Dead Leaf.

[dnmun]

all wrong.

the people buying these leafs are not clueless.

the penetration of EVs has nothing to do with any of this, it depends entirely on people wanting to drive with electricity, not gas.

the rate of adoption will be proportional to the cost of fuel and road taxes.

none of this will change the rate of battery development or costs.

 

[Arlo1]

deronmoped why are you even on this forum???

So we have some objective opinions on here, someone that just does not march in "lockstep" to keep from stepping on toes.

Some people need to get some thicker skin on here. What, do people ever leave the womb? Don't like a lively discussion, all they care for is "fluff".

If a person thinks I'm wrong, go ahead and tell me, present your side, I have no problem admitting I made a mistake if I thing I was wrong.

Get used to it, people are going to break your eggs sometimes, make you think from another point of view.

That and there is a lot of smart people on here, that provide a lot of useful information and help.

Dude this forum is about the greater good we are working to wards as a whole. But stating obvious limits on range of an EV is lame I think you need to take a step back and see the bigger picture. If we don't start somewhere we will NEVER START AT ALL. The Nissan started somewhere... How hard is it to buy some batteries and make a bigger pac for it. How long do you think it will be till Nissan offers them with a bigger pac?? If I plugged it in or used the charge pad every night it would cover my daily 66km drive saving me >50$ a week!!! If we/you flame an ev like this in a public forum it hurts the greater good in the end. We all know we want more range but lets just start somewhere already.

 

[deronmoped]

deronmoped why are you even on this forum???

He's a troll. I now believe he fabricated this "Dead Leaf" story for his agenda which becomes more and more obvious each subsequent post. Mr Miller seems to enjoy the "toxic" attention while at home in the South Park area of San Diego.

Yes, I confess I'm a Troll (whatever that is).

I made up the whole story. I'm actually in a 12 step meeting for Trolls here in SP, trying to correct my ways. But as you can see, it's not working, I still find myself on these forums taunting and teasing defenseless posters.

Sometimes, I almost don't think it's worth it, people like you expose me so quickly, then the fun is over, Oh boohoo, now look what you did, you went off and made me cry.

I'm going home now, gonna tell mommy on you.

 

[Ykick]

Fabricating scenarios is no way to earn credibility, Mr Miller...

 

[deronmoped]

deron can speak his mind, his views are quite common and this is a valid point. i get the mailbot from the oregon dept of transportation for the I5 EV corridor, from canada to SD. they talk about how this is the solution, but the fast charge stations only have like one charger, so if you would pull into the charging station, you might have to wait for someone else to finish charging, or maybe several people would be in line.

but if you look at the evchargernews.com website, they list many different chargin spots in the so cal metro areas, and people on the mailbot will post up when they use it so others will know whether it is working or not. this is very important if people plan for using a charger, get there and find that some meth freak has stolen the charging spot or it is just dead.

that's why i think it has to be a public program with charging spots being ubiquitous and all you would have to do is call up the app on your phone to find the nearest spot to charge, and if it is in use, or dead. using GPS to locate the closest and then search further along your expected route.

all this is gonna be the achilles heel, and it will take time to get it resolved.

the problem is guvment is putting so much regulation and permitting impossibilities in the way that it is not an affordable solution unless you do it guerilla style like i did, with no permit. i could not have gotten a permit anyway so i just built my charging spot with no permission from the guvment.

almost one year to the day i poured the concrete, the sidewalk inspector came by and gave me a red tag, posted on a stake next to my driveway. red tag said i was not to expand the area of concrete beyond current area, but no condemnation order so i never had to waste good money on lawyers.

so i have space for up to 6 EVs in my driveway and the parking strip part of my driveway apron and 2 spots on each side of the driveway. so up to 8 EVs could park and charge at my place.

not now of course because i have all my honda cars in the way, but eventually it will be the neighborhood charging spot where people can leave their car overnight or during the day to charge. but i am thinking 4-5 decades out, not right now. i expect the driveway is permanent. the original driveway was 8' wide and 90 years old. now i have 21' wide apron and i expect it to be permanent, should last 100-200 years easily.

That's something I did not think of and it should help quite a bit if the government does not get in the way too much and more and more people adopt it. Kinda like WIFI hot spots, people would be able to come by and use the juice. Maybe even business will take advantage of charge stations and offer some kind of service while you charge. WIFI service, car cleaning/detailing, oil/filter change... Lets hope stuff like this fills in the voids. This is all new, what eventually comes out in the wash will be interesting to see.

 

[deronmoped]

Fabricating scenarios is no way to earn credibility, Mr Miller...

Why so formal, call me Deron.

 

[deronmoped]

deronmoped why are you even on this forum???

So we have some objective opinions on here, someone that just does not march in "lockstep" to keep from stepping on toes.

Some people need to get some thicker skin on here. What, do people ever leave the womb? Don't like a lively discussion, all they care for is "fluff".

If a person thinks I'm wrong, go ahead and tell me, present your side, I have no problem admitting I made a mistake if I thing I was wrong.

Get used to it, people are going to break your eggs sometimes, make you think from another point of view.

That and there is a lot of smart people on here, that provide a lot of useful information and help.

Dude this forum is about the greater good we are working to wards as a whole. But stating obvious limits on range of an EV is lame I think you need to take a step back and see the bigger picture. If we don't start somewhere we will NEVER START AT ALL. The Nissan started somewhere... How hard is it to buy some batteries and make a bigger pac for it. How long do you think it will be till Nissan offers them with a bigger pac?? If I plugged it in or used the charge pad every night it would cover my daily 66km drive saving me >50$ a week!!! If we/you flame an ev like this in a public forum it hurts the greater good in the end. We all know we want more range but lets just start somewhere already.

The greater good?

That's really out there man. No one hear is thinking that we are going to save the World. That would be kinda delusional. People here are mainly interested in E-Vehicle technology. They are trying to understand them, build them, ride them... The Planet is fine, it's been around for a few billion years, and it will be around long after we are gone.

Please read my posts, it's not all about the range, it's about what comes along with having a limited range. Like you say the range limit is obvious and is totally boring to talk about. It's the hidden things with range limitations that need to be understood. Like: How will range limits effect the public, will they adopt them and learn to work with them or will they reject E-Cars because of them. If the Auto industry is not careful, they could create a sour taste for E-Cars if the range limitations are not dealt with in acceptable way.

How does a person "flame" something by presenting facts, peoples experiences... So when I post here that your mileage (as reported by "Consumer Reports") could be as low as 47 miles, that's "flaming" this technology.

 

[fizzit]

The Planet is fine, it's been around for a few billion years, and it will be around long after we are gone.

Yes but our actions as a human race can have a drastic effect on the habitability of the surface of the planet, and as far as we know, this is the only planet that supports life, so we should try to take care of it...

 

[TylerDurden]

The Planet is fine, it's been around for a few billion years, and it will be around long after we are gone.

Tell that to the folks in Fukushima, Chernobyl and all these other "fine" places: http://www.epa.gov/superfund/sites/


A genius runs a car out of fuel/energy, another genius blames it on the car/infrastructure/education/whatever.


I'm with Luke on this.... not enough of these brilliant minds select themselves out of the gene-pool.

 

[Sunder]

deronmoped why are you even on this forum???

Someone asked me the same question when I said I wouldn't invest $10m into a 1 man band ebike entrepreneur... It seems like some people take electrics to religious levels - you fully have faith, or you're an infidel. Of course carrying on that analogy, there are those who will dismiss anything religious with the same religious fervor. (You should see some of the conversations I've had with worshipers of Richard Dawkins!)

Seriously - Yes, there were comments like "I do not believe the introduction of motor cars will ever affect the riding of horses; the prophecies that have been made are likely to be falsified as have those made when the railways were introduced" but at the same time there are quotes like: "Segway will be to the car what the car was to the horse and buggy." And a decade later, we know what happened there...

EVs are solid technology. To say that they have no future is to throw the baby out with the bath water.

EVs are emerging technology. To say that they're our salvation with no further work is to polish handrails on the Titanic and quote "Don't worry! It's unsinkable!"

For EVs to go beyond a small market segment for bleeding edgers and bleeding hearts, a few things need to happen:

1. Standardisation - Every car takes the same petrol/gas nozzle. Imagine if you had to find a Nissan gas station, because Toyota filling hoses were square, or hexagonal, or too large. This standardisation could either be charging plug, battery replacement, or induction charging pads.

2. Infrastructure. Not only will homes need chargers - but possibly the wiring in the home would need to be uprated so that it doesn't take 8-10 hours to charge a battery. There are currently car wash like automated battery changers. Imagine if they were as common as petrol stations. Who would want to pump their own fuel, when in 45 seconds, a robot will change their battery without them ever getting out of the car?

3. Attitudes and habits. Perhaps one day we'll accept that our cars only go 100/200/600km on a single charge, and when we want to go further, we hire a hybrid, or a full ICE car, just like we'd hire a campervan or a 4WD drive, because our normal sedan isn't suitable for road trips.

EVs might not end up being the future - but for now, it's a one horse race. I don't see hydrogen taking any huge leaps, or solar. In fact, the closest competitors are ultra-efficient diesels, which could delay the introduction of EVs for some time.

I find it amusing and baffling that people could dismiss EVs so totally, but equally so that people can claim that EVs are faultless and any shortcomings is a shortcoming of the driver.

 

[MikeFairbanks]

My electric car hasn't ever run out of juice, and we use it everyday.

Here it is:

It's fast, too. It can hit 23 on a steep downhill slope.

But, seriously, it can go about twenty miles on a charge, and works great around town.

 

[deronmoped]

The Planet is fine, it's been around for a few billion years, and it will be around long after we are gone.

Yes but our actions as a human race can have a drastic effect on the habitability of the surface of the planet, and as far as we know, this is the only planet that supports life, so we should try to take care of it...

I agree, we should take care of our messes. But, what we do needs to be kept in perspective, people blow it out of proportion to get all the bleeding hearts to do irrational things. We constantly have Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Tsunami's and Weather that destroys, alters, a millions times over what we do, yet, we, born of this planet, a natural part of it's ecosystem, step on a leaf and all of a sudden the World is coming to a end.

In only a breath, Mount Saint Helen's destroyed hundreds of square miles of pristine wilderness, animals and people and no one bats a eye. Try to get a permit to install a power line here in San Diego's back country and all hell breaks lose for years. How come someone isn't putting Mount Saint Helen's and the the destroyed wilderness back together. Even though what we do is totally natural (we are not a alien disease to this planet, this planet created us and all our ablities) we are told it is unnatural and everything must be mitigated.

 

[dnmun]

ok, now i got a reply you will like.

talked to my old girlfriend and she lives outside denver in the mtns.

turns out some idiot drove a leaf dry on the road out of denver because they had no clue the hills would eat up the battery so fast. idiot.

but of course it was front page news in the boonies out there.

there are a lot of good commercial spots for a neighborhood charger all up and down the highways there though. but hills are the hardest, they shoulda been clued in, so not sure if they really knew better. i guess it helps to have this kinda news so the population gets a clue, and maybe helps to create support for a more ubiquitous distribution of charging spots without the maxo money inputs.

 

[veloman]

The Planet is fine, it's been around for a few billion years, and it will be around long after we are gone.

Yes but our actions as a human race can have a drastic effect on the habitability of the surface of the planet, and as far as we know, this is the only planet that supports life, so we should try to take care of it...

I agree, we should take care of our messes. But, what we do needs to be kept in perspective, people blow it out of proportion to get all the bleeding hearts to do irrational things. We constantly have Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Tsunami's and Weather that destroys, alters, a millions times over what we do, yet, we, born of this planet, a natural part of it's ecosystem, step on a leaf and all of a sudden the World is coming to a end.

In only a breath, Mount Saint Helen's destroyed hundreds of square miles of pristine wilderness, animals and people and no one bats a eye. Try to get a permit to install a power line here in San Diego's back country and all hell breaks lose for years. How come someone isn't putting Mount Saint Helen's and the the destroyed wilderness back together. Even though what we do is totally natural (we are not a alien disease to this planet, this planet created us and all our ablities) we are told it is unnatural and everything must be mitigated.

I agree that I don't worry about the planet. The issue is the environment we live in being polluted to the point where it causes disease and reduced quality of life.

Have you ever been a pedestrian or cyclist on a busy road? That ain't healthy to breathe, all that ICE exhaust. Think of how many people live with feet of major roadways, that's the air they are breathing every day.

When I pass across I-35 in Austin TX I hold my breath. The air smells like crap within a 300ft distance of the highway if it's not windy. We are on the edge of not attaining the EPA standards for air quality. The biggest cause is exhaust from vehicles.

 

[veloman]

That is why I think the Israel project is a great solution. You can charge the car all day long if you want to, but you have the option of pulling into a "Battery Station" and getting a fresh battery in five minutes.

I think the battery swap idea has merit and should be explored more. What if we could rent batteries?

Same method for ebikes, though not nearly as much need as most people can put a 20 mile range battery on an ebike and predominantly don't need to go farther distances. I still like the rental idea. Cost needs to be spread out over time. I look at the Ping website and think, geeze these are decent prices, but imagine if they were half that....

We need to get economies of scale on our side. Cities should look into renting ebike batteries at stations, maybe $1 a day or something. It should be profitable after 1 yr of use. They'd have excellent BMS's to prevent abuse and you couldn't 'steal' the battery - same system as Redbox or whatever.

But yeh, the battery swapping would definitely have potential for cars I think. Much work would need to be done, but the prospect is there.

 

[fizzit]

I agree, we should take care of our messes. But, what we do needs to be kept in perspective, people blow it out of proportion to get all the bleeding hearts to do irrational things. We constantly have Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Tsunami's and Weather that destroys, alters, a millions times over what we do, yet, we, born of this planet, a natural part of it's ecosystem, step on a leaf and all of a sudden the World is coming to a end.

In only a breath, Mount Saint Helen's destroyed hundreds of square miles of pristine wilderness, animals and people and no one bats a eye. Try to get a permit to install a power line here in San Diego's back country and all hell breaks lose for years. How come someone isn't putting Mount Saint Helen's and the the destroyed wilderness back together. Even though what we do is totally natural (we are not a alien disease to this planet, this planet created us and all our ablities) we are told it is unnatural and everything must be mitigated.


I agree that I don't worry about the planet. The issue is the environment we live in being polluted to the point where it causes disease and reduced quality of life.

Have you ever been a pedestrian or cyclist on a busy road? That ain't healthy to breathe, all that ICE exhaust. Think of how many people live with feet of major roadways, that's the air they are breathing every day.

When I pass across I-35 in Austin TX I hold my breath. The air smells like crap within a 300ft distance of the highway if it's not windy. We are on the edge of not attaining the EPA standards for air quality. The biggest cause is exhaust from vehicles.

I agree that pollution is a huge issue. However a possibly bigger, long term issue is carbon levels. Global air C02 levels were at 391 ppm in December, and human activity steadily raises this number. Many esteemed climatologists have stated that the safe level for the climate is around 350ppm for us to avoid catastrophic thermal runaway. Average global temperatures have risen a few degrees celcius in the last few years, which is a pattern that much outstrips natural cycles. And don't forget that the world's oceans are acting as a huge heat and carbon sink for the atmosphere, which is causing them to steadily warm up and acidify.

 

[deronmoped]

The Planet is fine, it's been around for a few billion years, and it will be around long after we are gone.

Tell that to the folks in Fukushima, Chernobyl and all these other "fine" places: http://www.epa.gov/superfund/sites/

You know what I tell to people that bring up the anti-nuke argument, don't stay out in the Sun so long.

You do realize that we live under a "nuclear" furnace all our lives. Sure there is a little distance, our atmosphere and the magnetosphere to help protect us. But even at that, One American dies of skin cancer almost every hour. In 2011, it is estimated that 8,790 deaths will be attributed to melanoma (one of the skin cancers). Current estimates are that one in five Americans will develop skin cancer in their lifetime. The World Health Organization estimates that as many as 65,161 people a year worldwide die from too much sun, mostly from malignant skin cancer.

Chernobyl, killed how many? You included Fukushima, but that accident was the result of what Mother Earth did, a earthquake and Tsunami.

See what I mean, people blow everything out of proportion. What the human race does pales in comparison to what Mother Nature is doing.

Try spending a nice summers day out in the Sun, guess what, your burnt to a crisp, by, you guessed it "nuclear radiation".

 

[deronmoped]

ok, now i got a reply you will like.

talked to my old girlfriend and she lives outside denver in the mtns.

turns out some idiot drove a leaf dry on the road out of denver because they had no clue the hills would eat up the battery so fast. idiot.

but of course it was front page news in the boonies out there.

there are a lot of good commercial spots for a neighborhood charger all up and down the highways there though. but hills are the hardest, they shoulda been clued in, so not sure if they really knew better. i guess it helps to have this kinda news so the population gets a clue, and maybe helps to create support for a more ubiquitous distribution of charging spots without the maxo money inputs.

This is what I was afraid of, something that has the possibility of putting a bad "undeserved" name on the E-Cars as a whole. It's not the car, but any news report about, a accident for example, will describe it as: "SUV runs into economy car and kills all". It's not the car that killed the people, it's the drivers fault, just like it's the drivers fault when he runs out of juice. I'm sure the news read: "E-Car fails at climbing hills". Not, "Driver fails to know the limits of E-Cars range".

So now, everyone that read that article is going to be thinking, not for me, not one of those cars that leave you stranded out in the middle of nowhere. And, they will even be telling their friends, don't be buying one of those "new fangled" E-ma-thingies, I hear they blow up (or however the story gets misinterpreted).

Didn't GM, when they put the EV-1 on the test market, select the drivers out of a pool of volunteers.

 

[Hillhater]

.............. a possibly bigger, long term issue is carbon levels...........

can we please get back on topic .....any topic other than that old dead horse !

 

[Joseph C.]

What if we could rent batteries?

You can already with the Renault Twizzy but would you want to pay €40 to €50 a month on top of the price of the vehicle?

 

[fizzit]

can we please get back on topic .....any topic other than that old dead horse !

deronmoped is claiming that human activity won't have any impact on the earth and that none of our actions can help it...

 

[TylerDurden]

Clearly, the geniuses that cannot distinguish a bad car from a bad driver, also cannot understand the difference between "habitable" and "uninhabitable".

 

[dnmun]

did you mean 'uninhibiditable'?

 

[REdiculous]

You can't tell me the Leaf is suffering from "stupid drivers" because it's on empty as soon as you start it up - when I can only make it about 75 miles in my vehicle, the low fuel light comes on. :lol:

I'd get the less-expensive Versa, rather than the more expensive Leaf. They might even out (cost of car+maintenance+fuel) somewhere around the 300k mile mark, but it's hard to say since we don't really know how much a replacement Leaf battery pack would actually cost consumers.

 

[REdiculous]

I take that back; The Leaf is suffering from "stupid drivers" because you have to be a little slow to buy one. :lol:

If you assume you can get a solid 75 miles from the Leaf; open google maps with your house in the center, go out 37.5 miles and that's as far as you can go in the Leaf before you won't make it home. You can get lucky and find a charger /out there somewhere/, but how long do you want to wait?

There's a definite limit to the number of miles you can do in an EV like the Leaf, per day. In an ICE, you're limited by the speed limit and your ability to stay awake..1250 miles inside 24 hours is totally possible.