Ton of detail questions for my first Q100 build

[schwibsi]

Hello everyone,

I'm finally at the point, when I want to get all the materials for my first 2 builds.
I wanted a very light weight, quiet solution that would be able support at speeds of 25-40kph.

In order to be able to buy everything in one go and have the equipment here for the builds, I still have a lot of details that I need to figure out, so I don't forget anything:

EDIT: I'm updating the questions and solutions here in the initial post.

1. How many wires go into the Q100 motor? (I'm asking, so I can figure out the connector for it)
solved
2 connectors, a 3 pole and a 5 pole connector. I will leave the wiring for the time being and select my connectors later

2. Is the controller the Q100 comes with suitable, or should I buy a different one? (This may be dependent on some of the later questions)
solved
I'll stick with the stock KU63 for the time being

3. Can I remove the spring inside the thumb throttle to keep it in place without pushing it?
I will probably need to look for a different thumb throttle.
I'll deal with this, when the kits are here


4. Can I use the Magura pressure switch to cut the throttle?
Tektro is an option for disc brakes, but they have no brake switches for rim brakes. For the rim brakes with normal cables, the BMS switches can be used. For hydraulic rim brakes, custom hall sensors and the Magura Bionix switches seem to be the only solutions.
I will look into this some more to see, what I can find.



5. Can I add a relay to the brake cut off to implement a brake light? (What kind of signal does the brake cut off use?)
Using the front brake for the throttle cutoff and the rear for the brake light is the best solution I see right now. Once I have the kits here, I will figure out, what signal the KU63's brake cutoff uses and whether I can add a relay that will switch the brake lights.


6. Should I use 10s or 12s Lipo packs?
I was going to go with the fast wind on the Q100 for the 28"trekking bikes as we use the bikes much more around town than to get up steep hills. I'd rather have good support at 35-40kph than having very good climbing ability. We weigh 53 and 82kg respectively but use the bikes to shopping with up to 30kg additional load. They motors are only for assistance.
So, I'm uncertain now. Should I get the slow wind and 12s or the faster wind and 10s or is there another option?
I'll get 12s and both kits. Then I'll try both and see, how they respond.
From the speeds, I have calculated, I am not convinced yet that the slow wind really is the way to go because even at 12s this would result in a top speed of 30kph. We'll see, maybe she'll get the slow wind and I put a fast wind in mine.

solved


7. I can get very easily get 5s and 6s LiPo packs from HobbyKing in Germany). How do I make a 10s balancing cable from 2*5s or 12s from 2*6s?
If I knew, which wire is supposed to go where, I could either repin the 5s connectors to 10s or solder a new one up. Is there a description somewhere, where the wires go? 10s and 12s packs aren't available in the European hobby king warehouse and other suppliers are too expensive.



8. What are the options of freewheels for the rear? (I want to try a rear motor on one of the builds)
7 Speed is what she has right now. If 9 speed is an option, that would be nice, as I still have a 9-gear XT shifter lying around, which she could use. What companies make freewheels that would fit the Q100?



9. What options do are there for switches to engage the assistance up to 6kmh? (I want to cut the throttle when not pedaling using the PAS sensor, and using the brake cut off. but the level of assistance regulated by the thumb throttle)
I'm already in contact with the speedict guys and will get the new wired version to play around with. Soldering and changing connectors would not be an issue. When I have the speedict, what switches would I use for that?
I'll talk to the speedict guys again and find out exactly, how this would work



10. What diameter wire do I need for the connection between controller and motor?
I am not only wondering about the wires to the motor but also the ones from battery to controller
Still no solution on this.


11. Are there any panel mount weatherproof connectors that people here like to use? I want to fit the battery/controller case with 4 connectors, one with thick wires to the motor, one for all the accessories on the bike, one for main charging and one for the balancing wires.
I am looking into industrial connectors right now. I'll update this


12. I've decided to go with the Graupner Ultramat 18 charger. It has a build in power supply and weighs about a kilo, so I could bring it along on trips. At home I could add a converted PC PSU for faster charging. Any objections or better ideas? Could I make a portable charger from a 1010+ with an attached PSU?
The PSU itself is not the issue. I'm just wondering about any portable all in one solutions.
Maybe a 4 pin connector and a 7pin connector on the battery would be the way to go. Then I could parallel the balancing wires and make 2 different cables for the 4 pin connector, one for charging, which parallels both batteries, and one for the controller, which puts them in series.
Still no solution on this.


13. Should I rather put the battery in a box separate from all the other electronics?
I don't have space behind the seat post, so the frog mount is out unfortunately. I've decided to make a pure battery case for the frame and use a handle bar bag for the electronics for the time being. Once I have all the wiring figured out, I may make a second box for all the electronics and mount it to the frame or the steering bar (or whatever it is called)
I don't like the idea of carrying too many different batteries, which all have to be removed for charging.
Even 5Ah would be plenty for 95% of the trips we take. For longer trips I'd make additional battery packs, which can be swapped, once one is depleted.

solved

14. Do I need to mount some sort of BMS or are the electronics of the charger and the speedict enough?
Voltmeter with sound warning should be enough, while mounted.
solved

15. How many wires do I really need to connect and balance 2* 6s packs? There are always xS+1 wires on the balancing connectors. So 6S has 7 wires. I figure that 2 of these are the same as the main leads.So I actually don't need those coming out of the battery and could solder additional small wires to the main leads, which would then connect to the balancing board of the charger. Would that work?
Still no solution on this.

I have a lot more questions, that I will ask later.

Thanks already, guys.

 

[d8veh]

1 Buy the complete kit and the controller has all the correct connectors for the motor. There's three thick phase wires with bullet connectors and a 5-way connector for the hall sensors.
2.The KU63 controller from BMSBattery is perfect. It'll run with 12s Lipos for the speed you want. You'll need to solder the shunt a bit to get the amps up to about 18
3. You can use a zip-tie to dampen the throttle, which is easier than dismantling it and removing the spring. If you do remove the spring, you still need to find a way of damping it because it'll be too loose.
4 You can use the magura pressure switch. You have to be careful about which fluid you use. If you haven't already got one, you could get this set and sell your previous brake.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150740784320?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
5 Not directly.
6 12S for the speed. A 201 rpm motor will give about 37kph max or about 34kph on the flat. The 393rpm will probably be too fast, so won't have the torque to reach that speed.
7 They're commercially available from ebay, but you have to search hard, or you make your own by splicing two together.
8 You need a free-wheel with 11T top gear. 7 speed will be the maximum unless you want to make some extra spacers for the axle and you can spred your drop-outs further. You can get one from http://www.cyclezee.com, if you can't find one locally.
9 If you get a Speedict from http://www.speedict.com, it has all these functions. You'll have to change the connectors on your throttle and PAS sensor. Speedict also sell adapter leads but you still need to do some soldering. BMSbattery did sell some controllers that cut the throttle when not pedalling. I e-mailed them about it, but so far no reply. I think Speedict is your only option.
10 You don't need to worry about that. The motor comes with enough wire to reach the controller.
11 Can't help on that one.
12 Any 12V power supply will work. Sony Playstation ones work quite well, or you can find a thread here somewhere on converting server power supplies for more power. MY 32 amp one is marked PS-3381-1C1
13 You can make a very neat installation if 8aH is enough for the distance you want to travel. Two 6S 8000maH Zippy packs fit nicely in one of those frog cases from BMSBattery and the KU63 controller fits in the compartment underneath, and there's still enough space for the Speedict. I prefer separate batteries for lights and accesseries. I use Ultrafire cells which are now very cheap from Ebay, or take some from an old laptop battery and use your lipo charger to charge them. You can put them in one of those little triangular frame tool-bags. Here's some photos. I left my charger and balance connectors hanging because I don't use it in the rain, but it should be easy to make a more weather-proof solution. The frog battery case gives you the option to carry a spare because the battery case is removable/lockable with a key. Also you can easily remove for charging.

 

[motomech]

I agree with D8veh except for one exception and one comment.

Freewheels up to 10-speeds[40 mm width free wheels]can be used with Q100 in a standard 135 mm drop-out.

Comment-Assuming you are going to use the 36V motor, the fast wind 328 motor can be used in a 24" wheel if you are;

a]A lightweight rider, say not more than 70 Kilos.

b]you are not going to encounter steep hills, say, more than 7%

Otherwise, best to use the slow wind motor.

The Q100 kits are very easy to install, link my build thread in my sig.

 

[schwibsi]

Thanks you guys.

About the motor speeds:

The both of us aren't too heavy, I guess and the amount of support we need at low speeds is rather limited.
Anywhere, we ride, we can do at least 10kph under our own power and any hills steeper than that are not, what we're building the bikes for. I'm not going to sacrifice high speeds for the sake of climbing ability, which takes up a miniscule part of the riding time.
Wheel size is 28" though.

 

[motomech]

Hello everyone,

I'm finally at the point, when I want to get all the materials for my first 2 builds.
I wanted a very light weight, quiet solution that would be able support at speeds of 25-40kph.

In order to be able to buy everything in one go and have the equipment here for the builds, I still have a lot of details that I need to figure out, so I don't forget anything:

EDIT: I'm updating the questions and solutions here in the initial post.

1. How many wires go into the Q100 motor? (I'm asking, so I can figure out the connector for it)
solved
2 connectors, a 3 pole and a 5 pole connector. I will leave the wiring for the time being and select my connectors later

2. Is the controller the Q100 comes with suitable, or should I buy a different one? (This may be dependent on some of the later questions)
solved
I'll stick with the stock KU63 for the time being

3. Can I remove the spring inside the thumb throttle to keep it in place without pushing it?
I will probably need to look for a different thumb throttle.
Still no solution on this.



4. Can I use the Magura pressure switch to cut the throttle?
I will have to look into the Tektro brakes. I have a set of Magura HS11 and Julies here. The HS11s are on my bike right now. My frame supports disc brakes. My gf's frame does not. I have a NuVinci in the back, which does not support disc brakes. So, the plan was, to put the Julie in the front of mine and leave the HS11 in the rear and put the front HS11 in hers and get another hydraulic rim brake for her. She has Shimano XT V-brakes in hers, which I am not happy with. Too much travel and not adustable very well. So the brakes are going to go into the bike of the little one. If Tektro makes a rim brake version of the e-bike brakes, that would be excellent to get for her rear brake. My plan is to only attach the brake sensors for the rear.
Still no solution on this.

5. Can I add a relay to the brake cut off to implement a brake light? (What kind of signal does the brake cut off use?)
Still no solution on this.


6. Should I use 10s or 12s Lipo packs?
I was going to go with the fast wind on the Q100 for the 28"trekking bikes as we use the bikes much more around town than to get up steep hills. I'd rather have good support at 35-40kph than having very good climbing ability. We weigh 53 and 82kg respectively but use the bikes to shopping with up to 30kg additional load. They motors are only for assistance.
So, I'm uncertain now. Should I get the slow wind and 12s or the faster wind and 10s or is there another option?
Still no solution on this.


7. I can get very easily get 5s and 6s LiPo packs from HobbyKing in Germany). How do I make a 10s balancing cable from 2*5s or 12s from 2*6s?
If I knew, which wire is supposed to go where, I could either repin the 5s connectors to 10s or solder a new one up. Is there a description somewhere, where the wires go? 10s and 12s packs aren't available in the European hobby king warehouse and other suppliers are too expensive
Still no solution on this.


8. What are the options of freewheels for the rear? (I want to try a rear motor on one of the builds)
7 Speed is what she has right now. If 9 speed is an option, that would be nice, as I still have a 9-gear XT shifter lying around, which she could use. What companies make freewheels that would fit the Q100?
Still no solution on this.


9. What options do are there for switches to engage the assistance up to 6kmh? (I want to cut the throttle when not pedaling using the PAS sensor, and using the brake cut off. but the level of assistance regulated by the thumb throttle)
I'm already in contact with the speedict guys and will get the new wired version to play around with. Soldering and changing connectors would not be an issue. When I have the speedict, what switches would I use for that?
Still no solution on this.



10. What diameter wire do I need for the connection between controller and motor?
I am not only wondering about the wires to the motor but also the ones from battery to controller
Still no solution on this.


11. Are there any panel mount weatherproof connectors that people here like to use? I want to fit the battery/controller case with 4 connectors, one with thick wires to the motor, one for all the accessories on the bike, one for main charging and one for the balancing wires.
Still no solution on this.


12. I've decided to go with the Graupner Ultramat 18 charger. It has a build in power supply and weighs about a kilo, so I could bring it along on trips. At home I could add a converted PC PSU for faster charging. Any objections or better ideas? Could I make a portable charger from a 1010+ with an attached PSU?
The PSU itself is not the issue. I'm just wondering about any portable all in one solutions.
Maybe a 4 pin connector and a 7pin connector on the battery would be the way to go. Then I could parallel the balancing wires and make 2 different cables for the 4 pin connector, one for charging, which parallels both batteries, and one for the controller, which puts them in series.
Still no solution on this.


13. Should I rather put the battery in a box separate from all the other electronics?
I don't have space behind the seat post, so the frog mount is out unfortunately. I've decided to make a pure battery case for the frame and use a handle bar bag for the electronics for the time being. Once I have all the wiring figured out, I may make a second box for all the electronics and mount it to the frame or the steering bar (or whatever it is called)
I don't like the idea of carrying too many different batteries, which all have to be removed for charging.
Even 5Ah would be plenty for 95% of the trips we take. For longer trips I'd make additional battery packs, which can be swapped, once one is depleted.

solved

14. Do I need to mount some sort of BMS or are the electronics of the charger and the speedict enough?
Still no solution on this.



I have a lot more questions, that I will ask later.

Thanks already, guys.

I remember you now, you are the guy that makes thing 2 or 3 times more complicated than they need to be This is the World's most simple Ebike kit!
Ok, for the last time;

1. How many wires go into the Q100 motor? (I'm asking, so I can figure out the connector for it)
solved
2 connectors, a 3 pole and a 5 pole connector. I will leave the wiring for the time being and select my connectors later

All connectors are supplied in the kit and they work fine. If tou want to change some of them out later because you don't like the look or whatever, it would be easy to do so.

3. Can I remove the spring inside the thumb throttle to keep it in place without pushing it?
I will probably need to look for a different thumb throttle.
Still no solution on this.

I have used three different thumb throttles in the past and the one in this kit is far and away the best. The spring is very light and there is no reason to take it out. If you want cruise control, the CC in the KU63 works well.
Having said that, I prefer the half twist throttle, which you can add to your order for $4 or $5 ea.

Can I use the Magura pressure switch to cut the throttle?
I will have to look into the Tektro brakes. I have a set of Magura HS11 and Julies here. The HS11s are on my bike right now. My frame supports disc brakes. My gf's frame does not. I have a NuVinci in the back, which does not support disc brakes. So, the plan was, to put the Julie in the front of mine and leave the HS11 in the rear and put the front HS11 in hers and get another hydraulic rim brake for her. She has Shimano XT V-brakes in hers, which I am not happy with. Too much travel and not adustable very well. So the brakes are going to go into the bike of the little one. If Tektro makes a rim brake version of the e-bike brakes, that would be excellent to get for her rear brake. My plan is to only attach the brake sensors for the rear.
Still no solution on this.

As pointed out in previous threads, D8veh has designed a nice, simple and effective work-a-round for this using a reed switch.

5. Can I add a relay to the brake cut off to implement a brake light? (What kind of signal does the brake cut off use?)
Still no solution on this.

Same answer as #4 The controller will not power a brake lite, depending on what bulb you use, you will need a sm. 6V or 12V battery

6. Should I use 10s or 12s Lipo packs?
I was going to go with the fast wind on the Q100 for the 28"trekking bikes as we use the bikes much more around town than to get up steep hills. I'd rather have good support at 35-40kph than having very good climbing ability. We weigh 53 and 82kg respectively but use the bikes to shopping with up to 30kg additional load. They motors are only for assistance.
So, I'm uncertain now. Should I get the slow wind and 12s or the faster wind and 10s or is there another option?
Still no solution on this.

You are not understanding something here. The problem with a mini-motor in a BIG wheel is it doesn't produce enough power to add anything because it can't overcome the wind resistence above 20 or so mph. Going from 12S to 10S would just make things worse. The slow wind in a 28" wheel is your only option. Voltage could INCREASED later if you make a charging solution.

7. I can get very easily get 5s and 6s LiPo packs from HobbyKing in Germany). How do I make a 10s balancing cable from 2*5s or 12s from 2*6s?
If I knew, which wire is supposed to go where, I could either repin the 5s connectors to 10s or solder a new one up. Is there a description somewhere, where the wires go? 10s and 12s packs aren't available in the European hobby king warehouse and other suppliers are too expensive
Still no solution on this.

HK Lipo comes with balance cables/connectors. Your charger should come with two 6S ports and if you are only running 5Ah packs, so why do you need to make anything?

8. What are the options of freewheels for the rear? (I want to try a rear motor on one of the builds)
7 Speed is what she has right now. If 9 speed is an option, that would be nice, as I still have a 9-gear XT shifter lying around, which she could use. What companies make freewheels that would fit the Q100?
Still no solution on this.

You have the same number of free wheel options as I told you last time, one! DNP is the only manufacturer that offers a free wheel with an 11T sm. cog.

12. I've decided to go with the Graupner Ultramat 18 charger. It has a build in power supply and weighs about a kilo, so I could bring it along on trips. At home I could add a converted PC PSU for faster charging. Any objections or better ideas? Could I make a portable charger from a 1010+ with an attached PSU?
The PSU itself is not the issue. I'm just wondering about any portable all in one solutions.
Maybe a 4 pin connector and a 7pin connector on the battery would be the way to go. Then I could parallel the balancing wires and make 2 different cables for the 4 pin connector, one for charging, which parallels both batteries, and one for the controller, which puts them in series.
Still no solution on this.

If you need a faster charging rate, buy a more powerful balance charger or consider bulk charging.
Nobody tries the use a balancing charger as an on-board charger. The idea is you bulk charge on the road and balance when you get home. Consider a 48V Meanwel as an on-board charger. You may or may not need to add current limiting, depending on the model Meanwell.

14. Do I need to mount some sort of BMS or are the electronics of the charger and the speedict enough?
Still no solution on this.

No, you do not need a BMS, only an alarm or cut-off for the LVC. If you want to get tricky, the KU63's LVC can be altered.

I have a lot more questions, that I will ask later.

No doubt, just BUY the stuff and get on with it.

 

[d8veh]

Regarding the speed of the motors: The axle and core is easy to remove leaving the hub still attached to the rim and spokes. The motors are very cheap s0 buy a 201rpm motor in the wheel and a separate highspeed motor (not in a wheel). If the first one isn't fast enough, you can swap the core in about 15 minutes to try the faster one. My gut feel is the same as Motomech: The motor'll not have enough power to go the speed it wants to . You're not very heavy, so it might work as mine can drag my 100kg to a steady 20 mph on the flat, It's a 24v 201rpm with 12S (48v) in a 20" wheel. It's probably the same (powerwise and speedwise) as the 36v 393rpm, but I have lower gearing with the 20" wheel.

Another option with the throttle is to add or change it to a potentiometer throttle. On my Dahon, I only use the potentiometer, which is activated by a simple switch. The potentiometer sets the speed and the switch or brakes switch it off.

The kits come with switched brake levers for cable brakes, so you can use a hydraulic brake on the front and cable brake on the rear, with the switch only on the rear. If you had two cable brakes, you could use one for the brake light and the other to switch off the controller, or you could use the switched Tektro set for the controller and a cable rear for your brake light - loads of options, but you can't have everything.

If you get the Speedict, you don't need any switches. It's all software controlled.The only thing you could use a switch for is the 6kph throttle function.

I've got loads of LVC alarms, but I've never used one yet. Instead, I just use a voltmeter, but there's always a risk that you forget to charge one half of your pack; however, you'd see that youu're starting off with much lower voltage than normal, so it's unlikely that you'd do it. This seems to be the best voltmeter: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180888615101?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Like Motomech says, just buy the kit and get started. They're so cheap that you can use it as a learning experience, and you can probably sell it on Ebay for more than you paid for it if it doesn't do what you want. Let the fun begin!

 

[motomech]

Yes, the only true "Kit" question from that entire list is the motor speeds, and I think they have been definitively answered. The fast wind in a big wheel is not going to work unless you are a pro rider, and more Importantly, want to ride like one all the time. By then, you will have left her in the dust.
The same applies to her. With lighter weight and smaller wheel, MAYBE a fast wind could be used, but does she really want go 30 mph plus and pedal like the devil on any kind of hill?
As to BMS Battery stuff questions, they really don't have many accessories that cost more than $15. If you are not sure about, say the throttle style, Grab a couple different ones for $10. Obviously, we all don't want to spend more than we need to, but if you are going to start worrying about A few dollars here and there, I can tell you now you are getting into the wrong hobby.
You WILL start collecting Do-dads and Gizmos and will have an ever increasing in size "spares" box. There are no "set" solutions and pretty much everybody here will try one or more "tacks" to the things they want to add or change, it's part of the fun in "building" one's own Ebike. But by aNd large, it's a process that starts once you get rolling.
The one area you seem shaky is the Lipo and if you want to keep the costs down to the bare minimum, forget it and get BMS Battery batteries.It costs everybody one way or another to learn how to make Lipo packs and charge them. There is no such thing as a fool-proof Lipo pack and the closest there is is going to cost you extra. That would be going with 2 X 8000 mAh and forget about paralleling and carrying extras. But they cost almost double the 5000 mAh's. If you bought several LiCoMg batteries, you will have several chargers and solutions become much more simple. Buy an extra more powerful charger, parallel two that come with the batteries, etc. And they make a good on-board chaRger.
But if you want to stay with Lipo, start reading and I fully well expect that you would have "lot's more questions". Those, we would be happy to try an answer.

"So, will he buy the kits and get rolling?"

Still no solution on this

 

[schwibsi]

I understand, how all these questions may be quite annoying, so thank you for bearing with me.

The reason I'm asking is not because I want to make things overly complicated or am hesitant to finally start with the builds, I just want to keep mistakes to a minimum. If I forget to buy something from BMS, they'll charge enormous amounts of money just for shipping alone. The 10 or 15 bucks for some switches or connectors are not the issue.
Knowing, that I can easily swap the motor inside the wheel is an incredibly useful piece of information that will make things a lot easier for me.

I'll have a look into the potentiometer throttles. How do the regular ones work? Is there no poti inside a thumb or twisgrip throttle?

The foolproof chargin is acutally for her benefit, so she can recharge the batteries without having to think about it too much.

 

[d8veh]

Normal throttle has a hall sensor and two magnets. It has a 5v supply and a return signal wire that varies between approx 1v and 4v depending on the throttle (magnets) position. A 10k potentiometer does the same thing, so you can use it as a throttle with a switch on either the +5v or the signal wire, or you can do what I do and use a two or three position switch to switch from one to the other signal wire and share the 5v supply so that you can switch between normal throttle and cruise (potentiometer throttle)