CYC PHOTON

[hindesite]

If anyone fancies helping out I have a poll going on the photon owners group to help establish reliability for people sitting on the fence to purchase, myself included...

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Don't do Facebook. Using forums to gauge reliability is only useful to see what problems occur, not the relative numbers affected. People without issues tend to be less motivated to post - or to even read forums (and hence, your post) in the first place. Your poll will be inherently biased towards those reporting failures.

My Photon motor has had no major issues after a year of off-road and back country use, 1250km. Mine was from one of the earliest batches before they started to have scaling problems with long wait times.

Left bearing is feeling slightly loose and slightly rough (with the plastic shield/bushing removed) I expect to have to replace it in the next few months. Still in much better condition than the previous Sram DUB BB left bearing, which was complete rubbish at <500km.

Left crank used to continually work loose, have replaced with some others, yet to see if the issue is resolved. Several others have had the same issue.

 

[Ham]

Don't do Facebook. Using forums to gauge reliability is only useful to see what problems occur, not the relative numbers affected. People without issues tend to be less motivated to post - or to even read forums (and hence, your post) in the first place. Your poll will be inherently biased towards those reporting failures.

My Photon motor has had no major issues after a year of off-road and back country use, 1250km. Mine was from one of the earliest batches before they started to have scaling problems with long wait times.

Left bearing is feeling slightly loose and slightly rough (with the plastic shield/bushing removed) I expect to have to replace it in the next few months. Still in much better condition than the previous Sram DUB BB left bearing, which was complete rubbish at <500km.

Left crank used to continually work loose, have replaced with some others, yet to see if the issue is resolved. Several others have had the same issue.

Excellent to hear, thank you.

The poll, is better than just reading negative reports so I am hoping that it gives at least a slightly clearer idea. Right now it sits at 69 votes with 74% having no issues, 15% having problems that prevent riding and 11% having problems that don't prevent riding. So basically 85% can still ride.

I think, with the understanding that forums likely attract more folk with problems then those are not too bad numbers, yet. The same poll on the stealth gen3 has less responders (sixteen by last check) with 93% at trouble free miles, 6% problems but can still ride and 1% problems and cannot ride. 99% can still ride.

In my mind that gives a little clearer idea than just trying to find out from various threads which is better and how reliable they are.

 

[nervagon]

50.3mm chainline on 68mm BB and 135mm/142mm is actually not great. 47mm to 48mm would be more ideal. I guess the solution is to remove the 3mm spacer and sacrifice your Q-factor symmetry by -3.1mm. On a 68mm bottom bracket, the BBSHD with stock 46mm chainring is also a 50mm chainline which created a market for higher offset chainrings to get a proper chainline.

Edit, I should add that 73mm BB with non-boost is kind of SOL. It's lucky to have the 68mm/142or135 combo because you can have the option of a proper non-boost chainline.

Edit, Edit, and if you have a road bike with 68mm BB and 130mm OLD dropouts, you are also SOL.

 

[Ham]

Ordered my next stealth gen 3 today instead of the photon so will see what kind of chain lines I can get with it when it arrives! Excited again but for no real reason as I currently run X1 Pro gen 2 which is a hoot but the stealth gen 3 torque sensing improvements excite me and hopefully a stronger freewheel set up...yes I am a man child.

 

[hindesite]

Excellent to hear, thank you.

The poll, is better than just reading negative reports so I am hoping that it gives at least a slightly clearer idea. Right now it sits at 69 votes with 74% having no issues, 15% having problems that prevent riding and 11% having problems that don't prevent riding. So basically 85% can still ride.

I think, with the understanding that forums likely attract more folk with problems then those are not too bad numbers, yet. The same poll on the stealth gen3 has less responders (sixteen by last check) with 93% at trouble free miles, 6% problems but can still ride and 1% problems and cannot ride. 99% can still ride.

In my mind that gives a little clearer idea than just trying to find out from various threads which is better and how reliable they are.

As a matter of interest, how many other people had the same problems as my unit?

Also consider that this is only showing historical failures, and CYC appears to be very aware of them and acknowledges their problems. You really need a kind of rolling graph to show failures related to date of purchase or duration of use, and there isn't enough data to support that.

For somebody considering a Photon now, things may be very different. I tend to take CYC at face value, since they seem to have changed their approach to servicing, and there are more parts available in the online store; other parts might even be available on request. Maybe their product will improve in future.

This was CYC's comment, from my post a few back:

4. From our records and our resellers' records, the quality of the latest batch is very stable. We do apologize for the initial batch failure rate being higher than what we aimed for (although not near the levels reported by some online), we tried our best to test with third-party lab and in-house as much as we could before launching, but some issues arise only in mass production. Since then, we have addressed the issues that caused the failures. Meanwhile, we are improving our servicing networks and improving parts availability to ensure a quick turnaround time if there are servicing needs.

5. A point that we'd also like to stress is that the failures that have been seen so far are 90% caused by us upscaling our manufacturing. For a small company to start mass producing is a major challenge. There has been a few design modifications needed but these are very small adjustments and do not affect the base design of the system. We have been revising our scaling-up strategy along with the manufacturing and assembly processes. This includes better implementation of QC procedures.

 

[nervagon]

I just jumped on the Photon hype train. Hopefully it lives up to the hype!

After printing out the photon template, and seeing how well it is going to fit my bike, I just couldn't resist. I was forced to choose a throttle, which I don't plan on running, so I added the Photon 1t1 display-only cable to my cart, and the BB cup tool so I can crank it down with a breaker bar.

 

[raylo32]

Hype? IDK. I have both a Photon and TSDZ2 (on OSF and with cooling mods) and they actually ride pretty similarly on torque sensor, but Photon has better looking hardware, for sure. The one performance differential is the throttle. TSDZ2 throttle is next to useless since it doesn't get full power while Photon in unrestricted has a very responsive and powerful throttle. Just can't use it like that for long due to heat buildup. The other differential, of course, is the sophisticated CYC app and firmware updates via Bluetooth. TSZDZ2 has to be done with ST visual programmer for both display and controller. The OSF guys were working on BT interfaces but I am not sure they have it to the level of also doing firmware updates. As for durability? IDK that either since I have never had problems with either... except of my own making with my first TSDZ2 doing maintenance.

View attachment 350703
I just jumped on the Photon hype train. Hopefully it lives up to the hype!

After printing out the photon template, and seeing how well it is going to fit my bike, I just couldn't resist. I was forced to choose a throttle, which I don't plan on running, so I added the Photon 1t1 display-only cable to my cart, and the BB cup tool so I can crank it down with a breaker bar.

 

[nervagon]

Hype might not be a good word, but then neither is controversial. It has a strange mix of praise and disdain. The price appears to be controversial at least. There has been a lot of talk of thermal problems. Reports of failures and defects. It is kind of difficult to parse it all as a potential buyer. I still don’t know if it can survive the San Gabriel valley in August. Compared to my BBSHD purchases, I feel more risk or uncertainty on this one.

But then, crazy enough, it feels like the new Bafang M635 is even more of a risk than the Photon. And the ToSeven drives feel like a big risk too. Everything feels risky, except for maybe the mature and past their prime BBS drives.

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

Thanks Nerve, Atak Ham, Hinde, I was considering one of these but NO!

OK & I submit the prime BBS drive is BBS02 and I quote Justin_Le:

"But what's interesting is you could have all of this exact same improvement by simply starting with the BBS02 motor and then clamping on some additional passive heatsinks to achieve better thermal conduction and heat capacity! The additional size and mass of the BBSHD motor is not resulting in any improved motor performance, what gains they could have had from the larger size seem to be lost because of the lower pole topology and a lower flux internal magnet design. Instead the only benefit comes from the additional metal and surface area which is silly.

If instead Bafang had kept the same rotor/stator design of the BBS02 and made it 48mm deep instead of 29mm deep for their HD model, then there would be an actually substantial performance improvement, with way better loaded efficiency and torque producing capabilities. As it is now, in terms of torque to weight ratio and power to weight ratio, the BBS02 is hands down a much better motor than the BBSHD." HEREIN

2019 Motor Simulator, Mid-drives and other updates

Sharp eyes may have noticed that we added a 'mid-drive' option to the online motor simulator last month and have been incrementally flushing out the details. I alluded to this plan earlier here https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89877&p=1386574#p1386574 and it's finally live...

endless-sphere.com

The addition of <addtional passive heatsinks> {AKA} finned 'raspberry pi' heatsinks on the exterior of the BBS02 increases the heat rejection of the BBS02 cases so that the heat generated by system is released without overheating the unit.
You can run it full tilt all day with fins.
Thermal Equilibrium
Best By Test.
Mike V.

 

[raylo32]

Yeah, the high price of the Photon, when it essentially rides about the same as TSDZ2 under pedal/torque sensor, can seem to be a bit much. As for your other observations I totally agree. It is a bit of a crap shoot and none of these is perfect. That's what makes it fun.

I believe you'll be OK in the heat depending on what you ask of the Photon. The only issue here is doing long steep climbs in the summer at too high speed. But it is workable. Just don't try to do a max speed run up a long 15% grade. On the flats, if you are any kind of pedaler, you will spin out on your gearing without needing excessive unrestricted watts from the motor. Like I said, I spin out on my TSDZ2 so that amount of power is plenty.

Hype might not be a good word, but then neither is controversial. It has a strange mix of praise and disdain. The price appears to be controversial at least. There has been a lot of talk of thermal problems. Reports of failures and defects. It is kind of difficult to parse it all as a potential buyer. I still don’t know if it can survive the San Gabriel valley in August. Compared to my BBSHD purchases, I feel more risk or uncertainty on this one.

But then, crazy enough, it feels like the new Bafang M635 is even more of a risk than the Photon. And the ToSeven drives feel like a big risk too. Everything feels risky, except for maybe the mature and past their prime BBS drives.

 

[nervagon]

Yeah, the high price of the Photon, when it essentially rides about the same as TSDZ2 under pedal/torque sensor, can seem to be a bit much. As for your other observations I totally agree. It is a bit of a crap shoot and none of these is perfect. That's what makes it fun.

I believe you'll be OK in the heat depending on what you ask of the Photon. The only issue here is doing long steep climbs in the summer at too high speed. But it is workable. Just don't try to do a max speed run up a long 15% grade. On the flats, if you are any kind of pedaler, you will spin out on your gearing without needing excessive unrestricted watts from the motor. Like I said, I spin out on my TSDZ2 so that amount of power is plenty.

I want to pedal around, not moped around. I don’t plan on even installing the throttle. I want light weight (7 pounds is ok coming from BBS), quiet, and inconspicuous. I want to do gravel type riding without attracting attention from rangers. I just want to be as low key as possible whether I’m at the beach, on the streets, or gravel riding.

 

[hindesite]

Thanks Nerve, Atak Ham, Hinde, I was considering one of these but NO!

OK & I submit the prime BBS drive is BBS02

Not prime for me.

Won't even fit my 1x decent modern MTB hardtail.

YMMV,

End of.

 

[Chalo]

Won't even fit my 1x decent modern MTB hardtail.

Sounds like a your-bike problem. Credit where credit is due.

 

[hindesite]

Sounds like a your-bike problem. Credit where credit is due.

Absolutely.

Full credit to CYC for addressing the problem.

 

[nervagon]

Report on the ordering experience with ElectrifyBike:

Ordered Monday morning. Tracking number within 1.5hrs and package in transit that same day. Photon arrived Wednesday morning. Very fast order turnaround. Obviously they have stock on hand.

 

[hindesite]

Report on the ordering experience with ElectrifyBike:

Ordered Monday morning. Tracking number within 1.5hrs and package in transit that same day. Photon arrived Wednesday morning. Very fast order turnaround. Obviously they have stock on hand.

Back in April I had to wait about 3 weeks (and I was happy with that), and things rapidly got worse after that as things really kicked off. I think the CYC was under a bit of stress back then, and that was only a year ago.

 

[nervagon]

This thing just fits my bike so well. Because my BB is 67mm I needed a 1mm spacer, which I had on hand. Time to figure out my cable routing.

 

[SammySamm]

After one year reading and waiting here, i have ordered a Foton directly in Hongkong to Las Palmas.



Now i have it in my hand.

It´s to be fitted on this Orange Alpine 6 to climb the vulcanic technical trails of Gran Canaria in very slow „Trial“ mode by 40º C.
Do you think the motor will overheat?



The 780Wh battery pack, 42 pcs. INR 27100 -50S Samsung high-amp. cells will be configured in 14s3p, soldered by myself and Placed in a 70 x70 x 400 mm DIY PVC case.
The case, (3,5 kg.) will be fitted by car screen rubber-glue to the downtube without any screws.



I´m traying to keep the total weight below 20 kg by using light components.

Saludos. Sammy

 

[hindesite]

After one year reading and waiting here, i have ordered a Foton directly in Hongkong to Las Palmas.

View attachment 350879

Now i have it in my hand.

It´s to be fitted on this Orange Alpine 6 to climb the vulcanic technical trails of Gran Canaria in very slow „Trial“ mode by 40º C.
Do you think the motor will overheat?

View attachment 350880

The 780Wh battery pack, 42 pcs. INR 27100 -50S Samsung high-amp. cells will be configured in 14s3p, soldered by myself and Placed in a 70 x70 x 400 mm DIY PVC case.
The case, (3,5 kg.) will be fitted by car screen rubber-glue to the downtube without any screws.

View attachment 350881

I´m traying to keep the total weight below 20 kg by using light components.

Saludos. Sammy

Nice bike, looks like you've done a few upgrades; would be a shame to put a Bafang on it, the Photon is a good choice.

You'll need to cut off the front ISCG tab, which isn't a big deal, if you do it right you can even use it to locate the motor. I have a post way back in this thread (April 2023?) about doing that, or see way down on Some comments on the 2018 Silverback Slade Comp

Motor won't over heat, in low gears you generally don't need much power (probably <500W) and you aren't trying to go fast anyway.

The flat downtube surface might work for gluing the battery in place, but I would definitely put a couple of decent velcro straps around as well. I use straps to hold my battery in place on top of the downtube, and it works really well, is very tight and very secure. Will you have issues travelling with uncertified battery? This is going to be a big issue for 3rd party batteries over the next couple of years - unable to even store or charge in some locations, and travel limitations will be imposed, too.

You will end up with a really nice bike, and a lot better than many off the shelf, at a fraction of the price. My conversion is (currently) 20.70kg, and my bike is a bit more low end and probably heavier than yours.

 

[hindesite]

View attachment 350703
I just jumped on the Photon hype train. Hopefully it lives up to the hype!

After printing out the photon template, and seeing how well it is going to fit my bike, I just couldn't resist. I was forced to choose a throttle, which I don't plan on running, so I added the Photon 1t1 display-only cable to my cart, and the BB cup tool so I can crank it down with a breaker bar.

I would also have picked up the chainring removal tool, the pin spanner supplied is close to useless. It seems to be a new addition to their shop, as they build the ability to do your own servicing (a 180 reversal from their previous attitude to repairs).

https://www.cycmotor.com/product-page/photon-chainring-removal-tool

Maybe you can add to your order before it ships.

 

[nervagon]

I would also have picked up the chainring removal tool, the pin spanner supplied is close to useless. It seems to be a new addition to their shop, as they build the ability to do your own servicing (a 180 reversal from their previous attitude to repairs).

https://www.cycmotor.com/product-page/photon-chainring-removal-tool

Maybe you can add to your order before it ships.

It's already on my bike. Order shipped immediately. But I do plan on picking that up, thanks. The 1:1 cable is a little short. I might buy a second and splice them together, so I might be placing another order.

 

[SammySamm]

if you do it right you can even use it to locate the motor.

Thx. a very good hint

This is going to be a big issue for 3rd party batteries over the next couple of years - unable to even store or charge in some locations, and travel limitations will be imposed, too.

Yes......But since nobody has detected my DIY batteries as a 3rd party.

 

[smitty2k1]

I got a Grin All Axle V3 coming for my 20" longtail cargo bike but y'all are giving me some Photon envy.

 

[raylo32]

The ordering experience there is really good. They have that part down. But just hope you don't need tech support or returns/exchanges, unless maybe you can go there in person.

Report on the ordering experience with ElectrifyBike:

Ordered Monday morning. Tracking number within 1.5hrs and package in transit that same day. Photon arrived Wednesday morning. Very fast order turnaround. Obviously they have stock on hand.

 

[neptronix]

I got a Grin All Axle V3 coming for my 20" longtail cargo bike but y'all are giving me some Photon envy.

It's the other way around.
The all axle motor hits peak continuous power and efficiency in a 20" wheel and because of this you get >3x the continuous power possible for only a couple lbs of additional weight.



Put ferrofluid and hubsinks on this bad boy and you will have no problem scaling big hills either. And you have regen as well.