Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

[chrisbr]

actually the only time i saw the thing is from that guy selling a kit in US:
http://www.e-bikerig.com/

Since the picture and video didn't show the button quite well, I asked the guy about the ON and OFF of is kit
here's is the anwser:
"The switch is a pressure activated button. The motor will only operate when you engage it with a squeeze of your hand."

if you take a look at the videos he made, you can see that when installing it, he goes quite fast without having to pull out the grip...
http://www.e-bikerig.com/videos/

You can also see it in the "The Hill Climb Comparison" on the same page

but sorry, i don't have a direct link to buy the button...i guess you could ask the guy directly..

 

[chas58]

An all out signal isn’t that bad on a small Q100 motor. My bike is pretty light and fast – I only use the motor when going over 20mph (or when accelerating). When going slower than that it just feels rather silly to be using a motor (it doesn’t take much to cruise at 15mph on these bikes).

You will know more when you try it, but part throttle on a Q100 isn’t very much power.

For the throttle on a road bike, I do not have any good solution. The best I can come up with is:
- Use a flat bar so I can use a handle bar throttle
- Use a PAS so a handlebar throttle is not needed.

Let us know what you find if you do. It probably wouldn't be too hard to wire up a spring loaded switch as an on/off button.

Currently I have a thumb throttle tacked onto the end of the bullhorn. Its not a very elegant solution. The diameter of the bullhorn is bigger than the diameter needed for the handlebar throttles.

hmmmm so no real solution with an "aerobar" with brakes lever at the end....wish there was some kind of "strap-on thingny" throttle...the only one I saw was a press button, velcro thing, but would give "all out" signal...0w or 250w....not an option here...if i find something I'll come back here an post it.

No PAS for me...not now anyway

Thanks !

 

[d8veh]

No PAS for me...not now anyway

A throttle on a Q100 used the way you plan would be little more than an on/off switch. Use a PAS and put a switch on the red wire so that you can disable it when you don't want power. You'll need an inline brake sensor on your rear brake cable somewhere. You can spend a bit more and get a controller with an LCD display where you can set the power level at the touch of a button including disabling the PAS. They're a lot easier to use than a throttle.

 

[majornelson]

You can spend a bit more and get a controller with an LCD display

I have the greenbikekit LED controller http://www.greenbikekit.com/index.php/accessories/led-display.html for my Q100. Is the bmsbattery LED display and S series controller a better kit overall? http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/548-s-led770-e-bike-led-meter.html

It works reasonably well but it is a little awkward to set the power levels as you have to hit the plus or minus buttons and move up/down sequentially. I have PAS only but would like the one button throttle for that extra boost. In addition to three levels of PAS it has an "extra" fourth level which I believe is full power when pedaling. The button at full power would be more convenient.

 

[d8veh]

Is the bmsbattery LED display and S series controller a better kit overall?

It'sb better, but whether it's overkill is a matterof opinion. You get the nice display for speed/distance etc., The buttons are more accessible and easier to use than the LED one.

 

[chrisbr]

Hey Chas, i was looking a bit around for battery and found this one that would do the trick (assisting a road bike)

Li-ion 36v9A
http://www.greenbikekit.com/index.php/36v-9ah-panasonic-lithium-ion-battery.html
(out of stock for now)

30A discharge, small size, case and fitting to the frame "easy" (well i have to see about that..). 2.7kg (case included ?), price seem also all right...wonder if they do it in 15A

Did this one made it to your "maybe this battery" list ? Or any comments ?

Or wow, this one would be amazing for me, not to much infos on it since the news came out not too long ago...shipping 2014, but have not to much specs at the time:
http://electricbikereport.com/allcell-launches-industrys-first-stand-alone-premium-electric-bike-battery/#more-9418
Anyone has infos on that one ? Just email AllCell to get a bit more specs.

then again, just checked the prices of AllCell Batteries....piiouuuu, they don t sale cheap ! is there a way around to buy it "cheaper" ?

 

[d8veh]

Look on Aliexpress (or anywhere else) for 11.6aH 36v batteries. Not only do you get 26% more range for the same weight, but also you get a high discharge rate.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/36V-e-bike-battery-High-discharge-Panasonic-battery-cell-Multi-Fit-10S4P/116217_754740045.html
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/36V-WaterBottle-E-bike-battery-Panasonic-cell-NCR18650/116217_902910322.html

 

[chrisbr]

chas58 wrote: Futue plans: swap out the 36v 201rpm motor for a 24v 201 rpm motor (which will run 300rpm at 36v). Build a small light 2.0KG 36v8ah battery that can mount in the frame triangle

did you manage to make the 2kg 36v8ah battery in frame triangle (LiFePo4 ? lipo ? NiMaCO ?)

chas58 wrote: The lightness ease of use a 36v Lithium-Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt-Oxide, or LiNiMnCoO2/NMC is my current favorite. I haven’t bought it yet, as I am using a 36v10AH LiFePo4 battery. Works fine, just weighs a ridiculous 10lbs (that is almost half the bike weight without battery).

For a 36v Lithium-Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt-Oxide or LiNiMnCoO2/NMC: any one in mind ?
the BMS 36V 10Ah Li-Ion NiCoMn http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/183-36v-10ah-lithium-ion-electric-bicycle-battery-pack.html looks allright
and
the BMS frog battery seems nice, but quite heavy for a small battery like that...and 700 cycle is border line ok...http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/17-36v-lithium-ion-little-frog-abs-shell-ebike-battery-pack.html.

Funny how the 36v10A lifepo4 at bms battery is 1.5kg lighter then the 36v9A lifepo4 one...any reason for this ?
10A: http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/495-36v-10ah-lithium-ion-electric-bicycle-battery-pack.html
9A: http://www.bmsbattery.com/packs/558-36v-10ah-38120-lifepo4-battery-12-cells-ebike-battery-pack.html

 

[chas58]

Geeze, I had a long reply to this, but I don’t see it here. Guess I forgot to submit it!

Good finds on the battery. That AllCell thing looks interesting. My favorite design for a 36v10ah sized battery is the bosch batteries that are so popular in Germany. That would be aboutr a $700-$800 battery as I recall (Not that it would be easy to find one of these in the US). Paul at EM3ev is looking at creating a downtube mounted case similar to that too.


Bosch:

That greenbikekit Panasonic battery is designed to mount on the seat tube – is that what you want? See the diagrams. I would be happier with the downtube mounted battery.

The AllCell batteries are not cheap. I’m not sure that is the best bet.
The problem with BMSBattery is often their specs are misleading or missing. When questioned, I have found that their 18650 based packs are 0.8-1C rated. Maybe that has changed, but you have to ask (and hope they give you a good reply). C rate can greatly influence the cost and performance of a battery.
Bottom line: an inexpensive battery that can not reliably put out more than 9amps is not going to make you happy.

My favorite battery is the stuff that Paul puts together at EM3ev. He has several types of cells available that he can build a pack off of. Just tell him what you are after, and he’ll put something together for you with good customer service and at a fair price (much less than Bosche or Allcell, but not as cheap as some of the stuff that BMSbattery tries to pass off to people. Tell him what you want (i.e. 36v10ah Samsung ICR18650-22 (NCM cell, 3C rated, approximately 2.1Ah).

(read more here:
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=158 )

He has 3 types of 18650 cells available, and it looks like he is starting to put info on that on his website.

That BMSbattery bottle battery would be fine, but last time I asked they were 1C batteries (although they may have changed batteries since then), and that isn’t going to cut it.

So my plans: buy something in the spring (as I won’t be riding much this time of year). Having EM3 build something for me is the best bet (quality, service, price). If he has the downtube mount case developed by then, that would be my preference, but if not, some type of frame bag may be the route to go. I’m looking at a 36v10ah battery in the 5-6 lb range.

 

[chas58]

Yeah, BMS battery is hard to figure out.

The weights don’t seem accurate, although I will say those headway high:C rate batteries are a bit heavier than the regular LiFePo4 cells.

Before buying anything from BMS, I would explicitly ask:
What is the C rate?
What is the measured weight of the battery (although they will probably just read the web page for ya).

Sometimes if you look at the individual battery cells page, you can get some good details that are not listed on the battery pack
http://www.bmsbattery.com/51-battery-cell?n=20&id_category=51

But they don’t always list all of their cells here (they have removed the 18650 cells and specifications), the cells they list here constantly change (makes sense as their inventory and the technology are changing fast with batteries), and it is a PITA to try to match up what is in their battery packs with their individual cells.

I think a light 3C 18650 cell based pack is great for the Q100 motor. I would stick with Paul (EM3ev) because he doesn’t sell low priced junk, can customize it for you (where feasible) and has good service.

 

[chrisbr]

I would stick with Paul (EM3ev) because he doesn’t sell low priced junk, can customize it for you (where feasible) and has good service.

I've been on this website before but since every battery there was way more bigger then what i wanted i quickly closed my window..(38v20a, 50v, 75v, etc)....it's possible to ask him a specific size ??...lets say 36v12 ah, 38v10Ah...well you get the idea, small sized, not (too) heavy, can make a 24v q100 spin at the 300rpm you tried... i think that would make a good little set up...

never mind, i just read your first post that i miss out at first

thanks ! that's great info ! i'll be sure to get in touch with Paul at EM3ev since, that's exactly what i'm looking for, i'll keep you posted on my research. I was about to go with BMS but the chat i had with them earlier is not to put me in confidence... (mmm french by the way so maybe some expression here doesn't fit...anyway..) Thanks again !

 

[chas58]

He can build the 18650 cells into any reasonable configuration you want, the biggest limitation being the BMS available. So you can’t just pick any voltage, but will get a voltage that matches the BMS.

Note: the A123 batteries are 20AH, so those are going to lead to big packs. But the Samsung batteries are 18650 and can be built in various combinations.

Your French to English is fine. No one has much confidence in BMS after chatting with them.

Ah, Montréal, Je me souviens. I was just there a few weeks ago enjoying those wonderful bike lanes gorgeous fall weather and some Bixi bikes (bummer I didn’t have my own bike as I originally built that blue one specifically for Montréal type riding, and then just recently made it electric). My ebike might be a little fast for Montréal though.

 

[chrisbr]

Ah, Montréal, Je me souviens. I was just there a few weeks ago enjoying those wonderful bike lanes gorgeous fall weather and some Bixi bikes

Maybe I'm too much use to it but much still need to be done there ! I'm gonna be in Amsterdam in 2 days and THAT is the way to go...

My ebike might be a little fast for Montréal though

ya....32k limit for ebikes...well assisted, after that you can go to the speed "you want"... but since I know someone who have a ebike that goes a 70k-80k a hour, i dont feel so bad if i go above 32 assisted

So I'll contact Paul and see what he can do. Did he gave you some infos on when he want to do the "frame battery" ? or anything useful on the concept ?

 

[chas58]

He was hoping to be able to offer them for sale ~nov 1st (now). Progress is going kinda slow on the frame mount battery, but has built one prototype (10S12P). The pictures look like it might be bigger than what I would prefer (10S5P would get me 37v10Ah with a normal 18650 battery) Getting a BMS to fit looks to be tricky and that has been causing the delay. Might be good for him to get some feedback from you so he knows there is more interest.

Well, Monteal has come a long way in the last years, and is in better shape than any city in North America I have been to. Although my favorite city is still Detroit because we have roads that are 5 lanes wide, but have very little traffic, so there is plenty of room for both cars and bikes. Plenty of empty roads, and lots of new businesses and hangouts to discover (not to mention the waterfront and island).

 

[chrisbr]

I learn every day here but there's one thing i don t understand, if you could help me with this, it would be nice. I understand the concept of the Volt(V) and Amps, but I can t get to understand the "S" and "P"...serie and parallel ? how do you multiply the think and what is the point of having those mesures if you can convert it to V and A....do you have something i can read on ES or maybe just a quick breefing ? would be great !

I just message Paul ! let s play the waiting game now...
AllCell never answer my email concerning my questions about the summit serie....well it s only been 3-4 days...but still...in email world it s a long time..

 

[d8veh]

Say the cells are nominally 3.6v and 2aH. 10 in a line (series 10S) makes 36v 2aH.
5 side by side (parallel 5P) makes 3.6v 10aH.
So if you make an array of 50 cells 5 wide and 10 long (10S5P), you get 36v 10aH.

 

[chas58]

The Series and Parallel depends a lot on what your base cell is (Lipo, LiFePo4, 18650 Li-Ion. etc)

In this case we are talking 18650 cells which typically are 3.6v and just over 2Ah.

Oh, Dev8 posted – yeah, what he said…

Paul has recently started selling 3 different types of 18650 packs, so the voltage and amp hours are a bit different (one is 2.8AH). The A123 cells are much different yet again. And LiFePo4 is often 3.2V, so you are going to need more in series to get 36 volts (which is part of the reason why those packs are bigger and heavier).

 

[chrisbr]

thanks for the ABC guys... like i said, always learning

 

[d8veh]

thanks for the ABC guys... like i said, always learning

We all had to start somewhere!

 

[chrisbr]

ok, got news from Paul, a while ago actually, but didn't take the time to come back here to post it:

em3ev website: http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=common/home

-battery pack (BMS not ready yet, so no shipping for now, but it's matter of a few weeks):
-from 36V 10Ah, up to 36V 16.5Ah
-300 to 500 US $ approx.
-1 case fits all for now, fits on bottles holes, easy to remove
-3 differents types of Samsung cells (you choose, see more on website)
-forgot to ask about # of cycles of the cells..
-does not integrate a controller for now

image:


looks a lot like another one i saw on the web, probably exactly the same in fact...:

 

[chas58]

I think that is the best bet for a small battery. Yeah, I have seen that top picture before. The battery looks huge in that picture, but judging from the height of the headtube, it is probably a tiny frame (14" - 16"?). Thanks for the fat bike picture - that gives the proportions of the battery in what looks to be a more normal sized frame. It does look similar size/shape to those Bosch ebike batteries so popular in Germany. One thing for certain, Paul has some high quality batteries to put in there. Certainly a quality alternative to the questionable things BMS battery sells (*see below)

To answer your questions on the batteries, read the details for a larger pack using the same batteries (obviously the weight and power will be smaller with the smaller battery pack, but most everything else applies).

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=158

From above link: Cycle Life estimated at 500-700 cycles (to 80% Retained) with 100% Charge and 100% discharge cycles. Cycle life is extended (possibly doubled) by charging to 90% and limiting discharge to 90%, so you use 80% of the available capacity (most, but not all of the time).



*PS: here is greenbikekits stats on their bottle battery which is using a the typical 1C bottle battery building block. At least they are more open and direct with what it can do:
7. Continuous max discharge current: 10A
8. Pulse discharge current 25A at 10sec

 

[jateureka]

image:
View attachment 1

looks a lot like another one i saw on the web, probably exactly the same in fact...:

you can buy those batteries here http://lectriccycles.com/collections/all

I have seen them on another site a bit cheaper, think it was about $900 for crank drive + battery, .. Uses Panasonic cells. http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Newe...ic-bike-e-bike-bottle-battery/1436520888.html

 

[iliew]

I am interested in a similar configuration that chas58 has done. I am a similar road bike rider typically cruising at 20-22mph now on my 700c recumbent, desiring similar effects that chas58 has achieved. Thanks for the great info. In addition to the 24V Q100 200rpm motor, I am interested in minimizing the cables and having no throttle or any additional controls on my handlebars. What are your thoughts regarding:

1. The BMS bottle battery 36V 10.4Ah with small controller in the base. Since I am on a recumbent this would be mounted under my seat very near the motor in my rear hub. What are thoughts of this battery-controller combo? http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/567-bottle-ebike-battery-controller.html

2. Permanently ON throttle only. No PAS. The hidden wire brake sensor only to cut power when I brake and when I am stationary http://www.bmsbattery.com/accessory/459-hwbs-hidden-wire-brake-sensor.html I am wondering however, when the brake is released will the power be back "on" the bike? The absolute best is if the controller can be set to turn in the power after a certain speed such as 5mph or 10mph but I guess this depends on the controller and LCD console capability.

Thanks!

 

[d8veh]

The controller looks for a low throttle signal before it gives power, so the minimum you need is a switch on the throttle. You can make an adjustable power control by using a thumb throttle with the spring removed, then use your brakes to switch it on/off while you're riding. You can do the same with a 10K potentiometer as a speed control.

What's wrong with a PAS sensor? It's a lot more convenient.

For 22mph, you should use the new Q100H tat has more torque and 260rpm version. The 328 rpm one will be very inefficient if you use to to start from a stop like you suggested.

 

[samsavvas]

Hi Folks,

Very interesting discussion - thanks to all!

I'm interested in building a rear wheel for a 'fast' 20" upright bike. It currently has an 11-28 or 32 cassette and double front chain rings - 48/56 I think. I would use the assisted setup for long distance commuting. I would only ride with PAS although a throttle over-ride might be useful (I'm not sure about this over-ride). I would prefer to mover to torque-assist PAS or a similar more sophisticated cadence-based PAS mode at some stage. I only need 25km/h max (that's about 15mp/h) although up to 30kph would be nice.

I want to keep things as simple and stealthy as possible. I'm thinking small 24 or 36v battery, maybe 10-15ah that I can fit in a smallish vertically oriented seatpost bag or small front Carradice pannier. Maximising range at the speeds mentioned is my biggest priority. I'd be happy with PAS and a 2 or 3 power level switch as well as on/off and ebrakes.

I'm happy to build my own wheel. I was thinking of the Bafang GBK-100CST motor in 328rpm. Would it be suitable for what I want? Can it fit in a 135mm rear dropout?Is it available in black anywhere (or could I just paint it black?) What other bits and pieces should I get? Could I start with one of the cheaper clip0on PAS sensors initially and go to a more sophisticated one such as GRIN sell a bit later? And would it work wih a CA Version 3?

My apologies for the cascade of questions. I know a number of these points may have been dealt with in previous discussion but I'm afraid I have trouble pulling it all together, especially given there's quite a bit of presumed knowledge and jargon in there. This is my favourite bike (almost ) and I want to get the installation right.

many thanks,

Savvas.