Cyclone 1200w vs ebay Hub Motors

[Wizzbit]

Trying to decide the best kit for the money and narrowed it down to these 2:

Cyclone 1200W
http://www.eclipsebikes.com/chainwheel-1200-watt-ebike-p-1023.html

Chinese Hub Motor
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/R-48V-1000W-DISC-Electric-Bicycle-Kit-Hub-Motor-Scooters-Conversion-SAL-Air-26-/130671816575?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Scooters_LE&hash=item1e6ca5af7f

Will be used with 48v 15ah ping battery or BMS.com battery.

The ebay is the budget option, Ive seen guys on other forums get over 30mph flat ground no pedal, which is good in my books.
I'm under the impression the Cyclone kit will be faster, I hope a 48v 15ah battery is suitable for it, or i could get 60v 10ah, would that be faster? (newbie I am)

I prefer the cyclone set up with the motor on the frame rather than changing the wheels, especially as I have good specialized wheels and d brakes.
However I would still like to hear other opinions before I invest such money, so what do you think guys? Thanks.

 

[tony67]

Given the 2 options I would (and did) go for the cyclone from eclipse. Running through the gears gives a very versatile bike. No hub motor of equivalent power could climb the same grade of hill while being capable of the same speeds.

It's not all positive for the cyclone though. They require more maintenance and are noisier than dd hubs while also being slightly less efficient.

IMO you would have to consider a high quality dd hub such as hs3540 to outweigh the benefits of the cyclone. That being said, it is entirely dependant on what you intend to use it for. If your use is mostly on flat terrain with very little stop/start, a dd hub starts to look more appealing.

This is my build, if you decide to go cyclone and need any help, let me know.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=37518

Tony

 

[Drunkskunk]

This realy depends on what you want to bike to do, and how talented you are with a wrench. .... and how lucky you get.

The Cyclone is a through-the-chain style motor. great for torque and climbing, but it sounds like a power drill and will look like a grade school science project when finished. Your wife/girlfriend/mistress/hand may be embarrassed to be seen with you unless she/it is the type to enjoy startrek conventions and doesn't mind the duct tape aero improvements you made to her car.

On the other hand, the ebay motor is a bag of mystery. it may or may not look like the picture, and may or may not work, and may or may not have any sales or technical support after the sale. I would only risk that if I had just won a bunch of money at poker and needed to dispose of the money before the wife/girlfriend/mistress/hand found out.


But to sum up the abstract, through-the-gears BB motors are good for climbing steep things, and scaring people.
Direct drive hub motors are good for stealthy cruising at constant speeds.

(both those listed will be peak power, not nominal power which is how most ebike motors are rated. likely they are 500w motors)

 

[Wizzbit]

Tony, the maintenance and noise issues are a downer, stealthier the better and I'm no mechanic,
from your ears how loud is it? Im hoping Drunkskunk has highly sensetive ears :lol:

Drunkskunk, damn man, cant have my hand getting embarrassed!
Tony's cyclone set up looks smart enough to me, I have a similar style bike, the noise bit does put me off though.
As for the ebay one, I didnt win no poker recently, so deleted from options it is, which brings new questions

What are the best options for hub kits?

I looked at the hs3540 and the price seems ok, problem is I'm cautious to order from U.S due to customs charge, (Asia stuff seems to come through ok) (Im in U.k)

So Im still leaning towards the cyclone but if you can recommend a hub kit that would suit?

Thanks again.

 

[neptronix]

Cyclones are known to be really unreliable.
So is anything that is related to batteries from bmsbattery.

The ping battery is definitely a quality buy.

The eBay kit might be allright. But it's very possible that it comes with a crap rim / spoke setup which ends up costing you more $.

For cheap DD hub kits, i recommend cell_man's MXUS kit.

 

[tony67]

Tony, the maintenance and noise issues are a downer, stealthier the better and I'm no mechanic,
from your ears how loud is it? Im hoping Drunkskunk has highly sensetive ears :lol:

Drunkskunk, damn man, cant have my hand getting embarrassed!
Tony's cyclone set up looks smart enough to me, I have a similar style bike, the noise bit does put me off though.
As for the ebay one, I didnt win no poker recently, so deleted from options it is, which brings new questions

What are the best options for hub kits?

I looked at the hs3540 and the price seems ok, problem is I'm cautious to order from U.S due to customs charge, (Asia stuff seems to come through ok) (Im in U.k)

So Im still leaning towards the cyclone but if you can recommend a hub kit that would suit?

Thanks again.

I should note that my setup is the single chain wheel cyclone so allows for the motor to be mounted under the BB which to me and most people I encounter is perfectly stealthy. The triple chain wheel kit you linked to needs the motor to be mounted in the downtube and so can look a bit agricultural. TBH the triple chain wheel is not necessary unless you want to climb vertical walls. On the 1200w cyclone a 48t chainring together with a 28t-14t freewheel will easily cover any situation. If you want stealth I'd prob opt for lipo as opposed to lifepo4. The light weight means it'll happily sit in a rear bag. I had to move my headway pack from the rack to the current location because it was too heavy out the back.

Noise with the cyclone is an issue unfortunately, any geared motor is going to emit noise. I've reduced the noise of mine by adding oil to the gear box grease, however it doesn't come close to being as quiet as a dd hub and never will. I reduce the noise further by switching to a lower gear (therefore slowing the motor down) and pedalling, reducing the load on the motor. If I run it in 2nd gear with no pedalling she's a howler.

I cannot speak with any authority on hub motors, I only know what I've read as I have no experience with them. I will say the hs3540 has a good reputation and I am considering one for the future to complement my cyclone. You can buy from within Europe therefore avoiding the unknown duty from http://www.crystalyte-europe.com/home.php.

Tony

PS the 1200 watt figure is nominal, my watt meter peaks at 1900watts under acceleration with the standard controller.

 

[Wizzbit]

Cyclones are known to be really unreliable.
So is anything that is related to batteries from bmsbattery.

The ping battery is definitely a quality buy.

The eBay kit might be allright. But it's very possible that it comes with a crap rim / spoke setup which ends up costing you more $.

For cheap DD hub kits, i recommend cell_man's MXUS kit.

Ping it is, I checked out the mxus kit on emissions free and its a good price but the Mac 1000W Rear Kit may be more suited as I want bigger power. Cheers. 8)

I should note that my setup is the single chain wheel cyclone so allows for the motor to be mounted under the BB which to me and most people I encounter is perfectly stealthy. The triple chain wheel kit you linked to needs the motor to be mounted in the downtube and so can look a bit agricultural. TBH the triple chain wheel is not necessary unless you want to climb vertical walls. On the 1200w cyclone a 48t chainring together with a 28t-14t freewheel will easily cover any situation. If you want stealth I'd prob opt for lipo as opposed to lifepo4. The light weight means it'll happily sit in a rear bag. I had to move my headway pack from the rack to the current location because it was too heavy out the back.

Noise with the cyclone is an issue unfortunately, any geared motor is going to emit noise. I've reduced the noise of mine by adding oil to the gear box grease, however it doesn't come close to being as quiet as a dd hub and never will. I reduce the noise further by switching to a lower gear (therefore slowing the motor down) and pedalling, reducing the load on the motor. If I run it in 2nd gear with no pedalling she's a howler.

I cannot speak with any authority on hub motors, I only know what I've read as I have no experience with them. I will say the hs3540 has a good reputation and I am considering one for the future to complement my cyclone. You can buy from within Europe therefore avoiding the unknown duty from http://www.crystalyte-europe.com/home.php.

Tony

PS the 1200 watt figure is nominal, my watt meter peaks at 1900watts under acceleration with the standard controller.

Ah the cyclone does sound perfect - except that one thing, I don't want heads turning down the street saying
"there goes mr power-drill"...

I found the hs3540 but it says max speed 40kmh which is a little on the slow side for me
http://www.crystalyte-europe.com/product.php?productid=16447&cat=250&page=1

The mac1000
http://www.emissions-free.com/catalog/i24.html
Goes 56kph, 35mph on 48V 16S LiFePO4 which is fast enough.

So I want a rear hub kit that goes at least 50kmh that preferably ships from eu and is disk brake compatible...

Also which one of these should I go for? What is the difference in having more watts and less amps
http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-12/48V-15AH-V2.5-LiFePO4/Detail
http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-18/60v-10ah-lifepo4-lithium/Detail

This guy got almost 50MPH with NC2806 kit using 74V15Ah, and easily over 30MPH with 51.2V15Ah Ping battery:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=38636

I know Im asking a lot of questions, but its coz £700 is a lot to me so I'm making absolutely sure I get what I want,
Cheers peeps.

 

[Wizzbit]

Just found a quote from member MVLY full thread here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29765

"If you want something reliable, I would go for the crystalyte hs3540 with 72v setup, you can get into the 40mph club in flats without wind. They are also more hardy and can take abuse much better that the bmc/Mac."

So it looks like hs3540 could be the one, Im so confused coz on the website it says 40kmh max...

 

[Wizzbit]

Heres a full kit with ping battery and impressive specs top speed 34mph (55KM/H) and distance 28 M (45KM) no pedal with 83kg rider, not bad I say, 2 weeks free shipping!

http://www.electric-bikekit.com/912-1049-inc-postage-full-e-bike-kit-2w-delivery/1049-for-48v1000w-electric-bike-conversion-kit-full-package-direct-drive-pingbattery-lifepo4-battery-postage-included-for-us-ca-aus-europe-2-weeks-delivery/

 

[dogman dan]

The cyclone is not so unreliable as the rider. Really common for folks to murder them by riding around in too high a gear all day. Too tall geared up the hill will croak any motor.

Suggesting a good compromise between cyclone and dd hubmotor. the 8t Mac from Emissions Free. Good climbing, not excessivly noisy, and not crazy expensive. VERY trusted vendor. Just slow if you choose cheap slow shipping to shave a buck. At 48v, you won't quite reach 30 mph with that winding, but it's a great entry motor into ebiking.

Later on, you'll want to join the 40 mph club, but do that with a dd motor and the lessons you learned at 25 mph.

 

[dogman dan]

Papasan's not on our trusted vendor list yet. So do the standard thing, cut any kind of claims for speed and range in half, or more. The battery may not even be a ping. "just like a ping maybe" yeah right.

Somebody needs to guinea pig this kit for us, review it, and tell all the truth about it. It could be a great deal on a kit with a real pingbattery. But it takes more than he says so on an internet ad to get on the ES trusted vendor list.

 

[Wizzbit]

The cyclone is not so unreliable as the rider. Really common for folks to murder them by riding around in too high a gear all day. Too tall geared up the hill will croak any motor.

Suggesting a good compromise between cyclone and dd hubmotor. the 8t Mac from Emissions Free. Good climbing, not excessivly noisy, and not crazy expensive. VERY trusted vendor. Just slow if you choose cheap slow shipping to shave a buck. At 48v, you won't quite reach 30 mph with that winding, but it's a great entry motor into ebiking.

Later on, you'll want to join the 40 mph club, but do that with a dd motor and the lessons you learned at 25 mph.

I look at this more as a one time investment, I wont want to spend any more money on the bike for a loong time after this, which is why I want something that I wont be disappointing with, I cycle 30mph down a local hill, and I think that would be the minimum flat ground speed I would be happy with from an ebike.
Im gonna check out the 8t mac though 8)

Papasan's not on our trusted vendor list yet. So do the standard thing, cut any kind of claims for speed and range in half, or more. The battery may not even be a ping. "just like a ping maybe" yeah right.

Somebody needs to guinea pig this kit for us, review it, and tell all the truth about it. It could be a great deal on a kit with a real pingbattery. But it takes more than he says so on an internet ad to get on the ES trusted vendor list.

I hear ya, but I do think its a real ping, because look:
http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/Service

 

[Wizzbit]

Just found a way to get papamotor even cheaper, you can design your own
http://www.electric-bikekit.com/customize-conversion-kit/customize-my-conversion-kit-50-coupon-ppm50dollars-available-when-checkout/

I do agree with dogman though it would be good to see a forum review

 

[MadRhino]

...
I look at this more as a one time investment, I wont want to spend any more money on the bike for a loong time after this, ...

This is unlikely to happen with the kits that you are looking for.

The only way to come close to that requirement, is to copy one of the builds that is well documented here on the sphere, and that meets your target performance. Choose a build that suits you, one that is old enough to had gone through all small fixes and has mileage to prove reliable. Buy the exact same components, mount them exactly as the finished and proven build, and you might end with a one time investment that you are happy with.

 

[d8veh]

If you're in te UK, it's guaranteed that you'll pay duty on stuff from the US. It's about 50% chance you get caught from China. You need to think about the legal situation: Stealth is important, and that means not doing 30mph without looking like you're pedalling very hard. If you have an accident, you will automatically be to blame and you'll be done for no insurance, tax and MOT plus a few other offences. If I were you, I'd aim for about 23mph, which isn't so noticeable The police are gradually wising up on ebikes, so be careful. For 20-25mph and good hill-climbing, the Bafang BPM or the MAC would be the ones I'd choose. Unfortunately BMS battery only do the BPM in 201 0r 393rpm, so you'd have to find another supplier, but Cell--man does the MAC in all speed variants. If you buy from him it makes sence to get one of his A123 batteries at ther same time. There's another option in direct drives from a UK supplier and that's the Xipii kit from http://www.Xipi.com. I'm sure he can sort you out something.

 

[tony67]

As has been said I wouldn't be too obsessed with top speed. You'll find you'll spend most of your time doing fast bicycle speeds, between 20-30 mph any faster and the eye is on you too much. Also bicycles have a tendency to become less stable to rapid changes of direction above 25mph. The light weight, steering geometry and less than rigid frame/wheels all produce a loose sensation. The hs3540 figure of 40kph is based on 36v. If you increase to 48v like you intend to, you should be able to nudge 50kph and to start off with that really is fast enough.
If in future you feel the need for more speed just add battery voltage 72v on a hs3540 has yielded some impressive results. Just remember when buying a controller leave room for upgrading. Lyen does some high performance units capable of reprogramming.

Tony

 

[Wizzbit]

The only way to come close to that requirement, is to copy one of the builds that is well documented here on the sphere, and that meets your target performance...

Hi MadRhino Ive been looking at builds around the site, and although not going into exact specifications, I have observed good quality hubmotors such as hs3540 combined with 48v 15ah lifepo4 do consistently reach 30MPH +.
And I agree copying the exact setup would be more guaranteed.

If you're in te UK, it's guaranteed that you'll pay duty on stuff from the US. It's about 50% chance you get caught from China. You need to think about the legal situation: Stealth is important, and that means not doing 30mph without looking like you're pedalling very hard. If you have an accident, you will automatically be to blame and you'll be done for no insurance, tax and MOT plus a few other offences. If I were you, I'd aim for about 23mph, which isn't so noticeable The police are gradually wising up on ebikes, so be careful. For 20-25mph and good hill-climbing, the Bafang BPM or the MAC would be the ones I'd choose. Unfortunately BMS battery only do the BPM in 201 0r 393rpm, so you'd have to find another supplier, but Cell--man does the MAC in all speed variants. If you buy from him it makes sence to get one of his A123 batteries at ther same time. There's another option in direct drives from a UK supplier and that's the Xipii kit from http://www.Xipi.com. I'm sure he can sort you out something.

Yeah Im gonna try order from eu or uk places, but keeping my options open in regards to the papamotor.
I wouldn't go 30mph in a public area, but I do a lot of off road biking, Id like to know Ive got the power if I needed it.
In normal road situations I would be going half that.
The Xipi site is .co.uk, although they look good, the price is way above my head, but maybe I should email him, thanks.

As has been said I wouldn't be too obsessed with top speed. You'll find you'll spend most of your time doing fast bicycle speeds, between 20-30 mph any faster and the eye is on you too much. Also bicycles have a tendency to become less stable to rapid changes of direction above 25mph. The light weight, steering geometry and less than rigid frame/wheels all produce a loose sensation. The hs3540 figure of 40kph is based on 36v. If you increase to 48v like you intend to, you should be able to nudge 50kph and to start off with that really is fast enough.
If in future you feel the need for more speed just add battery voltage 72v on a hs3540 has yielded some impressive results. Just remember when buying a controller leave room for upgrading. Lyen does some high performance units capable of reprogramming.

Tony

Good advice man, the hs3540 sounds like a good option, I may be wrong but the crystalite site only seems to sell the motors alone not the rest of the kit? They have whole kits with battery but they are 930euro, I was planning to buy the whole kit minus the battery which I would pingbattery.com...

I found a good vid of the hs3540, he's using a pretty powerful battery but says it still pulls over 30mph with a more reasonable one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjwQOuSI5-w

 

[tony67]

You can buy all the components separately on the europe site however they are not the cheapest people to buy from. If i were you I'd buy the motor laced into a wheel from them. Then get onto Lyen for a controller keeping in mind possible future upgrades. I got his 12 fet extreme modder controller a while back which is supposed to be good. I've yet to fit it though. While your on to him get him to send you a throttle, full or half twist. IMO avoid thumb throttles. Get a few bags of anderson power poles and replace everything with these. At this point your bike is pretty much done.

The battery is a huge area that deserves its own discussion but the ping is known as a good battery if a little sensitive to high C rate discharge. I have no experience with them so cannot advise on them.
Lipo is the big thing at the moment, a little complex to set up and maintain but capable of huge discharge currents. Lifespan seems short compared to lifepo4.
Headway is what i have. It is lifepo4 like ping but is claimed capable of 10C burst. That is almost definitely optimistic. I put mine under burst loads of 4C and continuous 1-2C. I am confident of seeing 1000+ cycles out of this pack. I charge to 90-95% and discharge to no lower than 20% (usually far less) and manually balance every month or so to keep things even.

If you buy a ready made ping battery you will get a great product however you will pay a premium over what you can build yourself. You may also struggle to get 10-15ah capable of more than 30 amp current. By researching and building yourself from local supplies be it lipo/lifepo4, you could cut your bill almost in half or get twice the battery capacity for the same money.

To put that into perspective I built my 10ah headway for well under £300 sterling. I'm pretty sure you wont buy and import a 10ah lifepo4 pack for under £500. The question you need to ask is can you build and maintain a pack? If so, the answer seems clear, if not, the answer seems equally clear.

Good luck
Tony

 

[tuxman]

Hello and Welcome

Cyclone= Not suggested.
Hub DD= ideal when combined with a high voltage, high amperage setup. Feels more like a motorcycle.
Hub GD= ideal for low voltage, low amperage requirements. Pedal assist on hills. Feels more like a bicycle.

Suggest: Geared hub motor rear wheel drive
Suggest: minimum 10ah 36v batteries
Suggest: minimum 25a controller


I would recomened reading:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26488

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=28

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=4

And try:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php

 

[dogman dan]

Good to know the ping in the papa kit is legit. I hadn't visited pings website main page in quite a while, since the ping I have may last another 3 years or so.

In the past, Li Ping has had lots of trouble weeding out the bogus vendors from ebay, claiming to sell a pingbattery.

Knowing that you get a real ping, I can now put papa onto the list to offer europeans a place to buy in continent.

The downside, looking at that kit some more, is that the motor uses a screw on threaded disk mount. Obosolete now, and always was a pain to get things to line up. The motor often had a funky dish to it, which is gone with the latest bolt on disk rear motor designs.

So it fails the test if you have disk brakes.

 

[Wizzbit]

You can buy all the components separately on the europe site however they are not the cheapest people to buy from. If i were you I'd buy the motor laced into a wheel from them. Then get onto Lyen for a controller keeping in mind possible future upgrades. I got his 12 fet extreme modder controller a while back which is supposed to be good. I've yet to fit it though. While your on to him get him to send you a throttle, full or half twist. IMO avoid thumb throttles. Get a few bags of anderson power poles and replace everything with these. At this point your bike is pretty much done.

The battery is a huge area that deserves its own discussion but the ping is known as a good battery if a little sensitive to high C rate discharge. I have no experience with them so cannot advise on them.
Lipo is the big thing at the moment, a little complex to set up and maintain but capable of huge discharge currents. Lifespan seems short compared to lifepo4.
Headway is what i have. It is lifepo4 like ping but is claimed capable of 10C burst. That is almost definitely optimistic. I put mine under burst loads of 4C and continuous 1-2C. I am confident of seeing 1000+ cycles out of this pack. I charge to 90-95% and discharge to no lower than 20% (usually far less) and manually balance every month or so to keep things even.

If you buy a ready made ping battery you will get a great product however you will pay a premium over what you can build yourself. You may also struggle to get 10-15ah capable of more than 30 amp current. By researching and building yourself from local supplies be it lipo/lifepo4, you could cut your bill almost in half or get twice the battery capacity for the same money.

To put that into perspective I built my 10ah headway for well under £300 sterling. I'm pretty sure you wont buy and import a 10ah lifepo4 pack for under £500. The question you need to ask is can you build and maintain a pack? If so, the answer seems clear, if not, the answer seems equally clear.

Good luck
Tony

I would go for lifepo4 because of the lifespan, but I wouldn't know how to build my own, but I'm going to research it, if it looks easy, but if it looks too time consuming Il go with ping. Or (there's always an or)
I came across this site when searching and they have headway cells and battery's packs made from (I assume headway) cells.
http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1

Maybe one of those packs would be a better deal than ping?

I think if I did buy motor kit parts separate and the lyen controller it would be too pricey but Il have to put my calculator on the job.
Thanks.

Hello and Welcome

Cyclone= Not suggested.
Hub DD= ideal when combined with a high voltage, high amperage setup. Feels more like a motorcycle.
Hub GD= ideal for low voltage, low amperage requirements. Pedal assist on hills. Feels more like a bicycle.

Suggest: Geared hub motor rear wheel drive
Suggest: minimum 10ah 36v batteries
Suggest: minimum 25a controller


I would recommend reading:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26488

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=28

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=4

And try:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php

I'm pretty much decided on rear hub dd for overall performance and stealthiness. And yes at least 10ah 36v batteries
and minimum 25a controller. Im looking through those links, Cheers.

Good to know the ping in the papa kit is legit. I hadn't visited pings website main page in quite a while, since the ping I have may last another 3 years or so.

In the past, Li Ping has had lots of trouble weeding out the bogus vendors from ebay, claiming to sell a pingbattery.

Knowing that you get a real ping, I can now put papa onto the list to offer europeans a place to buy in continent.

The downside, looking at that kit some more, is that the motor uses a screw on threaded disk mount. Obosolete now, and always was a pain to get things to line up. The motor often had a funky dish to it, which is gone with the latest bolt on disk rear motor designs.

So it fails the test if you have disk brakes.

I do indeed have disk brakes, I'm now pretty set on the hs3540 or mac1000 with either ping batt or evassemble headway pack,
if I can afford it Il go 60v, Im certain that will meet my needs, but depends how much the controller and other bobbins come to.

 

[Wizzbit]

You can buy all the components separately on the europe site however they are not the cheapest people to buy from. If i were you I'd buy the motor laced into a wheel from them. Then get onto Lyen for a controller keeping in mind possible future upgrades. I got his 12 fet extreme modder controller a while back which is supposed to be good. I've yet to fit it though. While your on to him get him to send you a throttle, full or half twist. IMO avoid thumb throttles. Get a few bags of anderson power poles and replace everything with these. At this point your bike is pretty much done.

Update, Ive emailed crystalyte for a price for the motor laced into a wheel and all other components (except for the battery.)
And emailed Lyen for all components, (except motor and battery) so just waiting for their reply's.
Cheers guys.

 

[teacherphilenglish]

I have cyclone 960, GM 901, 902 and Magic Pie 3
I recommend the Magic Pie 3 hands down. $400, climbs good, very efficient, doesn't shut off after 2 min of non use (like cyclone) and doesn't care about water and snow.
I have a ping 36v20ah and it goes 50km road with hills, 60km road no hills, 15km+ steep climbing trail.
GM batteries are cheaper and have a case, but the small batteries have huge, heavy cases so ping is better for small batteries.

 

[Wizzbit]

I have cyclone 960, GM 901, 902 and Magic Pie 3
I recommend the Magic Pie 3 hands down. $400, climbs good, very efficient, doesn't shut off after 2 min of non use (like cyclone) and doesn't care about water and snow.
I have a ping 36v20ah and it goes 50km road with hills, 60km road no hills, 15km+ steep climbing trail.
GM batteries are cheaper and have a case, but the small batteries have huge, heavy cases so ping is better for small batteries.

The magic pie 3 kit from bms is a pretty good deal, comes with everything for $269 (not including battery or shipping)
Very tempting to get this and cell battery's from a uk site I think all together would be under £600 for a 48v 10ah setup.

 

[teacherphilenglish]

Yeah, I just rode my Magic Pie III 20km on logging roads then 26km on paved with my ping 36v20ah pack today. It was a good ride. $269 is a bargain.