22v instead of parallel/series bulk charge at 48v....

KiM
 
Hey Holo - That Top Hat adapter in the thread will work great if it allows a 3/4" gap for the disk brake. Matt's brake->chainring adapter would allow the same thing with a spacer to move the disk brake a bit more outboard. A special disk brake adapter would also be needed to allow the brake assembly to be mounted a bit more outboard.

KiM - This would not be the Endless Sphere without endless options! That seems like a nice solution, and probably one I will invest in eventually. I wish I had seen this a few days ago before buying the 2V Meanwell + Bantam e-Station BC6DC. I think that the BC6DC will get me started though. I realistically have 4 months of cold and snow to decide the best way to maintain the LiPo packs before I will be using this bike on a regular basis.

It looks like I may be making a run to the Matt Cave on Friday to pick up parts, and that will enable me to proceed with the project.

-Warren.
 
I have a top hat adapter to spare if you want to pay the shipping :!: Would love to see the disc brake & sprocket combo on Left rear wheel. The top hat lines up just a few mm outside of Matts' 130mmBCD adapter but is only a 1/4" thick so 'bout 5/16" gap if bike chainrings adapted or 3/8" gap with their sprockets. You could add some spacers outward with that. The adapter overall is very sturdy sturdy but I still see the weak spot the 6 bolt holes in the hub. Oh, and it's drilled for their sprockets, I can send you 45T & 49T with hardware. PM me if interested.

10T has 135K, maybe a little less than 7000rpm.
 
Friday I picked up the new freewheel, controller and throttle assembly from Matt. Matt showed by how to program the Castle Creations 160 amp controller, and I got to see the his controllers data logs from the monster dual motor trike that went 70MPH. Wow! :shock: The scary thing is that it only took a few seconds to shoot from 30MPH to 70MPH.

We then went to the Matt Cave, nestled in a local full machine shop. He is able to get pretty much anything he wants fabbed, and it seems like practically every aspect of building an e-bike can be performed by small shops within a short drive of his house. His yellow speed-trike was dis-assembled while he retrofits it with a singe motor.

I also now have the batteries and the controller (still waiting on the PSU from China). I am amazed how small the Li-Po batteries are.

I attempted to make a 1/4" aluminum spacer to allow me to mount a rear disk brake outboard of the chain ring adapter, but I must not have been awake because I used the wrong hole saw on it. Arg. That was my last scrap of 1/4" aluminum plate, that I saved from building a suspension fork brake bridge 10 years ago. Maybe I can still make a 2 piece adapter.

Weather is too crappy now to do any outdoor activities like brazing (or riding for that matter!), so this weekend I will be working on the wiring and cutting/filing the dropouts area to accept the breezer droupouts.

-Warren.
 
This is a nice Enclosure that will fit four 5000ma x 6P LiPos, with a little elbow room.
OD - 10.83 x 6.89 x 2.46 (inches)
ID - 10 x 6.3 x 2.4
$37

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hammond-Manufacturing/1550JBK/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtIfCzob2ABWciHj3xn3Rd3
http://www.hammondmfg.com/pdf/1550J.pdf

1550JBK.jpg


The extra 2" will leave room for the wires and maybe more.

-Warren
 
Waiting for parts is the hardest part of building a bike. I'm so close to ready to ride I can taste it, but...

I'm waiting for a 48T road chainring that I need to go with the 13T drive freewheel. It's on the slow boat from Niagara cycle works. Once I get that I will know what my chain line looks like so I can braze the dropouts in the right place.

I'm also still waiting on the Meanwell power supply on the Junk from China. The winds must not be favorable. I think I'm going to use an ancient midrange computer power supply while I wait. It has a 9A 12V tap.

Finally I'm waiting on the aluminum box above. No use adding any connectors until I see how the wires all fit in the box. That should make a very clean looking and damage resistant battery pack package to toss into my bike bag. I think the ESC will fit inside too.

In the meantime I am trying to figure out how to fit that massive Magura throttle, a brake handle, and an 8 speed shifter all on the same handlebar and in reach of my fingers at high speeds...

-Warren.
 
Question for the panel: I have a DPDT panel mount switch rated at 16A / 250 VAC. That's 4000 watts.

How does that translate to VDC? Divide the voltage in half so it's only good for 2000 DC watts? I'm planning on using both poles of the switch so even then the switch should handle 4000 watts.

Thanks,

-Warren.
 
I only look at amps. I know the voltage affects this too. However, you cannot increase amps directly as you reduce voltage. I just make sure I run a switch that is rated for the amps I will be pulling regardless of voltage difference.

It works for me!

Matt
 
If the switch does't have a DC rating on it, then it may not have a big enough gap across it's contacts to be able to extinguish a DC arc if you were to try to switch it off while current is flowing, and it could just weld the contacts together.

The AC amp rating is certainly usable for guesstimating what DC current the switch will pass while closed, just don't expect it to be able to break that connection while that DC current is flowing. :)
 
I did some Google research on this subject. There does not seem to be a hard and fast rule for figuring out what a switch's DC rating is based on the AC rating.

General consensus is that as amberwolf notes and recumpence intuits, the AC amperage rating is probably not usable for lower voltage DC, if you want to turn the switch on and off under load.

One explanation was:
"Mechanical switches do not open instantaneously, Instead, dielectric strength builds as the mechanical contacts of the switch separate. Therefore, there will be a short arc until the dielectric strength is sufficient to hold off the driving voltage.

In an AC circuit, this interruption process is assisted by the fact that there is a natural 'current zero' that occurs twice during each cycle. But there are no natural current zeros in a DC circuit. As a result, the actual stress on the contacts will be greater in a DC circuit than in an AC circuit with the same voltage and current. Or saying it differently, if the physical capabilities of the switch are fixed, then it will have to be derated when applied in a DC circuit where the physical stresses associated with interruption will tend to be greater"

Once the switch is engaged, it should be able to handle much higher current, so I'm thinking I may be ok. We'll see!

Thanks,

-Warren.
 
Here's the stuff that I need to put into a nice neat package that will fit in my seat back bag. Pictured are the four 5Ah 22V LiPo battery packs, the RC motor controller (ESC) , fuse, mongo Anderson connectors, and a switch.

Img_0121.jpg


This is the Bantam e-station BC6-DC battery charger. It's tiny. I'm hooking up the batteries into two parallel packs, so I'll be able to charge two batteries at once. Before I do do that though, I need to charge each pack separately so that each cell is the same voltage (balanced). That way when I attach them together the voltage won't try try quickly flow from one pack into another.

Img_0122.jpg


Of course I can't use it at all until I can hook it up to 12 volt power supply. I ordered a Meanwell 12V power supply from EBay a couple weeks ago and apparently it is on the slow boat from China.



In the meantime I thought I would use this computer power supply, which said it supplied 14A at 12V, and . It had two boards in it, one of which had two leads supplying the other board. I was hoping that would be 12V as the other board has an 80 pin connector and no clear point to tap into the 12V, but when I hooked up my Fluke it said 395 volts!
I will wait patiently for the Meanwell 12V power supply...

Img_0117.jpg


Here's the drivetrain after fitting the 13T freewheel and the 48T chainring. I now have the proper clearance around the brake mounting tabs. Now I can mark the location of the dropouts, cut and file the existing dropouts, and braze in the new droputs.

Img_0120.jpg


-Warren.
 
www.recumbents.com said:
Finally I'm waiting on the aluminum box above. No use adding any connectors until I see how the wires all fit in the box. That should make a very clean looking and damage resistant battery pack package to toss into my bike bag. I think the ESC will fit inside too.

-Warren.
Click to expand...

Hi Warren.
How will you cool the ESC inside the enclosure? Don't they require airflow?
Cheers!
 
The aluminum box I ordered arrived today. In this picture I just jammed everything in the box to see if the lid will screw down. Everything fits, barely. I'll fill in any gaps with Coroplast.
Matt says that the ESC does not get hot. I'll screw it to the inside of the box so if it does heat up it will have a nice big heat sink to dissipate heat into.

Img_0123.jpg


More here: http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/e-bent/rc_drive/default.htm

-Warren.
 
The Meanwell supply arrived (the silver box under the Bantam e-station). I had to use the manual to figure out how to use the e-station, but it was pretty straightforward. I balance charged each battery before I start connecting them in parallel. All cells are now either 4.20 or 4.19 volts. I had to perform a couple balance charge / discharge cycle on one pack to get the individual cells to within .1 volts of each other.

Img_0124.jpg


It took me a while to figure out how to set up the throttle/brake/gear shifter on the right handlebar. The Magura throttle is huge! I finally ended up using a Shimano 8 speed trigger shifter and a Forte (Performance brand) MTB brake lever. I had to surgically remove the end of the trigger shifter gear down-shift lever so it would clear the Magura throttle.

Img_0127.jpg


Another challenge I had was how to mount the power side idler so the chain would clear the rear stays. Originally I had mounted this idler directly to the BB cup shown here. It was nice and sturdy, but the chain rubbed the bottom of chain stay. I decided that instead of brazing a bracket on, I would make one that bolts on using the BB cup. Because I wanted a real challenge, I decided to whittle the bracket from 1/8" thick steel, using only a swiss army knife. :wink: The bracket is picture to the left of the idler.

Img_0125.jpg


Here's the bracket installed on the bike, and held in place by the BB cup.

Img_0128.jpg


Here's the power side idler in place. Everything clears now. I'm not done with the human power drivetrain yet, The return chain also needs an idler.

Img_0129.jpg


Now that all the batteries are charged, I have started to combine the battery packs I think I have now figured out all the ways NOT to solder together three large wires, so I have a couple nice blobs of solder holding some wires together. :roll:

More soon...

-Warren.
 
No need to hurry Matt, I still have a lot of work to do before it hits the road!

This week I have been adding giant 75amp Anderson connectors to the fat power and phase wires, soldering the 4 battery packs into 2 parallel packs, and cutting holes in the aluminum box for the connectors to stick through. I have decided to ditch the switch, and instead will do as others have have and use an Anderson plug with the fuse attached that will disconnect power to the ESC when it's removed. The three phase wires are attached to another Anderson connector that pokes though the box. I still need to figure out what connector to use to get the 44V from the pack out for powering the servo tester for the throttle, and for recharging the batteries in bulk mode. I also need to figure out what connector to use for the throttle connection to the ESC. One end of this box will be very busy.

It's been too cold for brazing!

-Warren.
 
It took me a couple tries to figure this out, but to properly solder 10 gauge wires together, first press them together and do not twist the strands. Then take a long piece of solid copper wire, like phone wire, and wrap it tightly around the wires. This holds it all together and makes it much easier to solder.

Img_0130.jpg


Here's the battery box after adding Anderson 75 amp connectors to the wires. I think if I did this again I would not use these as they are HUGE. I would use the connectors from Hobby King that match the connectors on the batteries.

Img_0131.jpg


One nice thing about the Anderson connectors is that the offer panel mount options. I used that ability to mount them to one end of the box. This allows detachable output for the motor wires (left side). On the right is the fuse. Disconnecting this Anderson connector disables the battery pack, so effectively this is the on/off switch.
In the middle are the throttle wires. Because this is an RC system, you can't just plug in a twist throttle. You need more parts (of course). In particular you need a "servo tester" and a "battery ellimination circuit" (BEC). The BEC converts the 48V from the battery to 5V for the throttle controller. The throttle controller, well... controls the throttle. Here's Matt's tutorial on building an RC throttle system. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=12261

Img_0132.jpg


Here's the box with the lid screwed on. It all fits!

I'm also going to try to fit the server tester and BEC into the box, using Molex connectors on the box More wiring...
Img_0134.jpg


-Warren.
 
Here's a schematic of the batteries and RC drive system. Not shown are the battery balance charge wires and balance charge configuration.

batteryschematic.gif


Parts shown:

Turnigy 5000mah 6S 22.4 batteries
Castle Creations BEC
Castle Creations Servo Tester
Castle Creations ICE HV160 ESC (controller)
Astro Flight 3210 motor
Magura throttle
 
It looks really clean!

That is the exact method I use for soldering large guage wire. I think it is the easiest method. I like using the 4mm bullet connectors Hobby King uses. It makes wiring simple.

I cannot wait to do some riding together this summer. You can try out one of my trikes as well.

Matt
 
I fired up the whole system today for the first time on the basement floor. Works fine, but the motor turns the wrong way. Oh well, I had a 50/50 chance of getting it right the first time. I just need to reverse two of the wires. I took a video too:

[youtube]kVN8AERoUOA[/youtube]

-Warren.
 
I strapped on the battery pack and rode up and down the block. Acceleration was brisk but at low speeds the motor seems to stumble. Is that because of the lack of sensors or do I have something set wrong? Also when I got back the CC phoenix 160 ESC was flashing red and beeping 3 times. The Phoenix user guide: http://www.castlecreations.com/support/documents/Phoenix_User_Guide.pdf says that ": Current draw exceeded the safe capacity of the controller". Really? I used 160 amps at 50V? 8000 watts? I hope not.

Any ideas?

-Warren.
 
That flashing can also mean "Stuck Prop". Odds are you gave it hard throttle at very low RPM and it thought the airplane propeller was stuck. :)

The programming can be changed for a slow motor ramp up speed. In the throttle tab (using the USB programmer) you can set the motor response to zero. That gives a roughly 1/2 second throttle ramp speed. This will reduce the tendency of the system to spike. It is not normally needed. But, I have had one system that benefited from this. It is also possible the super cold weather can be affecting something.

My systems are all very smooth even at low speed. However, the only downside is, if you are too hard on the throttle at very low RPM, it can confuse the controller a bit. This is normally not a problem in typical riding.

Matt
 
Hi Matt,

Thanks, yes I may have blipped the throttle when moving slow, so it could have been "stuck prop". I didn't see that in the Phoenix guide. I think we decided on the slow ramp-up when you set up the ESC at your house. When idling the system at low RPM with no load the motor hiccups every few seconds, Is that a timing issue, or normal like a race car with a hot cam? Right now my phase wires are a couple feet long, but I can shorten them to about a foot. Will that help?

-Warren.
 
If it is running very low RPM, yes, you may get a tiny burp every now and then. But, that is only at super low RPM (like under 10% throttle). Beyond that, it should be fine.

Hmm, I think I set it for very little ramp up so you will have sharper throttle response, but I am not 100% sure on that. Sorry. I program so many controllers. :wink:

Anyway, yes, shortening the phase wires is not a bad thing. It is not a problem to be long. But, if you can go short, that is good. I have over 2 feet of wire on one of my systems, though, and it runs fine.

I will check one of my bikes at extremely low RPM and see at what point it gets touchy. Normally the RPM has to be painfully low to encounter any hickups.

No biggie, though. It will run great. :)

Matt
 
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