Cyclone with nuvinci hub

[k-harvey]

Are many E bike riders using Nuvinci hubs from cyclone as this could be my next step with my 960w 36v motor.
they are not garaunteed for more than about 300w but on another bike forum a guy reckoned lots of guys use nuvinci for even the piston motor kits which are far more powerfull ( i beat any in our town for to speed though)----------Its now near a month after this & wow the nu vinvi hub is something power loss where ? its made this bike into a quick towny bike where i hated intersections now i love burning cars off etc,. I thinknext stepis indicator lights as i havn't the time to put the arm out.

 

[iperov]

nuvinci is ~60% efficiency ,
better direct drive
better motor-wheel

 

[amberwolf]

Dunno about the cyclone, but many people are using the NV either in-wheel or as a jackshaft for motor systems. Just look around the forum for NuVinci and you'll see lots of threads about them.

 

[MattyCiii]

nuvinci is ~60% efficiency

I'd like to see the data on that.

I've been pedaling thru a NuVi for years, they make for a nice ride. I've looked at, thought about and notionally designed many ways to share pedal and electric power like many here have. Hard to do on my folder & keep its portability...

So I run electric power to the left side. I don't get the "power through the gears" I thought I wanted - turns out I don't need it. My small motor gives plenty of low end grunt without gearing down, and the high end is flat out frightening. Also whatever efficiency is lost in the NuVi pedaling is not lost on the electric power drive, and I likely won't void the warranty powering through the left.

I realize this is way off topic - you are not likely to want to ditch the cyclone for a left side RC drive - but I figured I'd share what I've learned.

 

[dumbass]

I've run twin 450w motors through the right side of a Nuvinci (N171) and it handles it with no problem. While it is heavy (6.5 bls heavier then a 7 speed shifter hub) it makes up for being able to be in the exact gear at all time. As for 60% efficiency that's BS.

Bob

 

[iperov]

nuvinci is ~60% efficiency

I'd like to see the data on that.

I've been pedaling thru a NuVi for years, they make for a nice ride.

because you just pedaled only nuvinci.
I pedaled various types of bikes.
There is no data about computer tests of nuvinci efficiency.
I just test pedaling flat road with no wind.
light fixedgear bike can drive ~30kmh easy.
Nuvinci I pedaled same road ~22kmh, and even 25kmh is too heavy to reach.

So maybe not 60%, but 73% efficiency ok. Pedaling power is too low to spend to heating nuvinci hub.

 

[amberwolf]

It appears to depend on the amount of power being pushed thru it and what "gear' it's in. Some have reported up to 1/3 power loss in it using close to or beyond 1kw, but not sure what ratios were used or how the drive gearing was setup. Others report less than 10% loss.

A test I intend to make on my bike is to create a locking pin mechanism to set the NV to 1:1 and lock the drive gear and the hub body together, so that it drives the hub solely as a jackshaft, and see what kind of Wh/mile efficiencies and such i get with that setup, then retest the same rides without the locking pin and just set to 1:1 ratio, so it drives interally thru the NV. If it has inherent transmission losses, they should be obvious by this method, although it doesn't have a way to compare/test the other ratios.

 

[k-harvey]

Thanks for replys -we'l see how long Dumbass's 2 -450w motors through Nuvinci lasts . Are u running it every day or what as losing a bit of power ok but stuffing it we can't afford.---




-I'm an oldie with a bit of $ so I've now bought one (Paid for it 8am one day received it 3rd day 8am not bad for from Taiwan to New Zealand , Well i love it to me for an e bike (you could use it with front hub motor though)& with cyclone its amazing . For urban intersections , lights, & traffic, it makes the bike so nimble & quick & safer as one consentrates only on the traffic instead of thinking what gear etc. I just hope it can handle my aggressive nature thats all---bought it before I read dumbass's next message though.

 

[dumbass]

Thanks for replys -we'l see how long Dumbass's 2 -450w motors through Nuvinci lasts . Are u running it every day or what as losing a bit of power ok but stuffing it we can't afford.

Honestly I don't ride that much anymore. But I've had this unit for 4 or 5 years now. And it's been on several ebikes with verying power from 360w Cyclones to the double 450w Currie setup. I used to ride upward of 75 miles a week for the first 2+ years. But that's when it had the smaller power units on it. It's currently on a single 450w 24v Currie motor but I am running a 48v 50a controller with a 48v 20ah 2c pack with it. Generally it doesn't see more then 1500w max.

I have no good idea what the eff of a Nuvinci is. I can say it is of course less then a sprocket setup. Due to bad knees I no longer do any peddling. When I ride I ride in forest preserves at 12 to 25mph max. I generally do a short 14 mile run round trip. I think the last one I did I maxed at 24mph and avg 17mph and consumed .56ah /mile. But this really means nothing because of up/down hills and wind + I'm 225lbs dressed and the bike is 93lbs dressed. If I hold the speed at 20 to 22mph I consume around .76ah / mile.

For me the pleasure of the ride is so improved with the Nuvinci that I really don't care what the eff is. The longest ride I do is 24 miles. For this I have to stay off the throttle unless I want to walk home. But at the .56ah draw it's no problem so I'm happy. I told my wife last weekend I may install a Nuvinci on her bike this winter. She always has problems with the shifting and is never happy with what ever gear she's in. The Nuvinci will be a dream come true for her. It's perfect for always fining just the right ratio. Of course you need to set it all up correctly between you and the motor.

There have been report on ES of guys pushing some fair power through a Nuvinci. But the 360 has been said to be a small problem with power loads.

BTW, I did a small test one time for load slipage. I road up a hill no idea of the grade but was steep enough that everyone had to get off mid way up and push their bike. With my little 360w and the Nuvinci in a fairly low gear (maybe 1/4 from lowest range) I road right up it with no problem. I actually wish I'd chosen a higher range but like all Nuvinci's I couldn't up shift under load so I had to wait till I got to the top. Maybe the hub slipped but it sure didn't feel like it.

As for the 450w twin setup. I've damaged a few cheap freewheels by hitting full throttle while coasting and broke a finger in the freewheel because my drive chains had to much slack. But the Nuvini never had an issue with the slamming.

Bob

 

[k-harvey]

one other thing is my top speed has reduced so I'll decrease the rear sproket to 16 as the book says --bit complicated the way they describe assembly inthe book. I was dis appointed when icouldn't shift gear under load so its a bit the same as derailer in that regard , I reckon there very little power loss but will do a peddle test one day to but with my 960w poer got heaps to waste -----wizzing aroud town there would be no other vehicle as nimble as this machine ---but its for how long.

 

[Josh K.]

Hello,

So, Yes, we have sent out several cyclone/nuvinci combos, and it does work nicely.

It's like a automatic trany, in that, you give up some efficiency, for ease of use. Not everybody wants to drive a standard,
and some don't care about some losses. If you have enough juice, and ride around town, who cares? It's a sweet ride.

But, if you have to go longer distances, and you like to get up and into the hills, run it through a internal rear hub, like an Alfine.

It will allow you to shift when you want to, and it won't get hot, with all that slip, when pulling stumps out of the Bog.

Josh K.

 

[kriskros]

i have just put a nuvinci 360 on my wood bike with a 1200watt cyclone....44v 20 amp lipo and a48v 40amp controller from Lyen... noisy accelerating but quiets down on coinstant sopeed.... im getting 50kph with a 20" wheel... grewat torque..only have about 200 miles on it as yet....performing quite well

 

[dumbass]

i have just put a nuvinci 360 on my wood bike with a 1200watt cyclone....44v 20 amp lipo and a48v 40amp controller from Lyen... noisy accelerating but quiets down on coinstant sopeed.... im getting 50kph with a 20" wheel... grewat torque..only have about 200 miles on it as yet....performing quite well

Be careful with the 360 model there have been several reports of failure when connected to motor power.

Bob

 

[iperov]

actually muscle power+contact pedals can produce motor power ~500 watts about 10-15 seconds =)

 

[turbo1889]

As to the efficiency of the Nuvinci Hub. Best report I have seen on that was from a guy who put one on a tandem touring bike that he and his wife used to bike across the U.S. from Oregon to Florida following the same route as they had done the year before when the same bike had a derailer gearing system installed with detailed logs of distance traveled and time it took to travel the distance for each day on both trips and comparing the results.

Long story short he concluded that it had taken a little less then a thousand miles to "break in" the Nuvinci Hub (new 360 model) and at the beginning of the break in period using time to travel distance with the difference squared (energy = mass * velocity squared) efficiency appeared to be about 70% or so and that number gradually increased as the hub got broken in. Once broken in he calculated that the efficiency averaged somewhere between 85% and 90% for the remainder of the trip.

His final conclusion was that even after "break in" the Nuvinci Hub was less efficient then a derailer gearing system but in his and his wife's (the stoker) opinion still preferred for their tandem since it eliminated the problems encountered during gear shifts that were breaking their combined pedaling rhythm and resulting in some interpersonal friction between the stoker and captain if his communication was not perfect as to when he intended to shift and especially if such a shift resulted in the chain not shifting smoothly and slipping during the shift on the rear cogs and then grabbing suddenly.

That was of course a non-motorized pedal only set-up but it was a tandem bike with two people pedaling which obviously means that the hub was under heavier loads and transferring more power then a regular pedal only bike.

 

[dumbass]

turbo1889, Really great peace of information. And I agree the Nuvinci does take breaking in. In fact Nuvinci will tell you they take several hundred miles to break in. While I believe the eff is at least 90% (actually I'm betting it much higher then that) I wish someone had a dyno profile on a Nuvinci.

I still think one of the greatest advantages that I love it always having exactly the gear range I want for peddle power of motor power. You never have settle for the best gear available.

Bob

 

[circuit]

cyclone+NuVinci:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRDjbXTKSp4

 

[Miles]

While I believe the eff is at least 90% (actually I'm betting it much higher then that) I wish someone had a dyno profile on a Nuvinci.

No way. Don't you think they would be shouting it from the rooftops if it was?

 

[sigimem]

exactly what Miles said. from the nuvinci forum an answer from one of the nuvinci people:

"In regards to the efficiency loss, that is not information that we publish to the public. Unfortunately, you will not be able to find that information anywhere.

If you are interested in reading a user review, please check out the following link:
http://nuvinci.informe.com/forum/bicycle-hub-discussion-f3/surly-karate-monkey-w-n360-t437.html

A user took it upon himself to write up this review before he posted it to MTBR.com. He does efficiency in his review so this might help you in your quest for an answer.

For technical data sheets, you could find some information (although not about efficiency loss) on our website at:
http://www.fallbrooktech.com/08_Bike_Specs.asp

Otherwise, I think you will be quite pleased when you are able to actually try the hub as it should exceed your expectations."

But I don't get the problem in my opinion it is a easy choice.
If you think of using a direct drive or the nuvinci kit the nuvinci seems to be more efficient. (there is at test with a scooter on there website under developer kit)
If you want maximum efficency go for a derailer system (perfect chain and chainline has 98% efficiency)

 

[dumbass]

While I believe the eff is at least 90% (actually I'm betting it much higher then that) I wish someone had a dyno profile on a Nuvinci.

No way. Don't you think they would be shouting it from the rooftops if it was?

You may be 100% correct. But so far no one has shown any true data of the eff of the hub. So far it's all been someones opinions of what they "think" the eff might be. True, the eff of the hub maybe much lower then 90%. But in my opinion there is a great gain being able to be in exactly the gear range for your ride. Whereas, on a typical shifer setup you are most always settling for the best you can get. Granted this is not an eff gain as such. But it sure feels like it when you have it.

sigimem, Great find on the Nuvinci forum. Without question I would agree with most or all Tom's opinions. The hub is not for everyone. And certainly not for roadies. So if you don't mind the 2 disadvantages of the hub (6 extra lbs over a shifer and lose of eff..what ever it is) then I think the average person will be very happy with a Nuvinci hub. As I've said I think the average person will love the smoothness and perfect gear range setting ability so much they will forgive the weight and eff issues. In my situation I almost never peddle anymore and every motor setup I've put with the Nuvinci the motors have screamed with delight.

BTW, One my bikes are off the car rack the 6 lbs added weight is not noticed until I lift them back on to the rack. One thing I do have to do is shift the max overdrive to push the bike backward though. And yes I do have a freewheel on the motor drives. I also have my shifter mounted upsidedown on the left side of the bar. I ride motorcycles and it less confusing to keep the throttle on the right for both cycle and bikes.

Bob

 

[turbo1889]

I wonder if it would be possible to bench test the Nuvinci for efficiency in a reasonably scientific manner using a 120ACV household current 1/4hp gear reduction electric motor that has an output range in the 40 to 120 RPM range (within the practical pedal cadence range) rigged with both a voltage and amp meter on the input line power, then a small DC generator on the output side designed to charge a 12V car battery via human pedal power also with voltage and amp meter rigged to it to measure its output, and an assortment of sprockets and a length of chain.

Start out by using the motor to turn the generator with sprockets and chain to connect them and measure the input vs. output wattage (Amps * Volts = Watts) at several gearing ratios to get a baseline for comparison (2:1 reduction,1:1, & 1.8:1 step up would be the best sample points since those are ratios easily matched by the Nuvinci hub at the bottom and top end points of its range respectively and then 1:1 is fairly easy to judge visually) and then put the Nuvinci hub in place between the two and run the exact same test and see how much the ratio of input wattage to output wattage changes. Obviously neither the electric motor or generator are perfectly efficient but their efficiency shouldn't change between the two tests so any additional loss can be contributed to the Nuvinci transmission between them.

Just a thought how one could go about doing an efficiency test on the Nuvinci themselves using items I know exist (although I unfortionatly don't have everything myself I'm namely missing the motor and generator although I have almost bought such a generator a time or two with the idea in mind it being very practical in a SHTF situation), and if they did I'm sure we would all appreciate them posting the results. A video posted to u-tube of the test would probably be the best.

 

[sbloom1]

Hi guys, a few questions and a statement. Statement first. I am running a Nuvinci N360 20 tooth sprocket (I am disabled, very weak legs) in the rear with a Schlumpf HSD in front w/Cyclone 650 watt dual freewheel (tadpole recumbent) with a 24volt 20 ah lifepo4 battery. This combination has been great for me. Road 6.8 miles over fairly level terrain, some small hills, and only used 1.03 amp hours. I try to spin in 60's all the time. So i use power as needed to keep that cadence. That range is incredibly low with the the 20t sprocket and 27 tooth chain ring.

As far as the Nuvinci no problems. You do have to back of power when trying to upshift but very little. Hope info is helpful to some.

Now my question. I bought a Cycle Analyst ca-dps, that why I know the above usage so explicitly My problem started when I realized that unless you unplug the battery the CA stays on all the time. So i contacted Grin Technologies (CA Manufacturer) to find out how to put an on/off switch in. I blew it literally, big spark when I flipped the switch everything went dead. I disconnected and removed the switch wires!

I have tested the battery with bms , output is 26.4 volts so I think the battery is ok. My controller is a Headline BLDC amplifier Model HDF 6006. I opened it, no fuses or links viewable and nothing looked or smelled burnt. My motor is a CY 650-1200 watt 24-48 volt unit. I did not open it but it does not have a fusible link or fuse that is visible.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[kriskros]

i have just put a nuvinci 360 on my wood bike with a 1200watt cyclone....44v 20 amp lipo and a48v 40amp controller from Lyen... noisy accelerating but quiets down on coinstant sopeed.... im getting 50kph with a 20" wheel... grewat torque..only have about 200 miles on it as yet....performing quite well

I now have over 500 miles on it and the motor is running a little quieter crusing at about 40kph..not much more than buzz

 

[wildharemtbkr]

(there is at test with a scooter on there website under developer kit)

I think I own that scooter! I bought it the other day, can't get it to go yet, the controller doesn't seem to be working proper. Anybody know how to rebuild a brushed controller? Maybe I'll get a developer kit controller for the hub and a kelly for the motor....
http://fallbrooktechnologies.com/docs/LEV_CVT_Whitepaperrev10.pdf

 

[k-harvey]

with my 960w cyclone, with nuvinci I have now made the drive cog from motor a 52 teeth with the 48 for peddling this increases the motor rev it does peform better it could even be bigger I've always thought even with 500w going up steep grades the motors revwas not at its best when one has the right peddle speed for the grade .I feel hub slip sometimes but so far its amazing. Great to here from others with the same machine.