CYC PHOTON

[raylo32]

Heck, just getting a splined crank spindle to replace those crappy square drives is worth half of the extra cost. IMO. But I'll have to reserve my full opinion as to the quality and value until I get mine. I am at 6 weeks in the "4 to 6" week estimate... and still waiting.

It is obvious that when comparing the quality of machining between the TSDZ2 motor and the CYC Photon motor, the latter comes out on top.
It is not enough to say that the price is too high. You have to know why the price is higher.
The TSDZ2 motor responds very well to a tighter budget and requires more frequent maintenance.
After my two TSDZ2 motors have traveled 20,000 km, I can say that maintenance is frequent
and that the purchase of spare parts cost me the original price for each of the motors.

The build quality of the Photon engine is vastly superior to that of the TSDZ2 engine.
As of today we have traveled 1100km on each of our two Photon engines.
I really feel like I paid the right price for a quality product.
And like any new product, there can be hiccups. I'm 100% enjoying my new toy.

I challenge anyone to make a motor equivalent to the Photon and at a better price.

We could have bought two eBikes with BOSCH motors for around $9,000.00.
But CYC's offer gave us an alternative. We installed a Photon motor on our two bikes for a total amount of $1700.00.

CYC's marketing idea is to compete with eBikes manufacturers, not the TSDZ2 engine.

 

[Mongo]

If CYC only unlocked their VESC controller for VESC TOOL... Let's by honest oficial CYC RIDE CONTROL app sucks.
Mine does not even calculate HUMAN POWER.
[snip]
Not to mention about not working ODO,Time and unreastically low Wh/km
Also Motor Temp is synchronized with Controller Temp for some reason
[snip]

There's not much excuse for that - not in the software world. Maybe the motor firmware is producing bad values though, and I dunno how CYC is planning on pushing out motor firmware updates - I'm presuming via the app, like Luna can with their Luna V2 VESCish app.

I've only used the app to tweak the settings, and not while out riding. Hopefully CYC is following at least the Android comments/ratings, which are so-so.

As an aside, CYC has established a Facehook area/arena (Zuck's world I decline) - is anything useful being posted over there? Such as software/firmware rollout announcements, the "yes" hint (but not the "how") regarding greasing, etc.

 

[raylo32]

I'm with you.

As an aside, CYC has established a Facehook area/arena (Zuck's world I decline) -

 

[hindesite]

Also Motor Temp is synchronized with Controller Temp for some reason

Not on mine, they show, for example, 15°C and 16°C in the app. But on the control display they are shown as 14°C and 15°C which is a different problem but may just be the app and controller interpreting the raw data differently and doesn't really matter in the real world.

While riding I've seen differences of over 15°C between the controller and motor, but only on the control display, I don't generally use the app while riding.

 

[hindesite]

On the Photon "going dead after power plugging", is that issues or issue - as in how many examples? Longevity over time and a feel for N out of N failure types, we don't yet have for the Photon. We've got pretty good (though I suspect exaggerated) indicators for the Tongsheng and Bafang BBS failure types - and despite them, plenty of perfectly happy owners too, for both brands.

My money is "in" on the Photon: as a supported, quality, and refined torque sensing motor - based on hope and hunch. And I'm in on the Bafang BBS motors for other needs. I'm probably never going to be "in" on any of the frame-integrated motors and batteries.

On the TOSEVEN, I'm passing for now - too many doubts and concerns, currently.

P.S. Thanks for starting the Photon thread.

I suspect that as is normal for forums, there may be a number of people who have bought and are happy with their Photons but only seek out forums if there is a problem. Add to that the generally large number of forum viewers who lurk and never join or post, it is hard to assess reliability from such a small sample.

TOSEVEN doesn't seem to solve any problems or add anything new - looks like it still won't fit my bikes and still has chainline issues; at least CYC moved forward with a solution there. And TOSEVEN reliability and support is as unknown as it is for the Photon at this stage.

I'm always very aware that when criticising products like the Photon, you are also critiquing real people who are most likely heavily invested in these projects and doing their best. Supporting that is good for everyone and is more likely to get a better product than constant nitpicking. There are a lot of positive things to say about the Photon, and it seems to me it is, or has the potential to be, a really good product. Of course that has to be balanced with the need to pass on valid issues, errors or shortcomings so they can be fixed.

I hope all those waiting get their Photon soon, taking a risk early worked out for me and I would recommend this motor to most people if price isn't an issue.

 

[Chuck Miller]

what is the highest bms and continuous amperage of a battery for a cycmotor photon?

 

[hardpebbles]

I suspect that as is normal for forums, there may be a number of people who have bought and are happy with their Photons but only seek out forums if there is a problem. Add to that the generally large number of forum viewers who lurk and never join or post, it is hard to assess reliability from such a small sample.

TOSEVEN doesn't seem to solve any problems or add anything new - looks like it still won't fit my bikes and still has chainline issues; at least CYC moved forward with a solution there. And TOSEVEN reliability and support is as unknown as it is for the Photon at this stage.

I'm always very aware that when criticising products like the Photon, you are also critiquing real people who are most likely heavily invested in these projects and doing their best. Supporting that is good for everyone and is more likely to get a better product than constant nitpicking. There are a lot of positive things to say about the Photon, and it seems to me it is, or has the potential to be, a really good product. Of course that has to be balanced with the need to pass on valid issues, errors or shortcomings so they can be fixed.

I hope all those waiting get their Photon soon, taking a risk early worked out for me and I would recommend this motor to most people if price isn't an issue.

I’d add to that that I am a lurker who only posted because of this issue (sorry!) - but it’s more common to complain than praise which skews interpretation.

To balance all this out, even though the torque sensor on mine was faulty, I’d still buy another. These things happen. It’s well built, solid, with a good app and smooth power - there’s not really any competition in the market at this level.

 

[Mongo]

what is the highest bms and continuous amperage of a battery for a cycmotor photon?

With the Photon unrestricted 2kw peak draw setting and a 52 volt nominal battery, I've been thinking/using at least 40amp BMS batteries.

In real use, I can't recall seeing power draws that high though, but I'm usually striving for range anyway.

 

[raylo32]

So, how was the faulty torque sensor repaired? Did they send you a replacement sensor and how hard was it to install?

To balance all this out, even though the torque sensor on mine was faulty, I’d still buy another. These things happen. It’s well built, solid, with a good app and smooth power - there’s not really any competition in the market at this level.

 

[hardpebbles]

So, how was the faulty torque sensor repaired? Did they send you a replacement sensor and how hard was it to install?

The shop I bought it from replaced the motor, but separately CYC offered to replace the torque sensor as I contacted them first. Their support replied within 24 hours and confirmed this as the fault.

 

[raylo32]

Pretty good service, especially since some of us can't even get the first Photon.

The shop I bought it from replaced the motor, but separately CYC offered to replace the torque sensor as I contacted them first. Their support replied within 24 hours and confirmed this as the fault.

 

[hindesite]

Pretty good service, especially since some of us can't even get the first Photon.

I found their service to be excellent when there was just a magnet missing from my shipment. I think the bottleneck in supply is just for the motors themselves (and may be restricted by capacity or cashflow) and the rest of the team seem to be very responsive. My issue with the noise coming from the motor was responded to almost immediately.

 

[Ianane]

Here TOSEVEN Mid Drive Motor Kit

In case if you are interested

Thanks for the intro to TOSEVEN. I wrote to Ben @ Cap Rouge, an Australian e-bike battery and conversion kit retailer, with links to these videos, (and who I bought my TSDZ2 from) and low and behold, he is getting a few motors and gave me a reasonable price offer on the 48v/500w version for under AU$800.
So I'm biting the bullet and will give the TOSEVEN a go. The size and weight are a bit of a minus, but as an all weather, 0 to 40+ degrees C commuter who climbs 500m each day, I want a motor that will handle the heat. So the bulk of the motor may be the price I pay for the budget friendly price of the motor.

 

[Ianane]

Thanks for the intro to TOSEVEN. I wrote to Ben @ Cap Rouge, an Australian e-bike battery and conversion kit retailer, with links to these videos, (and who I bought my TSDZ2 from) and low and behold, he is getting a few motors and gave me a reasonable price offer on the 48v/500w version for under AU$800.
So I'm biting the bullet and will give the TOSEVEN a go. The size and weight are a bit of a minus, but as an all weather, 0 to 40+ degrees C commuter who climbs 500m each day, I want a motor that will handle the heat. So the bulk of the motor may be the price I pay for the budget friendly price of the motor.

Gosh, after reading the to and fro of the Photon, I just hopped back on the fence.

 

[raylo32]

I have a CYC X1 Pro gen 2 with BAC 855 controller on one bike and it has been pretty good so I am fairly confident that the Photon will work out. That X1 will push my dual susp Stumpjumper over 40 mph on throttle... on throttle because you are well spun out on the pedals at that pace. I don't have many miles on it because that bike has no good place to mount a battery so I usually use a backpack... or more recently a seatpost rack. But not taking any trails with a Supershark on a seatpost rack. Biggest downside to that setup is the noise.... MUCH louder than my TSDZ2 bike. Sounds like photon should be close to TSDZ2 sound levels.

 

[pxl666]

as i said before - photon makes the cost of the bike too close to bikes build with bafang m500/m600 and its still conversion motor being no match for integrated and much more robust m500/m600, not mentioning bb clearance issue...it might be well built but still will overheat easy . for its price point photon seems to be intended for ppl who love their current bike sooo much ...

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

as i said before - photon makes the cost of the bike too close to bikes build with bafang m500/m600 and its still conversion motor being no match for integrated and much more robust m500/m600, not mentioning bb clearance issue...it might be well built but still will overheat easy . for its price point photon seems to be intended for ppl who love their current bike sooo much ...

How do you know it overheats easily? Did you have opportunity to perform some tests?
Do not forget that m600 is nominally rated as 500W so it is not the same power level.
Obviously I'm not saying that 500W is very low but still...

Home

Bafang description

bafang-e.com

 

[pxl666]

just curious
Which one have you owned or tried:
Photon, Bafang M600 or M500 or Toseven.

bafang m600 . why?

 

[hindesite]

as i said before - photon makes the cost of the bike too close to bikes build with bafang m500/m600 and its still conversion motor being no match for integrated

I'd argue that integrated is no match for the Photon. At least i can move my Photon to any bike and revert my bike back to its original state. The Bafang integrated motor might be the exception, but almost all the others have real restrictions on configuration, power levels etc.

and much more robust m500/m600, not mentioning bb clearance issue...

what clearance issue? On my bike the motor barely projects past the chainring and has no worse ground clearance than a m600 on something like the horrendous BuzzBikes for example. Those actually project well forward but this is obscured by the massive downtube in front. That is probably more durable for scrapes, but for normal use clearance isnt a big deal. On mine the clearance is a bit over 250mm; the chainring is a lot lower than that.

it might be well built but still will overheat easy .

thats not what I'm experiencing at all.

for its price point photon seems to be intended for ppl who love their current bike sooo much ...

That is exactly why I got one. I already had a bike with a spec way above any of the pre-built hardtail options, and the Photon was the only option that would fit - and it fits perfectly. That it was a cheaper option than even a m600 integrated bike was a bonus.

 

[hindesite]

Yesterday I had the weather and an opportunity to go for a quick ride. I was interested to see what using a lot of assist at high speed would do to battery consumption. Obviously this was going to be a short ride...



The ride is about 2/3rds flat gravel with 1/3rd off road and hilly. Maximum grade recorded was 30.9%, and this bike just cruises up that; not even in low gear, just some slippage on wet grass and some difficulty holding the front wheel down and with steering being more advisory than real.


I was using Race mode (USA preset) with moderate assist, so the ride home was limited to 45kph which is at a very high pedaling cadence on my bike. This is a lot faster than i would normally ride. That 35kph spike isn't under power, that is downhill and off road; the broader flat regions before and after that are under power on flat road.

The 25km ride used about 4 bars of my 520Wh battery, probably about 350-400Wh. That is at least 2x what my normal consumption would be.

A clear demo of how cycling at unnecessarily high speeds and assist levels will really kill battery life. Who knew...

 

[hindesite]

I've only used the app to tweak the settings, and not while out riding. Hopefully CYC is following at least the Android comments/ratings, which are so-so.

Despite people being down on CYC for their app, I think if you look at it in context it is pretty good.

Sure it is full of all kinds of errors, inconsistencies and shortcomings, but for its basic system management, information and configuration functions it works very well. It adds to the user experience and doesn't detract from it.

I've spent some time poring over the app and there are issues that should probably be fixed on every single screen. This is in no way a criticism of the guys at CYC. When I've finished I'll upload here, this is like a "spot the difference" puzzle where the longer you look the more you find. Even looking at the image below I have just now noticed something that I haven't annotated, anyone else see it?

For example:

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Despite people being down on CYC for their app, I think if you look at it in context it is pretty good.

Sure it is full of all kinds of errors, inconsistencies and shortcomings, but for its basic system management, information and configuration functions it works very well. It adds to the user experience and doesn't detract from it.

I've spent some time poring over the app and there are issues that should probably be fixed on every single screen. This is in no way a criticism of the guys at CYC. When I've finished I'll upload here, this is like a "spot the difference" puzzle where the longer you look the more you find. Even looking at the image below I have just now noticed something that I haven't annotated, anyone else see it?

For example:

View attachment 335321

A) The label is wrong. Instead of Torque Sensor Sensitivity I would call that as Torque Sensor Deadzone.
Higher value means smaller deadzone which means less force on pedal is required to activate the motor. I use 10 on my CYC STEALTH.
B) It is just a simple scale for LOW and HIGH values used internally by controller's firmware
C) The same as above. BTW. Power Ramp Times are both for power increase and decrease. In older app for ASI BAC855 controller we had separated values in ms. 10 value acts like 2000ms. 5 acts like 1000ms. I use 5.

D) Max base power multiplier on the highest assist (torque level at 100%).
E) Wrong label again. It should be called Cadenceless Start

 

[raylo32]

Interesting... I have this issue on my X1 Pro Gen 2 bike where the torque assist lags just a tiny bit from when I start to pedal. It really isn't a problem on the road but on trails and obstacles the timing is just off enough to be a challenge. I need to revisit the app and play with this setting.

A) The label is wrong. Instead of Torque Sensor Sensitivity I would call that as Torque Sensor Deadzone.
Higher value means smaller deadzone which means less force on pedal is required to activate the motor. I use 10 on my CYC STEALTH.

 

[Mongo]

The CYC and Luna BT apps do beat fiddling with the old serial->USB cable, easily, as one can (and I have) tweaked motor settings while stopped.

Bafang took away the capability, at least easily, and TOSEVEN - who knows what, if anything, they'll offer.

 

[hindesite]

E) Wrong label again. It should be called Cadenceless Start

In the User Manual it is actually labeled "Static Engage"

STATIC ENGAGE This feature allows for a cadence-free pull away. i.e., only torque (40N.m.) is required to activate pedal assist.

BTW, nitpicking here - Nm is non standard notation but seems to be almost universally used for nonscientific applications. Correct notation is N⋅m or N m but that is getting a bit nerdy for this application I think.

Also nitpicking, this could be a check box or On/Off toggle button rather than cycling through choices.

But without any dates or changelog or obvious version control on either the manual or the app, there is no way of knowing which information is the most recent.