DC Brushed motor efficiency question

cgbjake

10 mW
Joined
Apr 29, 2011
Messages
27
So I've been running my trusty 800w brushed DC motor for 10 years. It's 36v and I recently went to LIPO and installed a watt Meter and am unhappy with my numbers and looking to smarter people to direct me to some reading. A 4 mile trip brought me down to 39.27 volts after hot off the charger of 41. I don't run them lower than 36.5 as per DOGMAN's recommendation so I see that a short 8 mile trip will pretty much suck these dry. For a 20C 10AH pack I thought this is a little low. I'm concerned that my motor is getting a little old and may need to be replaced, but how do I test these old brushed motors to see if the brushes/windings are doing what they should. I have close to 2500 miles on the motor and it's been run with SLA, NIMHD (sp) and now LIPO. I have good meters and skills, just not the education on motors as I should. I also am pulling close to 60 amps on a full load take off...seemed high to me. I suspect that one of the brushes aren't giving full power and adding amps to the motor, but I'm just guessing and would like to have a test I could confirm with. Any ideas or forum posts I could read to learn about, searches give me mixed results. Thanks!

Have a great bicycling weekend!
 
Working out your wh/mile should give a more accurate idea of electricity consumption and efficiency.

You might also want to measure the no-load current at full speed (tyre lifted off the ground).
 
Not sure how to calculate the W/h stuff, any good links for all that to read up on?

No load I'm sucking about 2.2 amps...not bad I guess, Did a little more monitoring while coming home and found that I'm pulling over 1200 watts on a 800 motor...how is that possible? I never sagged below 36.5, but if I hammered it close to home I only drew 38amps but lots of watts, over 1200. I suspect something isn't right, just don't know where to start looking, maybe the for sale lot online for a new one! :)
 
Just wondering if adding a long length of wiring would give me these symptoms. I just rewired the bike to have power wires running up to the Watt Meter, maybe that is too much restriction...any thoughts on that?
 
Well, if you want longer range, having greater power flow capability is actually detrimental, because you use up more power on every startup than necessary, unless you really need quick takeoffs.

For longer range, you want to lessen those peak amps wherever possible.


Wh/mile is just that--how many Wh you use in each mile. So to calculate it, do exactly what the Wh/mile name suggests--divide total Wh by total miles. If you do this for any data collected on trips with other chemistry types and/or motor/controller setups vs the current chemistry and setup, you can see how "efficient" each one might be.

The lower the number, the longer your range.


Total usable Wh in a pack, vs Wh/mile usage, determines your range. So if you have a pack and setup that uses twice the Wh/mile that another setup does, but the pack isn't twice the Wh capacity of the other setup, it won't even get the *same* range, much less more, even though the pack is bigger.



Brush problems can contribute to motor heating and inefficiency, but brushes usually last many years. Brush holders should, too, in a well-made motor, but lots of them are pretty cheap plastic or whatnot, that deforms under heat and prevents proper brush seating. Same with brush springs--they can lose their springiness if they get hot enough, and no longer hproperly push the bursh against the comm segments. Brushes do wear away, and need replacing, and that you can check visually but you have to open the motor up in most cases--unless something is definitely wrong at the motor there's no reason to do that.

If the motor does not get any hotter than it used to, and doesn't really get all that hot, it's probably not the brushes.

If it were windings, it would probably not work at all, or be fairly obvious something was wrong with it, by noises, or cogging or smells or whatnot, compared to how it worked just before that failure. Not usually a gradual thing; you'd probably know if it had a winding problem right away.



1200W vs 800W--a motor is "rated" for a specific max continuous power. If you exceed that, it may get hotter than it is supposed to, and that could damage things inside it. Sometimes the damage is instant, more often it is gradual, over a long time, as things heat and cool and heat and cool, and sometimes nothing at all happens because the mtoro is very conservatively rated. Other times it's rated right at the edge of what it is capable of, and running it higher could kill it the first time you do that. No way to know without testing, but you can expect that most cheap motors are probably not that conservatively-rated. ;)

For the rest of it you will prbably want to poke aroudn the ES wiki, and do some searching and reading on the ES forum in various threads, especiallyin the technical reference section.
 
Thanks for your complete explination. I'm going to do a little more riding and evaluating. I'll start to learn my Wh/mile...that will give me a good idea of things, and a starting point at this point. I'm also going to take a look at my Brushes. I've looked before and although I see sparking at all 4 now, I'm not so sure it works well while under loads. The motor does get a little warm after only four miles, so I'm suspecting that for now. I also see a lot of dust in there, maybe it needs a good washing! 10 years of use may get a bath! :)
 
So I've pulled off the motor and cleaned it up pretty good. Lightly surfaced the area the brushes ride on (comutator) and ensured the brushes springs were strong and even. They all had good shinny surfaces and entact. Bearings spin very easily and no play side to side with them.

Riding to work today, I can easily pull over 1400 watts and well beyond my preset AMP draw of my cheap Kelly controller. I just don't understand a 800w motor pulling almost double what its rated for. Even after coming up to speed and having the bike in a lower than I want gear to make the motor work not hard at all (20 mph on flat) it's still pulling close to 800w. It just doesn't even feel like it's pulling hard at all. I thought it would pull hard and draw 800+ when accelerating, but when it's in maintaining mode, maybe in the 4-500 range. Just feel like there is something else drawing too much. I do have full power wires running to the handle bars and then back again, about equal distance to the motor, so I can read the meter. Wondering if the additional wire distance is causing some resistance and thereby throwing numbers off. First time with a true meter so I'm wondering if I should bypass that run and put the meter behind me where the batteries are see what I get. I'm about ready to buy a new $100 motor, but I'm cheap and want to learn a little first. I know you can't see this thing, but anyone have an idea if this sounds like a abnormal amount of energy going through the motor? Hope I'm clearer than mud here, I have a hard time explaining this stuff, almost as hard as figuring it out!

BTW, is there a wiki part to the forum that can explain some of this, I looked around a little and found some basics, but no real answers to this question...I may be using the search function inefficiently....thanks all!
 
You can put as many watts as you like through a motor. The 800W rating just means that's what the motor can handle without getting too hot (for its rated duty cycle). 800W does sound like a lot to do 20mph on the level, though. You're not fighting the wind, have soft tyres or rubbing brakes or anything do you?

For what it's worth, I tested my bike yesterday and it's hubmotor draws about 70W full speed at no load (wheel lifted off the ground). If yours is pulling, say, 300W then you know where the problem is.
 
I (briefly) owned a bike powered by a Heinzmann brushed hub motor and besides being loud it was inefficient using at least 40% more power (Wh/mile) than a Bafang brushless hub motor (same course, same average speed).

-R
 
Back
Top