Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

[chas58]

I recently had a Chines Q100 wheel build (20") fail in less than a mile. I will never again order a spoked wheel online. Since I must pay the bike shop to true them anyways, I just order spokes and assemble the wheel 1X. The cost is about the same as the postage, to make my own, and the quality is tons better.
Just sayin".
otherDoc

I'm with ya on that one. Besides, it is nice being able to pick your own rims, and have the front rim match the rear.

The irony with me is that I had to order a special spoke wrench for the larger size on the Chinese build, which arrived a few hours after my wheel failed (spokes basically came undone, nothing too serious in the long run). If I had only had the tool 24 hours earlier I could have fixed it before it failed and not had to call someone to come pick me & the bike up. Kinda frustrating being stranded on my commute with a wheel which is unride-able.

 

[longwise_suck]

Thanks for this great thread ive been looking for a slower set up for the wife to ride, it needs to be simple and light im thinking maybe 5 ah of lipo 36 ish volts for gentle acceleration a small controller perhaps 12 to 14 amps, no throttle just a pas set up will be fine, i had never considerd the cute motors until i read this

 

[motomech]

I have one of my bikes set up to ride on a really long(6 mile) boardwalk and since I don't need speed, it is set-up as you described.
Q100 260 H in 26"frt. wheel.
Either the 10 Amp 36V 6-FET or the 17 Amp 36V 9-FET controller from Elifebike.
5000 mAh of 20C Lipo configured @ 9S(35V).
Top speed is around 17 mph.
The 10 A controller is a little slow and boring for me, perfect for her.

The most important thing when building a Lipo powered Ebike for The S.O.is a hard and fast LVC.
The ELB 36V controllers shut-down @32.4V(tested), which works out to a near perfect cell 3.65V.

The BMS B. sine wave controllers to not play well, with Lipo.
At bicycle speeds on the flat boardwalk, range is awesome, I can do a round trip on 5 Ah.
Although I am a Turnigy Guy, for a sm. pack, I would look at the Zippy 5800 mAh.
No bigger than the Turnigy 20C 5000 mAh and more range.
Only gauge you need is a cheap 2-wire mini-Voltmeter.
second link below.

 

[longwise_suck]

Thanks motomech, thats a really nice setup, it needs to just assist her rather than mine which if i feel like it i assist it, thanks for the lvc info on those controllers thats been causing some chin scratching as no matter what i tell her she wold ride them to zero volts that lvc is perfect on the controller, after looking at your thread i was supprised at how small those cute motors are i think one of them on the front would be ideal can you order them from anywhere else than BMS Battery? they have screwed me for the last time so i need to find a new supplier

 

[toniovelo]

@ Momotech: find you that Q100H has more torque than old Q100 ??? Thanks.

My Q100 (old) turn with 36v and 6 fet controller at 17A, it's nice setup i think...

 

[motomech]

Thanks motomech, thats a really nice setup, it needs to just assist her rather than mine which if i feel like it i assist it, thanks for the lvc info on those controllers thats been causing some chin scratching as no matter what i tell her she wold ride them to zero volts that lvc is perfect on the controller, after looking at your thread i was supprised at how small those cute motors are i think one of them on the front would be ideal can you order them from anywhere else than BMS Battery? they have screwed me for the last time so i need to find a new supplier

... can you order them from anywhere else than BMS Battery?

Yes, you could order everything from Elifebike.

 

[motomech]

@ Momotech: find you that Q100H has more torque than old Q100 ??? Thanks.

My Q100 (old) turn with 36v and 6 fet controller at 17A, it's nice setup i think...

find you that Q100H has more torque than old Q100 ?

Yes, I think the "H"versions do feel more powerful. How much is hard to say.

The only direct(bike to bike)comparsion possible would be the 201 standard to the 201 H and I do not have a 201 standard.

But I have done some indirect comparsions, one was;

A friend and I did a side by side drag race;

He has a MXUS 260, 36V Li-Ion battery and a 20 Amp Infineon controller.

I had a 260 H, 10S lipo (38V?) and a ELB 17 Amp controller. I weigh 50 lb.s more.

From a dead stop, the Cute H moved quicker(gears) to a couple spaces in front of the MXUS.

Eventually, the MXUS passes the Cute on it's way to a higher top speed(1 to 2 mph faster).

Slight inclines slowed the Cute down, but did not effect the MXUS.

I think my extra weight caused to results in the last two, but I think it could be said that if everything(Volts, controller and weight)were the same, the two motors would be very close in performance.

Given that the MXUS is a 10% larger motor, I think the performance of the H was impressive.

I do know that my 328 standard in a 24"wheel would not have kept up.

BMS Battery claims that the H "has 30% more torque" and when he compared them, D8veh felt it was more like 10%.

I think the value is in between, probably closer to Dave's impression, say, 15% more powerful.

On the bike I am building now, I have a 201 H in a 24" wheel and the system is 12S Lipo (47V) and a 17 Amp controller and it feels very powerful(for a mini)from a stop. Even little sand on the road will let the tire start spinning. Up to 15 mph, it is noticeably faster than the MXUS on the same battery.
In fact, when the Lipo is on top charge(50V), the 201 H is very sensitive to throttle input and if one is not smooth, it can be quite jerky. None of my other Q100's feel that way.

 

[aroundqube]

During this side by side comparison of the Q 100H and MXUS 260 , I guess @ WOT . How does the sound compare ?

 

[motomech]

Yes, WOT.
It's hard to compare motor noise because the MXUS was run sensorless and the powerful Infineon controllers tend to "hammer"a bit.
So it sounded like a denist's drill, and that's why I sold it.
But even new and run by a "soft"controller, the MXUS was always louder than the Cutes.
A Q100 on a sine wave controller is more or less silent.
The Q100's on my ELB square wave, but smooth controllers, only emits a soft whine.

 

[toniovelo]

I've a q100 36v @ 36v and 328 rpm (so 38km/h vmax in 36v) on my ebike but the frog battery is very bad now.

I want test this motor with 12S lipo. I can burn it or not with 48V 18A max controller? And, the vmax will be ... km/h? 45k m/h? Good in 10% hills for maybe max 1mn?

THANKS. Sorry for my bad english...

 

[majornelson]

I'm running one with a 50v (http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35_52&product_id=128) battery and run their controller (6 FET IRFB3077) at 18.5 amps. Works great and I've never had a problem with it.

 

[majornelson]

In terms of top speed, I get about 30 km tops on the flats (total weight of 250 lbs between the bike and myself). It will pull on the hills but I'm not certain of the speed or grade or heat... Where I ride is not that hilly but I haven't had any problems with the controller cutting out because of heat.

 

[chas58]

Looks like you are not doing 328rpm overvolted 50 volts.

For toniovelo, I can't see how running a 328rpm over volted to 42 volts is going to work. It just does not have enough power to get it to the speed where it would run efficiently. It would be fun to try though (while it lasted).

I have heard of people running the 260 rpm version at 48 volts. Apparently that worked, and did about 25mph. I'm not sure what the durability of that set up was.

 

[majornelson]

Hmmm. I missed the 328 rpm part. And defer to chas58 on it. Checking my order, I have the 201 rpm Q100...

So... the 201 rpm model works well for me with the higher voltage battery and 18.5 amp controller. And agree with Chas58 that the higher rpm version would not work well with my setup.

Good luck!

 

[Sunder]

I've done 328 on 12S. It worked for a long time, but I wouldn't recommend it.

I'm a fairly fit rider (Actually, in a recent time trial in preparation for a triathlon, I'm surprised how my personal trainer graded me. I thought I'd be low to mid C grade, he thought on race day, I would be between upper C grade and bottom of B grade - there's my humblebrag for the day.). I used to fly on this thing on a perfectly flat road at ~48-50km/h - but on my unpowered road bike, I could do those speeds for 30s-1m anyway, so I was no stranger to those speeds and pedaling cadence.

It got fairly warm in most circumstances, and I always was very careful up hills. I used it for about 18 months before I wore out the clutch. It never overheated. I suspected the very sudden engagement of the clutch due to the over-speed of the motor would have accelerated the wear on the clutch, so that's another reason to not do it.

Bear in mind I'm also ~70kg, so if you're much heavier, it might not work for you.

Finally, my whole trip was only about 6.5km, so it's possible that a longer trip would have had more heat soak.

So I wouldn't say never, but you want to make absolutely sure you're fit, you've got the right gearing, and you're mindful of temps. In other words, for 90% of people, I'd recommend against. I just don't say it won't work, but for a few of us, it will.

 

[motomech]

Yes, I agree with all the posts above. Sunder summed it up nicely.

In case you guys missed it, I'm running a 260H frt. and a 328C rear on my 2WD and it has worked out well.

If anyone is interested, here is a thread about it;

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76230&p=1151540#p1151540
There is a picture thread in my sig.

 

[chas58]

25mph, 25 mile range, 25lbs (+3.5lb battery).

So many firsts. Well, if I don’t include Kepler’s brilliant work. He is an inspiration!

• Our first single speed.
• One of the first drop bar throttles
• One of the first rapid sub 30lb bike.
• Light weight motor and battery.

This bike weighs 29lbs with battery, cruises at 25mph (average), and goes 25miles on a charge.

Because of its weight and speed, it is unlike most of the bikes here. Riding the bike I would compare it to training in a pace line of licensed racers (where 25mph is a typical speed), but without the pace line. Race drafting speeds, without the rest of the peloton.

It basically meets the design goal of adding 5mph to my solo speed. And yes, being in the drops at speeds over 25mph helps!

I struggled a bit with a throttle on the drop bar bike. After years of goofing around with a thumb throttle, it hit me – I only use this at full power and at speeds from 15-30mph. So, I had a brain storm, and just used the throttle as an on off switch (not like a Q100 is going to spin the tires anyway). I ended up using a doorbell as the switch. The inch long vertical button is mounted on the inside of the brake hoods and allows easy access from the brake hoods, or from in the drops.

Gotta love the new batteries. I went from a 10lb LiFePo4 battery to a 3lb Li-NiCoMn battery of the same power (36v10ah). Sticking a 10lb battery on what was originally a 19lb bike just made my skin crawl.

With my old 10lb LiFePo4 battery, I enjoyed the mountain bike, but a light fast well balanced road bike is a total blast to ride! I’m certainly having fun.

Updated photos added to the first post in the thread.

 

[ScooterMan101]

chas58,

Is that the Q100c CST model ? Edit: in the picture it looks like the H model .

Which rpm 201 or 328 ?

( I have figured out how to use a 10 speed cassette with the Q100c CST if you are interested in a V3.0 version with rear cluster on a Q100c CST )


that is one large chainring ... bigger than 53 ?

Where did you get that battery ?

Thanks

25mph, 25 mile range, 25lbs (+3.5lb battery).

So many firsts. Well, if I don’t include Kepler’s brilliant work. He is an inspiration!

• Our first single speed.
• One of the first drop bar throttles
• One of the first rapid sub 30lb bike.
• Light weight motor and battery.

This bike weighs 29lbs with battery, cruises at 25mph (average), and goes 25miles on a charge.

Because of its weight and speed, it is unlike most of the bikes here. Riding the bike I would compare it to training in a pace line of licensed racers (where 25mph is a typical speed), but without the pace line. Race drafting speeds, without the rest of the peloton.

It basically meets the design goal of adding 5mph to my solo speed. And yes, being in the drops at speeds over 25mph helps!

I struggled a bit with a throttle on the drop bar bike. After years of goofing around with a thumb throttle, it hit me – I only use this at full power and at speeds from 15-30mph. So, I had a brain storm, and just used the throttle as an on off switch (not like a Q100 is going to spin the tires anyway). I ended up using a doorbell as the switch. The inch long vertical button is mounted on the inside of the brake hoods and allows easy access from the brake hoods, or from in the drops.

Gotta love the new batteries. I went from a 10lb LiFePo4 battery to a 3lb Li-NiCoMn battery of the same power (36v10ah). Sticking a 10lb battery on what was originally a 19lb bike just made my skin crawl.

With my old 10lb LiFePo4 battery, I enjoyed the mountain bike, but a light fast well balanced road bike is a total blast to ride! I’m certainly having fun.

Updated photos added to the first post in the thread.

 

[majornelson]

chas58,

Wow and nice! How do you like the single speed setup? I assume that you run the bike at an 80 - 100 rpm range which translates to the speeds you show? And very impressive with clip-ins! A peloton without the peloton...

Where did you get your battery? And it looks like you'e running larger tires on an Specialized aluminum frame?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I updated my controller and battery to one of the offerings from Paul @em3ev.com but the bike is a total city bike with upright stance, chain guard, internal 7 speed rear hub. Q100 is on the front and with the new controller/battery the wheel will spin at start.

Lee

 

[chas58]

Shout out to Ron (spinningmagnets) for his nice articles on 18650 battery technology
and to
Paul (em3ev.com) for tracking down some higher powered batteries and building me a nice compact unit. I'm not sure who else out there will really do a custom build like this.

When I asked Paul to get some higher density cells, and he got Samsung SDI INR18650-32E

36V 9.5Ah (10S3P-32E), 25A BMS, 75*101*130mm, 1.59kg, 340 Whrs
Nice, small, and light weight. Yeah, some 3400mAh or 3500mAh cells would have been nice...

My LiFePo4 weighs 4.5kg, and has the same range on my bike. This battery is 1/3 of the size and weight!!!

This compact 75*101*130mm 1.59kg battery could be put near the lower bracket, in a top tube bag, or under the seat. Given its light weight, placement isn’t as critical as a 10-20lb battery. Nice that battery technology as enabled safe builds that rival LiPo in size and weight.

 

[chas58]

chas58,

Is that the Q100c CST model ? Edit: in the picture it looks like the H model .

Which rpm 201 or 328 ?

( I have figured out how to use a 10 speed cassette with the Q100c CST if you are interested in a V3.0 version with rear cluster on a Q100c CST )


that is one large chainring ... bigger than 53 ?

Where did you get that battery ?

Thanks

The aluminum bike has a 328rpm Q100
The blue mountain bike has a 300RPM Q100.

I do need the screw on for the single speed, so that worked well, once I figured out how to get it to work on a 120mm drop out.

I did buy a gorgeous Speciallized Allez cromoly bike (1994) with down tube shifters to build into an electric ride, but it is such a sweet ride, I'm just keeping it as a road bike. The don't make them like that any more (well, they did do a special run of the frame last year, but they wanted something like $3000 for the frame only).

 

[chas58]

chas58,

Wow and nice! How do you like the single speed setup? I assume that you run the bike at an 80 - 100 rpm range which translates to the speeds you show? And very impressive with clip-ins! A peloton without the peloton...

Where did you get your battery? And it looks like you'e running larger tires on an Specialized aluminum frame?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I updated my controller and battery to one of the offerings from Paul @em3ev.com but the bike is a total city bike with upright stance, chain guard, internal 7 speed rear hub. Q100 is on the front and with the new controller/battery the wheel will spin at start.

Lee

With the heavy battery, I had mostly been using the mountain bike, and never shifted. So, single speed works even better here, with a light fast easy rolling bike.

Motomech once commented it wasn’t fun riding a Q100 bike without the motor. But on a light road bike (with gatorskins) it is amazing how fast and easy it is to pedal without the motor. It just glides right along and keeps rolling…!

Yep, the gearing is different.
Bike came with 42x16 gearing. It now has 53x16 gearing, which gives me 92 gear inches. Pretty close to my track bike I race at the velodrome (49x15 = 90 gear inches).

That puts my pedals at:
90rpm @ 24mph
100rpm @ 27mph.

I want to be between 90 and 100 rpm, and my cruising speed is typically 25-27mph on this bike. Just right!

The bike came with those silly 23mm tires, like all race geometry bikes until recently. I run a 28mm in the rear and a 30mm or 32mm in the front (photo has a 25mm on the front that measures an actual 27mm).

Charles

 

[friendly1uk]

Samsung SDI INR18650-32E

36V 9.5Ah (10S3P-32E), 25A BMS, 75*101*130mm, 1.59kg, 340 Whrs
Nice, small, and light weight.

Hello Chas
That is very light. My 12s 5ah pack made from HK hardcase's weighs more. They list 598g per 4s brick. Call it 150g per cell, and you need 10 to get 36v so there is your 1.5kg but it's 5Ah and yours is 9.5 so your coming in at around half the weight of RC Lipo. That is certainly news to me!


edit: I think the 598g listed is wrong, and it's more like 535g making my 12s 5A weight the same as yours with it's ~30g bms. Still about the same outcome though. I'm off to look up your cells

 

[chas58]

Samsung SDI INR18650-32E

36V 9.5Ah (10S3P-32E), 25A BMS, 75*101*130mm, 1.59kg, 340 Whrs
Nice, small, and light weight.

Hello Chas
That is very light. My 12s 5ah pack made from HK hardcase's weighs more. They list 598g per 4s brick. Call it 150g per cell, and you need 10 to get 36v so there is your 1.5kg but it's 5Ah and yours is 9.5 so your coming in at around half the weight of RC Lipo. That is certainly news to me!


edit: I think the 598g listed is wrong, and it's more like 535g making my 12s 5A weight the same as yours with it's ~30g bms. Still about the same outcome though. I'm off to look up your cells

Yes, I have been waiting years (literally) to have safe chemistry get to the size/weight of LiPo. Spinningmagnets write ups just wet my appetite. That day is finally here.
I would love to build a little 10s2P 3500mAh pack. A pair of those would give either 7Ah (single) or 14Ah (pair).

Ron has some interesting batteries in this article, but I haven't found many packs used with these.
https://www.electricbike.com/18650-cells-for-e-bike/

 

[friendly1uk]

I see the 4s hardpack is 28 euro's making them 7 a cell. I see your cells at 3.5 Which is another nice multiple. 6.4Ah of yours buys 5Ah of Lipo. So your cells are maybe 20% cheap, 45% lighter and somewhat safer.

RC lipo still has the discharge rates and ease of packaging on it's side. I'm not sure about volumetric efficiency. I see your cells are 10 amp and another popped up at me that manages 15 amp. Making your 3p pack enough for an s12s, or a 2p pack could cover 250w standard bikes. Without switching to the 15 amp cells that could do a 250w bike at 1p. I think a lot of people would make the switch if they were just easier to assemble. Tabbed perhaps so we could solder them.