Cyclone kit install

[psycosis]

While i have done some crude tests with SLA batteries, i got very poor range so i ordered a 20ah pack from ping. So while i am waiting for this to arrive i have a couple of questions.

1. when i was testing this with 4x7ah batteries i could do no more than 2 miles before the batteries went flat, i assume this isn't normal.
2. i put a 30a fuse in-line on positive battery terminal, this would blow when under power, i can't see any shorted cables so i can only assume it was surging. Is this common.
3. Additionally when testing i would get a big sag in power and all the lights on the battery would go red until i let off the throttle and i could accelerate for a bit, but it would cut out again.
4. since my ride is pretty flat, what gear is the optimum for the bike to be left in to get the best speed vs lowest battery usage.

I want to average 20mph (without pedaling)on this bike if possible with a one way journey of just under 20 miles. I can rechange at work for the return trip.

So far i have managed no more than 18mph assisted on the bike, and that was with me pedaling furiously.

Essentially i want to know if there is anything special i need to do before i use this every day to avoid blowing something up.
I will pick up a wattsup meter or similar to tell me whats happening, but other than that i have little tech knowledge to get the best out of this setup.

If someone familiar with these bikes could let me know the best way to set this up i would appreciate it.

Thanks

 

[Ypedal]

The 500w ( 24v ) cyclone will draw up to something like 40 amps.... 7ah sla's are not up to the job at all... the 20ah ping will be ok... 30ah would have been better yet !

edit : Oh , and Welcome to the Sphere ! 8)

edit 2 : shoot.. just noticed you said 4 x 7ah sla's.. so that's 14ah at 24v ( or are you running the 48v kit ? )

 

[geekybiker]

1. when i was testing this with 4x7ah batteries i could do no more than 2 miles before the batteries went flat, i assume this isn't normal.

I'm assuming you made a 2s2p pack out of them? You should get much much more than 2 miles out of SLA with presumably 14ah.

2. i put a 30a fuse in-line on positive battery terminal, this would blow when under power, i can't see any shorted cables so i can only assume it was surging. Is this common.

Peak current is more like 40A

3. Additionally when testing i would get a big sag in power and all the lights on the battery would go red until i let off the throttle and i could accelerate for a bit, but it would cut out again.

I think there might be something seriously wrong with your SLA batteries. 2 miles and this... have you tested them to make sure they are okay? If it weren't for the other issue, It sounds like hitting a current limiter or something. If your batteries are really low you might be hitting the low voltage cutoff the cyclone kits have.

4. since my ride is pretty flat, what gear is the optimum for the bike to be left in to get the best speed vs lowest battery usage.

This is more about motor speed. Just listen to the motor and shift up when you hear that its wound out or close to it. Close to max rpm is where the efficiency is.

I want to average 20mph (without pedaling)on this bike if possible with a one way journey of just under 20 miles. I can rechange at work for the return trip.

20mph should be no problem power wise. What is your gear like the the rear? Smallest sprocket teeth, and what wheel size?

Essentially i want to know if there is anything special i need to do before i use this every day to avoid blowing something up.
I will pick up a wattsup meter or similar to tell me whats happening, but other than that i have little tech knowledge to get the best out of this setup.

Sounds like the ping is a step in the right direction. Like I said, I think you have damaged batteries or maybe are charging them incorrectly.

 

[psycosis]

Thanks for the reply.
Here are the answers
It wouldn't work at 24v, so i assume i have the 36-48v kit. If i recall its the one they say will do over 1000w
i was running the batteries to get 48v 7ah, i tried it with just the 3 and it was still not very good.
i will get myself a 40amp fuse for it in that case, better to be safe than sorry. I have recently been running it without.
I can't even test the batteries now, since after winter and about 6 uses they are dead and no longer work. Likely they were charged incorrectly as i used a car charger after the company i bought the kit from never sent me a charger. These batteries were really a test to see what kind of range i might expect at full throttle. I figured 40amps would be the top level for one of these kits and if thats right, that should enable me to do just about 20 miles.

I have generally run it when testing on the big sproket at the front and the smallest at the back, if i pedal manually i ride like this, so i gave it a bit of help off the line on all occasions. This is fitted onto a mountain bike frame and the wheels are 26"

 

[Anonymous]

sounds to me like you must have charged the batteries on the wrong terminals.
I would say ditch the SLA's and run a hybrid SLA/ping system in parallel. This will give you the peak currents you need and the long range of the ping batteries. Any motor that starts up on a bike generally takes 8 x it's normal rated current. so If your motor is <1000w then you've got some serious muscle work needed from your ping batteries.

 

[psycosis]

quite possibly something went wrong, the guy i got the batteries from was less than honest and the batteries had quite a few marks on. It wouldn't surprise me if they were old items.
I had to make up a charging harness to charge all the batteries together but this was a pain in the arear, so i ended up charging them individually which may have inadvertantly killed them prematurely.

I have heard a lot more power is drawn when they are turned on. Some guy told me to buy something used in radios, some little rectangular things with wires coming out, he said it will smooth out the current drawn to stop the fuses poping. I tested these originally but they stopped the bike actually working.

So long as i can do the speed and range i will be happy. Even better if i break the 30mph barrier for the motorway section.

I have a couple of additional questions about these kits.
1. can you keep the throttle open on these motors without them overheating for prolonged periods. Last thing i want to do is to have to keep stopping to let it cool down.
2. what the the additional black connectors for on the controller. I assume for some kind of pedal sensor, but i could be wrong.

Cheers.

 

[deardancer3]

Your batteries are toast or were not even good bread to begin with.

Riding technique-- start off in a lower gear just like you were riding a non-electric bike. this puts a smaller load on the pack and gives better hill climbing, makes batteries last longer and increases range. Also reduces chance of breaking chains.

you can get the 40 amp fuses, but at 48 volts, 30 amps might be the right size with a non sagging pack voltage and using a different riding technique. If you go to a 40 amp 5AG/AGU versus 3AG/AGC fuse, (available at most Auto stores) the 5ag fuse holder will also work for 3ag fuses.

the black 3 pin connectors are for the optional brake handle switches.

If you are going to go WOT racing, the heat fins are advised.


I can average 18 mph on a 24v/360wcyclone range 30 miles --with pedaling-- with 20ah Lith Iron ph pack. If you use the gears correctly, you should easily get avg 20mph and range of 30 miles on 48v 20ah pak. Pedalling will increase range especially up hills. tucking in at high speeds good too.

edit #5 weclome!!


best

d

 

[geekybiker]

Your 4 batteries wired into 4s1p- SLA has a really low discharge rate 1-2C normally. With 7Ah that means 7-14 AMP without serious voltage sag, and potential damage to the battery. A 1000w 48v motor will draw 20.8A nominally. Probably ~50% more peak based on the other cyclone motors. So 30A or a bit more.

In comparison, the ping pack is rated for 2C IIRC. That means you you can pull 40A out of a 20Ah pack. So it should feed your motor just fine on top of having probably about 4x the range even if your motor wasn't killing your SLA.

So, yah your SLA batteries are probably cooked. Good news is the ping is spec'd right.

 

[psycosis]

yeah sounds like i should be ok.
This forum is great as i have been trying to get more accurate info from owners of the cyclone kits, but it seems they aren't as common as the hub motors.

Thanks for your help

 

[psycosis]

I bought myself one of those turnigy watt meter units, Wanted to check if its worth extending the wires so the unit is visable or whether i just leave it in the bag with the battery.
I bought a fuse holder as suggested, the fuses say the are for 32v application, will this be ok, as my battery is 48v? I couldn't see anything with a higher voltage.

On the Turnigy front, does it make any difference if this is infront of the fuse or behind it?

 

[Ykick]

I bought myself one of those turnigy watt meter units, Wanted to check if its worth extending the wires so the unit is visable or whether i just leave it in the bag with the battery.
I bought a fuse holder as suggested, the fuses say the are for 32v application, will this be ok, as my battery is 48v? I couldn't see anything with a higher voltage.

On the Turnigy front, does it make any difference if this is infront of the fuse or behind it?

I thought the same thing about my power meter but I never got around to wiring it in view - it just stays in the battery pouch/bag. In practice it's the averages that are of importance and I just watch it scroll through data after a run and make any notes I need to make. I was able to sorta calibrate my throttle LED's using the meter while stalling the hub motor. When my green throttle LED goes out and leaves the yellow that's about 46V. When the yellow flickers and LVC starts to happen I'm around 43V. That's really all I need to know during a ride.

Once I stopped running SLA I quit using a fuse for the most part. A BMS seems to render them less important? As long as the meter isn't the cause of the short a fuse on either side would be fine but with the meter before fuse - meter might still retain event data? Of course, with an external battery supplying the meter that wouldn't matter.

 

[psycosis]

I have an update, i finally got it all plugged together and i have a couple more questions i need help with:

The Turnigy meter doesn't show anything on the A or W section, i assumed these would have the remaining power in the battery, so i can confirm it has 20amps.
The lights on the BMS flash and some are off, i assume this is normal, it was like this when charging and shortly after.

The motor overheats when using the throttle. When i went for my test ride of 5.56 miles, as you can see from the data here, twice i had to stop because of overheating, this may be resolved with fins, but need someone to confirm.

Is there some way i can limit the power so i can do 20mph, 32mph is a bit too far for a regular cyclist, so i may get pinged by the cops for speeding.
The Turnigy says i pulled 50amps peak as shown in this video (after the ride shown in the picture above), that seems very high, is that anything to worry about?
[youtube]y_IJT5SM7AE[/youtube]



Thanks

 

[Ypedal]

The Ah ( Amp Hour ) shows you how much capacity you used.. the Amps and Watts will only show something when the motor is running and drawing power.

and i fixed your youtube link.. when you copy/paste, only take the segmentafter the = sign. :wink:

 

[psycosis]

That will expalin why its blank when i stop then

 

[kentlim26]

if you like to do 20mph = 32km/h... how ? you got to set your gears ratio if can
front crank 24t x rear 14t, or 16t, or abit higher gearing or lower gearing to find the exact speed you like.
the lowest gear setting speed i can find is 30km/h (lowest speed for 1200watts/ 900watts kit) So low, the
motor is so happy = so less stress = also means gear will live longest, no sign of wear off. and be very surprised
you can even maintain all the way speed 30km/h, no matter how slop you are going UP the hill, the speed seems
to be the same. when going down hill slop, it is too fast for the motor to pedal that speed. you can hear the motor
spining freely itself.

as for me, i think having to speed 42km/h is nothing, i don't expect a police to stop me. im pedalling !!

i have used to run my ebike for SLa battery on cyclone kit of 1000watts Big motor, that can only last me
5 or 10mins. totally it cannot work for a sla batteries unless you add one more battery (there is risk getting
controller blow, that day i can understand what it means "density" in that Sla battery. i have recently build
my 3rd ebike , Conhismotor 1000watts kit , i thought of getting 7ah Sla batteries, i had already fear for
that... 5 or 10mins ride which is too less to enjoy. your 48v/ 20hr lifepo4 battery the range/ distance
you can see per charged is at least 55km ~ 65km. i will charged my battery at 55km, after 3 trips i have
made estimate 55km distance. my total speedometer is 5010kilometers / cyclone kit 900watts.

to controll the speed much better, dont' used the half twist throttle, used a thumb throttle, so you can "inch "
your speed exactly "what you want... +5km/h more or less. Seriously it really works for me. i have been using
this thumb throttle.... no more used the half twist throttle. im giving free to my friends.... FREE
half twist throttle will make your palm numb after some times of riding eg. 10mins later.. The thumb throttle
is very accurate the speed you want. NO less and no more. Half twist throttle is Hard, because of the spring
i think is too hard for my wist, making it pain. Trust me, no wrong getting a thumb throttle to get the best feeling
for every ride, Since the day 2009 June, until now ... Thumb throttle maybe the best. As for the full twist throttle
has a little bit problem. Full twist throttle is also better then the half twist throttle anyway.

as for the heating part, i don't really notice over heat it. i think the fins it works very well. i can touch my motor,
Just warm only. my country average temperture is 30degree.

best regards
kentlim

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kentlim26

i just build 3rd ebike = conhismotor 1000watts, looks "abit" like stealth. SG Steath..

 

[geekybiker]

Is there some way i can limit the power so i can do 20mph, 32mph is a bit too far for a regular cyclist, so i may get pinged by the cops for speeding.

Might try a cycle analyst instead of the watt meter. It says it has the ability to cap speed.
http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml

The Turnigy says i pulled 50amps peak as shown in this video (after the ride shown in the picture above), that seems very high, is that anything to worry about?

50a is quite a bit if you're running. Its quite a bit on your 20ah ping pack even. Another reason for a cycle analyst. Current limit.

 

[psycosis]

The controller is rated at 35amps, the battery 20amps, at its peak its pulling over 50amps. I am getting something overheating, that much is obvious.
I originally thought it was the motor, but its seems more likely its going to be the controller. i guess it depends what it does with the extra power that was pulled from the battery. Does this sound correct?

If i buy a cycle analyst, i can limit the power that goes through the shunt/adapter connected to the cycleanalyst. As such i can then i assume limit the speed to 20mph. Does anyone know how i go about wiring this up since the bits i need are all optional.

If its simply enough to limit the power that can be drawn, is there a cheaper method rather than splashing out on a cycleanalyst.
What is the ultimate outcome if you limit the power that can be drawn from the battery to say 20amps, and the motor wants 40amps, does this just affect the speed, or does the motor become inefficient?

**EDIT**
I think this is simplier than i thought, i am pretty sure its the BMS kicking in in the battery. The controller is obviously pulling way more than its listed 35amps, and since i designed it around a 40amp max, this is tripping the BMS. I have emailed the supplier to check the symptoms when the BMS limit is hit. (it is around 50amps)
SO this may be very simple in the end to sort out.

As for controlling the speed, i may just have to use a lower gear, that should do the trick.

**REEDIT**
Apparently not, if the BMS kicks in i would need to stop and disconnect the controller for it to all work. I am having to do nothing except wait.
So its more likely the controller is overheating then maybe.

 

[geekybiker]

T
If i buy a cycle analyst, i can limit the power that goes through the shunt/adapter connected to the cycleanalyst. As such i can then i assume limit the speed to 20mph. Does anyone know how i go about wiring this up since the bits i need are all optional.

If its simply enough to limit the power that can be drawn, is there a cheaper method rather than splashing out on a cycleanalyst.
What is the ultimate outcome if you limit the power that can be drawn from the battery to say 20amps, and the motor wants 40amps, does this just affect the speed, or does the motor become inefficient?

I know I've seen other circuits to limit current around here before. Its certainly possible. I don't know of an easy way to limit speed. Since you want both functions anyways, why fiddle around with stuff when there is something that isn't horribly expensive and will do everything you need? I'm sure you can sell your watt meter on here to recoup part of the cost.

 

[psycosis]

It sounds like i need to connect it up in a clever way.
I have just got off another run, where i was a bit more careful with the throttle and i only had to pedal once and my average speed was 31kmh, so it may be i need to take care. I'll upload the turnigy data and the speed data.

here is the cumulative output as the meter hasn't been reset since my last run.
[youtube]PkmzNv8IqQk[/youtube]

 

[psycosis]

Just as an update to this thread, i went into work for the first time on it today and i got no overheating.
I have been a little bit careful when it comes to opening the throttle to try to avoid blowing fuses, so i haven't been zipping off the lights or anything.
I would like to work it out so no matter what i do throttle wise, the controller doesn't overheat.

I have a 36v 35amp controller and a 48v battery.
If i swap out my controller for a 48v version, i assume i will then have to worry about the battery bms kicking in, unless the controller is below 50amps and that figure is static.

 

[Anonymous]

I've got a controller that says it's 36v (cyclone kit) but have run it on 52v. peace.

Just as an update to this thread, i went into work for the first time on it today and i got no overheating.
I have been a little bit careful when it comes to opening the throttle to try to avoid blowing fuses, so i haven't been zipping off the lights or anything.
I would like to work it out so no matter what i do throttle wise, the controller doesn't overheat.

I have a 36v 35amp controller and a 48v battery.
If i swap out my controller for a 48v version, i assume i will then have to worry about the battery bmw kicking in, unless the controller is below 50amps and that figure is static.

 

[wineboyrider]

I have a 36v 20ah ping battery and a 900watt cyclone (headline) controller. I used to overheat a lot when my chain drive wasn't aligned, but now I just drive about 3/4 throttle now so as not to overheat the motor. I can still average about 13-16 mile trips averaging around 18mph though without any overheating. You just got to get a better feel for how hard your motor is working. The small tooth gears like the 11 or 12 hardly ever get used unless I'm going downhill.

 

[psycosis]

I have hit 52v on my controller, but since my turnigy meter isn't near my eyes i can't see if its hitting that limit and then its overheating.
I usually leave it on the middle sprocket on the rear and anything other than speed, since i pedal off the lights anyway so hopefully the motor isn't too stressed.

I will keep an eye on it as see how it goes over the next few weeks. I think i will be ok, since to and from work i haven't really had anything too terrible. Only overheating once when i gave it some beans