cute q100, 24v versus 36v and hall sensors support?

staldor

10 mW
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
31
Hi

I'm planning to build a folding 20" ebike. My priority is lightweight and i dont need 50kph/30mph speeds, 30kph/20mph is plenty (also for the local law). However, good hill climbing ability would be very nice here in hilly Norway. I'm pretty sure i will go for a Q100 rear hub motor since they seems lightweight and nonexpensive. But, I'm not really sure if I should go for the 24V or 36v version.

How big difference is there between these two motor configurations? Does it determine the amount of windings in the motor (that affects the rpm?)? Or is it mostly a controller thing?

I also see from the elifebike.com shop that only the q100 24v version has the hall sensor. Does this mean that cute Q100 only supports hall sensors in 24V configuration? Is that a strong reason to go for a 24v version?

I have ordered two cheap 6s 4000mah lipo that i plan to use, either running them in parallel or series (22v or 44v). However, if i like the ebike feeling i may build a 7s-10s li-ion batterypack from 18650 or 26650 cells.

I'm btw planning to order it from china. These things are to expensive here in Norway.. However, any advice are very welcome!

Thanks!
 
You have a choice. You can run the 24v 201rpm motor with 12s to get about 22 mph in 20" wheelswith good climbing power. Aim for about 17 to 18 amps; or use the 393rpm motor at 36v, which should be about the same. Two zippy 8ah 6s packs fit perfectly in one of those frog cases to make a powerful lightweight battery and a very neat installation with a 6 FET controller.If you look back, you'll find my example of this in a Dahon Jetstream.
Best would be to get the hall sensor motor and the KU63 controller from BMSBattery because the controller can work both with and without sensors, which is useful if you burn any sensors at the higher power.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=38319&p=558811&hilit=jetstream#p558811
 
Thanks for the info!

So in other words only the 24v version has the hall sensor? Anyway, it looks like the 24v version is a nice option. Then i can also try it out on 6s or 7s to see how that is.

Would it be impossible to get over the 22mph limit if adding power with the pedals? Or does the motor loose all the power at this rpm?

I liked your frog solution. That water bottle case looks also nice, and would maybe help getting a lower center of gravity on the bike.
http://ebike-bmsbattery.com/index.php?url=dispro.php%3Fid%3D114
 
Right now, I would say forget Elifebike as he hasn't proven to be a reliable vendor.
One thing D8veh didn't mention is there is a physical difference between the the 24V and the 36V motors. The 36V version uses stacked[compound] planetary gears, while the 24V makes due with the more common single-plane gear-set. What this translates to in real world performance and reliability, I'm not sure. Perhaps D8veh will comment on this.
More and more, we are hearing about the poor quality of the BMS Battery wheel builds. Still, it might be more economic favorable to buy the entire kit and rebuild the wheel to suit[perhaps replacing the soft spokes].
All the Cute Q100 motors will accept a 8 or 9-speed freewheel in a 135 mm drop-out width, a big plus if your bike uses a cassette with those gears.

I'm pretty sure the 36V "328" "fast wind" has a no-load speed of 270 rpm @ 36V. You can use the Ezee 20" motor @ 96% throttle in the Ebike CA simulator to get an idea of speeds relative to Battery voltage.

I believe you "specify" hall sensors when ordering from BMS Battery.
 
I can pedal to about 25mph fairly comfortably and I'm not young and fit. You need to get a free-wheel gear set with 11T top gear, which you can get from Ebikes.ca.

The Cute motor is not very strong. Its nylon gears are smaller than the equivalent Bafang, so I wouldn't go over 12S and 18 amps. You can try it, but it depends whether you mind having to replace/repair the motor. They're very cheap, so you could get two at the same time - maybe one built into a wheel and the other just a bare motor, because when you dismantle it, everything comes out leaving only the outer shell still attached to the spokes, so it's a five minute job to change the whole motor internals - gears, windings and halls.

The problem with more speed is that the motor won't be able to supply the power to sustain the speed, so it'll over-heat.

To get 18 amps from a typical 14 amp 6 FET controller, you need to solder about 1/3 of the shunt.

Bottle battery shell will be a good solution if you can get batteries that fit inside it. You'll need 44v for the speed unless you use the 36v 393rpm motor. 18650 cells can be quite heavy by the time you've made a pack unless you can get good high capacity cells - not the cheapo rubbish recycled/re-branded/reject ones from some Chinese Ebay sellers. Can you fit a bottle battery on a folder?
 
Thanks again for your replies!

What does poor wheel build translates to; hub out of center or just bad quality materials? I have a truing stand (built two wheels some years ago) so i guess i can fix some of a bad build. I was also planning to buy an extra alternative motor, let say the q85. More to play around..

I had not yet bought the folding bike, but i'm looking for bikes with 6-7 speeds rear cassette. I will search for the 11T top gear option. And no, i'm not sure if the water bootle battery case will fit a folding bike. But I will look into it when i have the bike.
Looking at the reviews at dealextreme, it looks like there exists affordable 18650 cells with capacity of around 2400-2600mah. I'm going to order some and check them out with an Imax B6AC i just ordered. Fore some reason it looks like the 18650 cells has the best weight/ah ratio.

Anyway, it looks like the 24v motor gives me the most options. Will check out the ebike simulator. But I still don't know if it's only the 24v version that has the hall sensor. I sent a mail to bmsbattery about but haven't got an answer yet. elifebike confirmed this by mail, but maybe he has other versions?
 
I've had several wheels from BMSBattery: I personally don't believe that there's anything wrong with the materials; however, they don't normally put enough tension in the spokes, which can lead to all sorts of problems if it's not sorted. You normally have to dish the wheel a bit anyway, so you might as well tension the spokes at the same time. It's not difficult to do. I learnt from a couple of Youtube videos and Sheldon Brown's excellent website. My advice would be to get your wheel built by BMSBattery because it doesn't cost much extra, and then you can change things later if you're not happy. All mine are still running without problems after initial adjustment.

I forgot to mention earlier when I said I could pedal comfortably at 25mph that I was only talking about pedal speed, which means down-hill. Once you've exceeded the motor speed of about 23mph, you're on your own, so you'd need to be quite strong to pedal on the flat at 25mph.

I wouldn't bother with the Q85. It's even smaller and lighter. I can't see it sustaining 20mph.

The conversion I did on my Dahon was very straightforward and came out very neat. You get light powerful batteries; a nice place to put your controller (and Speedict if you want one); the bike still folds easily; able to sustain 20mph for reasonable time (with my bulk); you can get the complete kit and battery case from BMSBattery. What more do you want. You don't need to make anything more complicated. The only thing I can't confirm yet is the life of the motor because I've only done about 200 miles while I've been trying out different Speedict software versions that didn't quite do what I wanted; however, I think/hope they might be doing something for me to get it just how I want it.
 
staldor said:
Thanks again for your replies!

What does poor wheel build translates to; hub out of center or just bad quality materials? I have a truing stand (built two wheels some years ago) so i guess i can fix some of a bad build. I was also planning to buy an extra alternative motor, let say the q85. More to play around..

I had not yet bought the folding bike, but i'm looking for bikes with 6-7 speeds rear cassette. I will search for the 11T top gear option. And no, i'm not sure if the water bootle battery case will fit a folding bike. But I will look into it when i have the bike.
Looking at the reviews at dealextreme, it looks like there exists affordable 18650 cells with capacity of around 2400-2600mah. I'm going to order some and check them out with an Imax B6AC i just ordered. Fore some reason it looks like the 18650 cells has the best weight/ah ratio.

Anyway, it looks like the 24v motor gives me the most options. Will check out the ebike simulator. But I still don't know if it's only the 24v version that has the hall sensor. I sent a mail to bmsbattery about but haven't got an answer yet. elifebike confirmed this by mail, but maybe he has other versions?

The reports on sketchy wheel builds were mostly for the larger BPM motor, perhaps the sm. motor builds are better.

It doesn't matter what the low gear is on the folder's cassette, as you will have to replace it with a freewheel anyhow. But what does matter[to save some money]is to match the deraileur/shifter to the freewheel. In other words, a 7-speed bike would go well with a 7-speed freewheel.

If you are going to go to the trouble of building a battery out of cells, you should just look to Lipo. The Hobbyking stuff is just so compact, powerful and reasonable. And it's getting better all the time.

I think I posted the 24V q100 no-load speeds somewhere here, search cute q100

You could do a lot worse than just copying D8veh's build, but I think I would use the 36V motor, perhaps more tolerant of over-volting
 
I was in this identical situation about three weeks before you, here's my post: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38590

Basically I wanted to build a 20" folding ebike that did 20mph/30kph using BMSBattery parts. I wound up going with two 24V 10AH frog batteries and two front Q85 24V 250W kits, laced into 20" wheels, all from BMS battery. I also picked up some extra throttles because they were so dirt cheap and shipping is barely anything if you are already buying a bigger kit. Everything was received in about 2 and a half weeks (a second order I recently placed came in only 1 week). Everything was well packed and the only annoying thing was DHL charged me an extra 21 bucks a week or two later. Weird.

Anyways, the first wheel had some lateral and radial untrueness. I put it in my truing stand and quickly saw that one of the spokes wasn't even tensioned, I could wiggle it around and move it up and down. I trued the wheel and then it was fine. The second wheel was much closer to true and had better spoke tension, i just did some fine tune adjustment to make it extra true.

I put the motors on two 20" folding bikes. My initial research led me to believe most folding bikes use an 85mm wide front fork dropout width, which is why I went with the q85 motor. When I installed the motor though, there seemed to be about a 1/4 inch extra on each side of the motor, which adds up to a total of about 100mm so perhaps this folding bike did use a 100mm front fork and I hadn't planned accordingly. No matter though because the motor kit came with a couple of what appeared to be spacers that fit over the axle of the motor. They were about 3/16 inch thick I'd guess so they didn't totally make up the gap, but they got close and allowed me to crank down the axle nuts and not bend the fork as much as it would have without the spacers. The slight bending of the fork seemed fine as it was only a few mm on each side. Next I put the 24V 10AH frog batteries on the seat posts because there wasn't enough room on the frame's actual seat tube to mount it. The annoying thing here is that the frog battery seems to be designed to clamp onto a thicker frame tube than the thin seat post I mounted it on. That meant tightening the bolts around the seat post basically turned the two metal arms into a triangle because I had to tighten the bolts down so freaking far. Then because I had tightened them down so far to force the metal arms around the seat post, they were now not so centered so the plastic housing for the lower part of the battery no longer fit since the bolt ends stuck out so far to one side. I replaced them with shorter bolts (which fit because now to the two metal arms were bent closer together) and everything then worked fine. If I do it again in the future I'd probably machine a bit of a spacer, such as a block of aluminum drilled with a hole slightly over the size of the seat post, cut in half to make two arch looking pieces and then clamp those in the battery's clamp arms around the seat post. Also of note: the battery comes without leads connected but includes the leads and connector. It helps to have a wire stripper/crimper to strip the wire and crimp the connector. In a pinch a knife and pair of pliers will work. (Now how many people cringed when I said that?) Next I taped the controller into the lower part of the battery holder that stays on the bike using electrical tape and it helped hide it nicely and also likely give a small amount of shock absorption for the controller, for what it's worth.

The battery takes about 6.5 hours to charge on a TOTALLY dead charge, though it only got to that point once. It's a bit long of a charge time, but hey, good/cheap/fast - pick two.

My fiance and I have ridden the bikes for about 100km each. So far I'm very satisfied with the whole BMSBattery kit and battery. The speed is just shy of 30 kph (we were in Israel so I had everything in SI units) though on even a tiny bit of a downhill it could get up to 33-34 kph. The acceleration leaves a lot to be desired, though I'm used to my two ebikes here in the states, one with a Xlyte 5303 behemoth doing 30 mph and acceleration that scares people and another with a 9C 2808 that does almost as good. The range of our little electric folders seemed to be just shy of 30 km with no pedaling, which was decent for us to toot around town, go to the beach and the park all in one trip. If I could change one thing, it would be to have gotten the 15 AH battery instead of the 10AH, which would have likely given us just over 45 km range.

Here is a pic of one of the two bikes: http://postimage.org/image/jm3l0993p/
And here are 5 or 6 pics of the other, currently for sale on a craigslist-type website in Israel. Hey, if you know anybody... haha http://www.yad2.co.il/Yad2/ViewImage.php?CatID=3&SubCatID=0&RecordID=24a184c07cfbd415a334551b8b02f051a82

I don't have enough data to suggest any long term reliability, but from what I've experienced so far I am very happy with BMSbattery and the parts I ordered. I will definitely order from BMSBattery again.
 
The frog battery chassis is supposed to come with nylon inserts exactly as you have planned. There are two halves, each with two holes for the screws that go across the front and a large hole (in two halves) for the seat post/pin. When I ordered mine from BMSBattery, they omitted that part. As I had a spare set from a previous installation from another supplier, I didn't contact them to see if they had them. On another bike I tried to clamp without the nylon inserts, but, as you figured out, it's not very good. You could try asking BMSBattery if they have these parts in a box somewhere. Perhaps they got them from the supplier but don't know what they are.

Am I right that you have the 393 rpm version of the motor?

If you want a bit more hill-climbing power, you can solder up one leg of the shunt which will give a bit more power without too much risk to the motor, but it'll reduce your range a bit. Don't overdo it otherwise you might get battery cut-outs - one leg is about right. The shunt sits under the controller end-plate at the opposite end to the wires. here's photos of before and after I did one.
KU63shunt.jpg

KU63solderedshunt.jpg
 
with the 12S lipo you should use the 36V controller, not a 24V controller because it may have 50V caps too.

the 36V controller will have LVC of 30.5V so the 12S lipo would be drawn down to 2.5V under load when it cuts out.

you will need LVC monitoring of the lipo packs.

i found that all the chinese built wheels needed attention. i bot a used Parks wheel truing stand for $25 on CL. easy peasy.
 
Hi again and thanks for all the comments.

I'm been very busy with work so i have not had the time to follow this thread. However, yesterday i got my 24v q100 motor and what seems like a 24 volt ku63 controller (same size). I could not wait to play with it so i put the bike quickly together. I got to try it out on 6s 25C lipo pack yesterday. And It worked, but the speed was moderate.. So my question is: can I drive this controller and motor with a 12s lipo (44v +) without any modifications, d8veh? And would a 350watt controller given me more power?

I agree that the frog case gives a nice build with this small controller inside!

Edit: Another question. The disc rotor from the bikes original wheel does not fit the 6 holes of the q100. Is there any special disc rotor i need for the q100? I looked on the net but id does not seem that there exist different 6 bolts systems.
Edit2: I found out that its probably the folding bike had a odd 160mm system, strange.
 
Yes, you can use 12S of Lipo with your BMS Battery Kit's controller.
 
The 24v controller smokes very well if you connect 12S. I know because I did it by mistake. You need the 36v Ku63 which can handle 12S OK. The KU93 is set for 22 amps, which I think is too much for the Q100/Q85. You can solder yje shunt in the KU63 to get a bit more power, but don't go past about 50%. Soldering up one leg gives about 18 amps, which I would say is a safe maximum for the Q100. It'll work with more, but I can't say how long the gears would last.

All my disks fit all my hub motors, so your disK must be non-standard.
 
Ok, i will go ahead and order a 36v version.

I'm currently running the 24v KU63 with 6s. I guess its built for 7s. Do you think it will withstand 10s?

I have a question regarding the difference between voltage and current. If I solder the shunt 50% i guess this will increase the amount of current given to the motor and hence the acceleration. While increasing the voltage will increase both the acceleration and the max speed?

Btw, my shunt looks a little different. But i guess it is the same thing?
 

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24v one should be OK with 10S. I ran one with a 36v battery which was 42v fully charged.

I've not seen a shunt like that before. It looks like it's already been soldered. What's the rating on the label?
 
The labels reads that is current limited to 12 ampere.

Edit:
I just took the bike for a ride with a watt meter (rc type). Could not read more than ~270 watt maximum while acceleration uphill while the batteries was at 23.0-23.5V. So that's just below 12 ampere.

If the controller can withstand 42V, I'm a bit tempted to try the two 6s lipos in series when they fall down to around 21 volt. :)

Here is a picture of my build. A Chinese folding bike called Kalaq Q5 meets q100. Happy with the looks of the bike, but i don't really like the drivetrain. It feels "sloppy". Wonder what it can be, Crank maybe.
And 3-4 wires from the handlebar to the controller is a bit overkill. Guess i should find a multi-wire cable substitute. And a watt meter reading in front would also be nice :)
 

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d8veh said:
Am I right that you have the 393 rpm version of the motor?

It's actually the 328 rpm. 393 was so tempting but because these bikes were for my fiance and I to ride together for relaxing evening cruises I decided the slightly slower wind would be better (and healthier for the setup, current-wise). I've got a 51V Xlyte 5304 for when I want to go fast by myself :lol:
 
You can't use 6S at 21V. There's nothing left in them at that point and you run the risk of going below 3v cell voltage.

270w is not a lot of power. Mine does 900w with 12S and the 36v KU63 with soldered shunt. Not that I need to use that much power for long, but it's certainly useful to drag my bulk up some fairly steep hills. If I were you, I'd buy a couple of 36v KU63s from BMS battery. Last time for me it worked out at about £30 the pair inc. shipping. Then you can try it at about 48v hot off the charger. The motor will still be very docile with low throttle.

I can't quite see your watt-meter, but it looks like one of those three button ones, in which case you can get the shunt out and move the display to the handlebars. Here's some photos of how to do it. Make sure that the two shunts don't touch each other. The photos are in reverse order with instructions under the photo
http://s451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/d8veh/Watt%20meter/
 
Wow, so you can actually drive the q100 at 900watt for short moments. What do you think is a safe continues power handling for the q100 and the q85?

I have just ordererd more lipo batteries. Found some cheap 4s on ebay. Thinking of first trying the q100 at 10s. But i have also ordered a 36volt ku63 to try out 12s. Need to find a balance between range and power. :)

I have the Watt Meter, bought at ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110859761169&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:1123 Found the shunt inside, so it should be possible.
 
I've run 14S/15 Amps on a fast wind Q100 in a 24" wheel and the stock crimp-on bullet connectors for the phase wires melted their insulation. I don't think one can run enough power though these dinky wires without melting them, to damage the motor. I've gone back to 12S, the sweet spot for the Q100. I'need to leave the controller stock, but with your smaller wheel, you probably are safe enough to mod the shunt.
 
I've been running mine at 17 amps 12S, since I built it. The only problem I had was a bit of stuttering on full throttle after I had the controller off because the crimping of the bullet connectors was a bit loose. After squeezing them tight, no more problems.

It's a bit fiddly to get the shunts unsoldered. Bend the LCD up as far as you dare.
 
i want to convert 2 foldable 20" bikes for me and my wife. For simplicity it will be a front motor. The bike has a 6 speed gear.

I currently have a 48v15AH LiMnCo from BMSbattery which is 13S. (54.5V fully charged) and I would like to use that. Should I get the Q100 24V @ 201rpm or Q100 36V @ 201rpm or the 328rpm? I'm leaning towards Q100 36V seeing that it can handle the 13S, but i'm not sure which rpm is suitable

Which controller should I use? Do i need to mod it?

Ideally i would like to go max speed 35kmh with good hill climbing capability.
 
The 36v 201 rpm Q100 at 48v will only do about 28kph in 20" wheels. You need the 24v 201rpm one with 12S. I think you'll find that 48v battery too big for a folding bike. Where do you plan to fit it. Two Zippy 8aH 6S packs just fit in one of those frog cases, which gives a light, neat and convenient installation. Use the KU63 controller with one leg of the shunt soldered, which works OK at 44v (12S).

You might have to use a rear motor because the forks are too narrow for a motor on decent folding bikes. Which folding bikes are you thinking of.
 
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