CYC PHOTON

[steve s]

Mongo sleep. New day.

It's a hot HOT day and a long hill ride, so I decided to push the new Photon Build till it won't anymore, at least at full 2kw throttle abuse. I slid on a 52-volt 25AH battery with a 50amp BMS (~2.6kw), and off we went.

At around 210°F indicated on the SW102 display, the motor power gracefully pulled back to 750 watts. No muss, no fuss, no melted gears, no burnt-up controller or roasted core - still good, running, and riding. Thanks CYC. This is what ALL of these CPU-controlled motors should do.

Boo Bafang, and especially Tongsheng. NO excuses. ToSeven? I dunno how they operate, but if that former Tongsheng engineer, given a second chance, didn't learn the lesson ...

It's too early in the long-term reliability lifecycle, but I think CYC got the Photon motor/controller unit correct. The displays? Feh.

Thank you! Definitely great information.

 

[raylo32]

Good data! I did similar the other day (see earlier post) but wasn't sure what the cutout temp was exactly. After it cut back to 750W I had to ride a few hundred yards and then stop to switch the display and it was dropping through 195 at that moment. So it could have been 210 when it first cut back.

Mongo sleep. New day.

It's a hot HOT day and a long hill ride, so I decided to push the new Photon Build till it won't anymore, at least at full 2kw throttle abuse. I slid on a 52-volt 25AH battery with a 50amp BMS (~2.6kw), and off we went.

At around 210°F indicated on the SW102 display, the motor power gracefully pulled back to 750 watts. No muss, no fuss, no melted gears, no burnt-up controller or roasted core - still good, running, and riding. Thanks CYC. This is what ALL of these CPU-controlled motors should do.

Boo Bafang, and especially Tongsheng. NO excuses. ToSeven? I dunno how they operate, but if that former Tongsheng engineer, given a second chance, didn't learn the lesson ...

It's too early in the long-term reliability lifecycle, but I think CYC got the Photon motor/controller unit correct. The displays? Feh.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Mongo sleep. New day.

It's a hot HOT day and a long hill ride, so I decided to push the new Photon Build till it won't anymore, at least at full 2kw throttle abuse. I slid on a 52-volt 25AH battery with a 50amp BMS (~2.6kw), and off we went.

At around 210°F indicated on the SW102 display, the motor power gracefully pulled back to 750 watts. No muss, no fuss, no melted gears, no burnt-up controller or roasted core - still good, running, and riding. Thanks CYC. This is what ALL of these CPU-controlled motors should do.

Boo Bafang, and especially Tongsheng. NO excuses. ToSeven? I dunno how they operate, but if that former Tongsheng engineer, given a second chance, didn't learn the lesson ...

It's too early in the long-term reliability lifecycle, but I think CYC got the Photon motor/controller unit correct. The displays? Feh.

So basically it throttles at 100C (210F is meaningless for most of folks on this planet)

 

[Chalo]

So basically it throttles at 100C (210F is meaningless for most of folks on this planet)

The savvy use degrees Kelvin. Or Rankine.

We don't usually have a grasp of each other's currency values either, and that also doesn't matter when you can just look it up anytime.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

100C seems very high. Tsdz2b Would probably die at such high temp. I do not think that anything above 80C is safe for this type of motor.
What was temperature for controller?

 

[moped-dan]

Anyones photon feel like it's dragging when not using power?

Even with the chain off it's noticeably stiff to pedal forward. Backwards it's fine so I don't think it's the bearings. High voltage YouTube channel posted an issue of the bearings rubbing, but I'm not convinced that's my problem.

I should say I don't think it was this way when I first installed it but then again I'm not 100%. I think I would have noticed.

It's much more resistance than my bbshd which had fairly minimal drag when pedaling unpowered.

 

[steve s]

Anyones photon feel like it's dragging when not using power?

Even with the chain off it's noticeably stiff to pedal forward. Backwards it's fine so I don't think it's the bearings. High voltage YouTube channel posted an issue of the bearings rubbing, but I'm not convinced that's my problem.

I should say I don't think it was this way when I first installed it but then again I'm not 100%. I think I would have noticed.

It's much more resistance than my bbshd which had fairly minimal drag when pedaling unpowered.

I definitely feel a bit of pedal effort/ drag for lack of a better description it kind of seems like a little engine braking when I go downhill.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

So photon is worse than cyc stealth in this matter. I do not feel any noticeable resistance on my stealth gen1 when I pedal without assistance.

 

[Mongo]

Anyones photon feel like it's dragging when not using power?

Even with the chain off it's noticeably stiff to pedal forward. Backwards it's fine so I don't think it's the bearings. High voltage YouTube channel posted an issue of the bearings rubbing, but I'm not convinced that's my problem.

I should say I don't think it was this way when I first installed it but then again I'm not 100%. I think I would have noticed.

It's much more resistance than my bbshd which had fairly minimal drag when pedaling unpowered.

I've been wondering whether the pressure or tension of the crank spindle lock ring may have an effect on drag between the spindle, lock ring, and the nylon bushings (which may be available from BMW - not sure though these are Photon-compatible).

I'm not any type of engineer, but my guess is that the lock ring need not be pressing tight against the bushings, and that all it needs to do is reduce any excessive spindle lateral slop. CYC themselves gives very little clue how much pressure the lockring should apply. My Photon builds have more drag than my well-broken-in BBS builds, but they've only got a few hundred miles total of road time. I'd consider putting one of the well-polished washers, greased, between the left BB cup and the lock ring, then tighten the lock ring so it just took up the slack of being able to freely turn the washer by the edge. That way you'd have nylon|hard polished surface|split aluminum. I've also been able to slightly adjust and back off the lockring pressure, even with the crank in place - might try that.

P.S. I did watch the High Voltage on the subject, and think he's got a good point/case on the nylon insert dimension issue. Dunno about the chain ring removal issue - haven't tried yet.

 

[moped-dan]

I'd consider putting one of the well-polished washers, greased, between the left BB cup and the lock ring, then tighten the lock ring so it just took up the slack of being able to freely turn the washer by the edge.

Good point. I definitely had mine too tight and I loosened it to the minimum so the axle doesn't move.

I also completely removed the axle and the chain to isolate the chainring and it feels the same so I dont think my issue is just the axle bearings. Possible something with the chain ring ( too tight? not sure. ). I tried to take mine off, but was unsuccessful and I didn't want to destroy it. I wont mess with it again until i come up with a better tool / method to remove it.

 

[Mongo]

Good point. I definitely had mine too tight and I loosened it to the minimum so the axle doesn't move.

I also completely removed the axle and the chain to isolate the chainring and it feels the same so I dont think my issue is just the axle bearings. Possible something with the chain ring ( too tight? not sure. ). I tried to take mine off, but was unsuccessful and I didn't want to destroy it. I wont mess with it again until i come up with a better tool / method to remove it.

For the chainring lock ring(s), I started looking around for a not-too-expensive pin wrench and came up with this:

It's marketed by a bunch of vendors and has a set of replaceable pins - 5" pin span max, 12" long, $30ish via eBay or Amazon - but probably not comfortable in the hand with those hard edges. There's also a 1/2 drive extension hole - possibly too much oomph on 4mm pins though.

The pin diameter on my CYC-supplied wrenches are approx 3.85mm.

The pin length on this tool are unfortunately very short.

 

[raylo32]

Remember that you need to pull the cranks off and remove the BB axle before the chainring can be loosened and removed. If you try to loosen it whilst the BB axle is in place it might start to come loose but then will bind up if you continue.

For the chainring lock ring(s), I started looking around for a not-too-expensive pin wrench and came up with this:
View attachment 337979
It's marketed by a bunch of vendors and has a set of replaceable pins - 5" pin span max, 12" long, $30ish via eBay or Amazon - but probably not comfortable in the hand with those hard edges. There's also a 1/2 drive extension hole - possibly too much oomph on 4mm pins though.

The pin diameter on my CYC-supplied wrenches are approx. 3.85mm.

 

[steve s]

I've been wondering whether the pressure or tension of the crank spindle lock ring may have an effect on drag between the spindle, lock ring, and the nylon bushings (which may be available from BMW - not sure though these are Photon-compatible).

I'm not any type of engineer, but my guess is that the lock ring need not be pressing tight against the bushings, and that all it needs to do is reduce any excessive spindle lateral slop. CYC themselves gives very little clue how much pressure the lockring should apply. My Photon builds have more drag than my well-broken-in BBS builds, but they've only got a few hundred miles total of road time. I'd consider putting one of the well-polished washers, greased, between the left BB cup and the lock ring, then tighten the lock ring so it just took up the slack of being able to freely turn the washer by the edge. That way you'd have nylon|hard polished surface|split aluminum. I've also been able to slightly adjust and back off the lockring pressure, even with the crank in place - might try that.

P.S. I did watch the High Voltage on the subject, and think he's got a good point/case on the nylon insert dimension issue. Dunno about the chain ring removal issue - haven't tried yet.

I will definitely give loosening the lock ring a try

 

[hindesite]

For the chainring lock ring(s), I started looking around for a not-too-expensive pin wrench and came up with this:
View attachment 337979
It's marketed by a bunch of vendors and has a set of replaceable pins - 5" pin span max, 12" long, $30ish via eBay or Amazon - but probably not comfortable in the hand with those hard edges. There's also a 1/2 drive extension hole - possibly too much oomph on 4mm pins though.

The pin diameter on my CYC-supplied wrenches are approx 3.85mm.

The holes in the lock ring are a loose fit for 4.0mm drill shank, I'd estimate they are about 4.2mm. Looks like the pins could be up to about 6mm long.

On mine I had a lot of trouble getting it tight enough to lock my extremely loose 34T without it rattling around, I have no idea how I'm going to get it off.

 

[richj8990]

Now with all the talk about dragging and lockrings not being torqued well, chainrings that can't be removed without BB removal? Sounds like the double-chain setups including the Stealth are not that bad after all.

 

[tomholz]

For the case some users here still have the problem of a weird noise coming from the motor/controller when standing still and having the motor "armed":
I found out that I had the lower value for the throttle not adjusted precise enough (had to raise it from 3.80V to 3.83V), then the noise disappeared.
So it was no malfunction or bug, but only poor adjustment of the lower end throttle voltage. So the motor was in this state on the edge of being activated/driven....

 

[hindesite]

For the case some users here still have the problem of a weird noise coming from the motor/controller when standing still and having the motor "armed":
I found out that I had the lower value for the throttle not adjusted precise enough (had to raise it from 3.80V to 3.83V), then the noise disappeared.
So it was no malfunction or bug, but only poor adjustment of the lower end throttle voltage. So the motor was in this state on the edge of being activated/driven....

That's not really an accurate description of that problem.

After I first raised this issue with a video, CYC did say that this was not something that would cause damage, they were aware of it, and that they would fix it with a firmware update.

The throttle adjustment issue only makes this noise obvious - it is still there as the motor powers up whether by torque sensor or throttle; it just means the controller output is not as clean as it should be. The throttle setting is not the actual cause.

BTW for those using the auto throttle setup process, just manually move the throttle just off the stop to increase the deadband. That stops the noise from occurring from when the system powers up.

It would be interesting to hear if recently produced motors have this issue fixed by a controller hardware update, the most recent firmware update didn't fix it. In any case, this doesn't seem to be a big issue and it shouldn't discourage people from buying a Photon.

 

[raylo32]

The BB spindle removal isn't that complicated. Just need to loosen the lock ring and pop the spindle out. IMO this is worth the inconvenience as compared to the 2 chain CYC motors just for the noise reduction alone.

Now with all the talk about dragging and lockrings not being torqued well, chainrings that can't be removed without BB removal? Sounds like the double-chain setups including the Stealth are not that bad after all.

 

[raylo32]

Easy enough to get it off. First, with the cranks still on, hold the left crank whilst you use the tool to just break the chainring loose. Then pull the cranks off and the BB spindle out to finish the job.

The holes in the lock ring are a loose fit for 4.0mm drill shank, I'd estimate they are about 4.2mm. Looks like the pins could be up to about 6mm long.

On mine I had a lot of trouble getting it tight enough to lock my extremely loose 34T without it rattling around, I have no idea how I'm going to get it off.

 

[Mongo]

Tried out another throttle, this one with a very small footprint that works near the right grip and around/within the trigger shifter - something I couldn't readily do with the "turkey chinned" throttle CYC chooses to use. These are marketed by several vendors, and I don't know who the original manufacturer is:

It has the convenient clamshell-style mount, and is compact - very little of the mechanism's dimension is below the bar:



I've grown to prefer right-hand throttles, so I can use hand signals in traffic. But I don't like the twist throttles I've tried.

Like with the generic Bafang throttle, it seems to work just fine with the CYC Photon - worth a try at $15 U.S.

Or not... The hinge failed - the steel pin pulled right through the plastic. While it worked electrically with the Photon, unless you can manage to tighten it down very gingerly and it still holds its position (with a strip of double-sided tape perhaps), I can't recommend purchasing this throttle.

 

[raylo32]

Does this work any better than the CYC piece? Mine seems almost like an on/off switch. Maybe the settings can be tuned to provide a more linear and gradual application? I don't use it often so not a high priority for me.

Tried out another throttle, this one with a very small footprint that works near the right grip and around/within the trigger shifter - something I couldn't readily do with the "turkey chinned" throttle CYC chooses to use. These are marketed by several vendors, and I don't know who the original manufacturer is:

It has the convenient clamshell-style mount, and is compact - very little of the mechanism's dimension is below the bar:



I've grown to prefer right-hand throttles, so I can use hand signals in traffic. But I don't like the twist throttles I've tried.

 

[Mongo]

Does this work any better than the CYC piece? Mine seems almost like an on/off switch. Maybe the settings can be tuned to provide a more linear and gradual application? I don't use it often so not a high priority for me.

I've only had one on-the-road ride so far - very subjectively I'd say the initial motor start-up engagement may be a little softer. I fiddled with the throttle settings on my first Photon build, and couldn't find a way to "ease" the initial power delivery ramp as I can with Luna's V2 controller - much appreciated as there's a LOT more power on tap.

I was mostly poking around for a less obtrusive throttle that would not collide with the shifter paddles.

 

[hindesite]

....

I was mostly poking around for a less obtrusive throttle that would not collide with the shifter paddles.

That's why I have my CYC throttle on the left, the bulky area under the throttle conflicts with the derailleur shifters.

So instead, the throttle paddle conflicts with the dropper lever :-(

 

[raylo32]

LOL... I was going to say the same thing. I have my throttle just to the left of the dropper lever. But it is lower... in a position to thumb it easily while on the grip. The dropper lever is just to the right and higher. After about 10 rides my muscle memory is just about good enough that I don't confuse them anymore. Almost.

That's why I have my CYC throttle on the left, the bulky area under the throttle conflicts with the derailleur shifters.

So instead, the throttle paddle conflicts with the dropper lever :-(

 

[raylo32]

In default setting at low assists this doesn't matter much since the throttle will also be weak then. But I have tweaked my settings to give full throttle at all assist levels in Race mode so I need to be a little careful applying it from stop. When I use the throttle underway it is usually for a burst run from my top gear spun out pedaling speed to go faster so the instant on isn't an issue.

I've only had one on-the-road ride so far - very subjectively I'd say the initial motor start-up engagement may be a little softer. I fiddled with the throttle settings on my first Photon build, and couldn't find a way to "ease" the initial power delivery ramp as I can with Luna's V2 controller - much appreciated as there's a LOT more power on tap.

I was mostly poking around for a less obtrusive throttle that would not collide with the shifter paddles.