Dead Leaf.

[oldpiper]

I'd love to have a Leaf to commute to work (80+% of my driving, I figure), only 22 miles each way, plus the occasional lunch out, but I can see that gas needle go down day-to-day. I bet that over 95% of my driving would take less than 75 miles to get out and back home, and that doesn't mean that I have to come back home in the middle of a day's running around to recharge. If I lived on a farm in rural Kansas, that would be another story, but I don't.

Cameron

 

[dnmun]

yep, the leaf is really a city car. we all kinda recognize that but he is trying to make the point that battery EVs are not the solution. for me my trip home is 1250 miles, 17 1/2 hrs. usually 5 stops for fuel, total 30 minutes fueling for the trip. so 1250/17=73.5 and i usually have to keep it under 70 in oregon, under 85 in utah, idaho, wyoming.

i read alotta news on the build out of the CNG and LNG transport fleets and development of the support along the major transportation corridors. this is where the focus is, but the guvment is still behind the times on this, all the development is from industry, based on cost of fuel and lower running costs.

garbage trucks and local area delivery trucks along with busses are all going this way. not electric.

i still think the plug in hybrid will be the 'middle road' for decades, and CNG could be the fuel too. i don't think it is that far off.

 

[deronmoped]

can we please get back on topic .....any topic other than that old dead horse !

deronmoped is claiming that human activity won't have any impact on the earth and that none of our actions can help it...

Your mis-characterizing what I'm saying.

I'm saying human activity is naturally occurring, this is because of the fact, that humans are a natural part of the ecosystem. We are not some aliens from another planet, we are not some disease form outer space. Believe it or not, this planet created us and our abilities to manipulate the environment. Probably ever creature on this Planet manipulates their environment in some way or another. To single out humans and say because we are smarter then the other animals and therefore our impact of the environment is bad, is wrong.

You can have a red tide that wipes out huge numbers of fish, but that is natural. You can have Beatles that decimate a forest, but that is natural. You can have a pathogen that wipes out the bee population, but that is natural. But us humans, disturb one rock, "Oh, better put that back where it belongs".

Sure, us humans have a brain and maybe we can stumble our way into doing something half right, but it does not mean we need to have a environment that is untouched by us "naturally" occurring humans. For if we don't evolve the way nature intends us too, then what happens will be unnatural.

I mean, when did humans become "unnatural", when we started to walk upright, when we learned how to use sticks and stones, or was it when we harnessed fire. Are the only people that are allowed to have a green card, are those that live under a rock. :lol:

 

[fizzit]

Your mis-characterizing what I'm saying.

I'm saying human activity is naturally occurring, this is because of the fact, that humans are a natural part of the ecosystem. We are not some aliens from another planet, we are not some disease form outer space. Believe it or not, this planet created us and our abilities to manipulate the environment. Probably ever creature on this Planet manipulates their environment in some way or another. To single out humans and say because we are smarter then the other animals and therefore our impact of the environment is bad, is wrong.

You can have a red tide that wipes out huge numbers of fish, but that is natural. You can have Beatles that decimate a forest, but that is natural. You can have a pathogen that wipes out the bee population, but that is natural. But us humans, disturb one rock, "Oh, better put that back where it belongs".

Sure, us humans have a brain and maybe we can stumble our way into doing something half right, but it does not mean we need to have a environment that is untouched by us "naturally" occurring humans. For if we don't evolve the way nature intends us too, then what happens will be unnatural.

I mean, when did humans become "unnatural", when we started to walk upright, when we learned how to use sticks and stones, or was it when we harnessed fire. Are the only people that are allowed to have a green card, are those that live under a rock. :lol:

Okay, I see. But you do believe in ethics, correct? Burning gas in a car and using a 2-ton hunk of steel to get around has detrimental effects on people, even if you don't see them. Take veloman's point on pollution. Babies born to families that live near major roadways have statistically higher levels of birth defects. SImilarly, when you burn carbon, it insulates the earth and allows it to release less heat, which in turn causes higher levels of water vapor in the air, which heats up the earth, which causes higher levels of water vapor. Some places already have very bad droughts, and these will only be exacerbated by this effect. It also seems that climate change is causing a higher level of natural disasters, and it certainly has a negative effect on agriculture. While these things may be "natural" you cannot argue that they don't cause suffering for other people. This is why I ride an electric bike and I am building an electric car, because I realize the effects that my actions can have on others.

 

[veloman]

I have to say that today I when out road cycling in central Austin TX I had a Leaf pass by me, then 3 minutes later a sweet looking orange Tesla passed, just after it got off the highway.

It was interesting to see two fully electric cars within minutes of each other. I wanted to thank them for keeping the air I was breathing cleaner.

 

[deronmoped]

Your mis-characterizing what I'm saying.

I'm saying human activity is naturally occurring, this is because of the fact, that humans are a natural part of the ecosystem. We are not some aliens from another planet, we are not some disease form outer space. Believe it or not, this planet created us and our abilities to manipulate the environment. Probably ever creature on this Planet manipulates their environment in some way or another. To single out humans and say because we are smarter then the other animals and therefore our impact of the environment is bad, is wrong.

You can have a red tide that wipes out huge numbers of fish, but that is natural. You can have Beatles that decimate a forest, but that is natural. You can have a pathogen that wipes out the bee population, but that is natural. But us humans, disturb one rock, "Oh, better put that back where it belongs".

Sure, us humans have a brain and maybe we can stumble our way into doing something half right, but it does not mean we need to have a environment that is untouched by us "naturally" occurring humans. For if we don't evolve the way nature intends us too, then what happens will be unnatural.

I mean, when did humans become "unnatural", when we started to walk upright, when we learned how to use sticks and stones, or was it when we harnessed fire. Are the only people that are allowed to have a green card, are those that live under a rock. :lol:

Okay, I see. But you do believe in ethics, correct? Burning gas in a car and using a 2-ton hunk of steel to get around has detrimental effects on people, even if you don't see them. Take veloman's point on pollution. Babies born to families that live near major roadways have statistically higher levels of birth defects. SImilarly, when you burn carbon, it insulates the earth and allows it to release less heat, which in turn causes higher levels of water vapor in the air, which heats up the earth, which causes higher levels of water vapor. Some places already have very bad droughts, and these will only be exacerbated by this effect. It also seems that climate change is causing a higher level of natural disasters, and it certainly has a negative effect on agriculture. While these things may be "natural" you cannot argue that they don't cause suffering for other people. This is why I ride an electric bike and I am building an electric car, because I realize the effects that my actions can have on others.

I don't buy a lot of what we are being fed because, what I see is, everyone is living longer. Not too long ago, the average age that a person died on this Planet in the early 20th century was 31, now its 67. If anything, life is getting better by leaps and bounds, as evidenced by the "radically" increasing life spans.

Sure, we don't want to roll around in our crap like some other animals do, but would we be living longer, if we weren't doing something right. Sewage used to flow in the streets, sanitation was probably one of the biggest things that we did to increase our health and survival. The "Black Death" killed tens of millions of people, do to poor sanitation. It's a "relatively" good thing nowadays, that all we have to worry about is increased "chances" of getting something.

I don't buy into the latest "Chicken Little" apocalypse because that is all it is. The same old disaster movie being made, what is this "The World Is Going To End, episode 3,000". In this case, you have a bunch of scientist, that have determined that they are "all knowing". They know everything there is to know about how the Sun effects the climate, how the Cosmic rays effect the Planet, how the whole climate machine works right down to the last butterfly flap. How the other Planets interact with the Sun and how that effects how the Sun effects us. They have this figured out so well, they can predict with uncanny accuracy what the climate will be like in 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, 100 years... That and you have to believe these guys are not human, that they don't make mistakes, don't have agendas, don't have ego's, that their funding doesn't depend on them continuing their GW or now their CC research, I mean how do you fund GW research if there is no GW, you change it to CC research :lol:

 

[deronmoped]

I have to say that today I when out road cycling in central Austin TX I had a Leaf pass by me, then 3 minutes later a sweet looking orange Tesla passed, just after it got off the highway.

It was interesting to see two fully electric cars within minutes of each other. I wanted to thank them for keeping the air I was breathing cleaner.

I came home one evening just after the Tesla's hit the market, and what do you know, one was parked on our street. That had me puzzled, as no one I knew on our street, had that type of money. My $500.00 E-Bike was as expensive as our neighborhood got, in the way of E-anything.

 

[deronmoped]

Your mis-characterizing what I'm saying.

I'm saying human activity is naturally occurring, this is because of the fact, that humans are a natural part of the ecosystem. We are not some aliens from another planet, we are not some disease form outer space. Believe it or not, this planet created us and our abilities to manipulate the environment. Probably ever creature on this Planet manipulates their environment in some way or another. To single out humans and say because we are smarter then the other animals and therefore our impact of the environment is bad, is wrong.

You can have a red tide that wipes out huge numbers of fish, but that is natural. You can have Beatles that decimate a forest, but that is natural. You can have a pathogen that wipes out the bee population, but that is natural. But us humans, disturb one rock, "Oh, better put that back where it belongs".

Sure, us humans have a brain and maybe we can stumble our way into doing something half right, but it does not mean we need to have a environment that is untouched by us "naturally" occurring humans. For if we don't evolve the way nature intends us too, then what happens will be unnatural.

I mean, when did humans become "unnatural", when we started to walk upright, when we learned how to use sticks and stones, or was it when we harnessed fire. Are the only people that are allowed to have a green card, are those that live under a rock. :lol:

Okay, I see. But you do believe in ethics, correct? Burning gas in a car and using a 2-ton hunk of steel to get around has detrimental effects on people, even if you don't see them. Take veloman's point on pollution. Babies born to families that live near major roadways have statistically higher levels of birth defects. SImilarly, when you burn carbon, it insulates the earth and allows it to release less heat, which in turn causes higher levels of water vapor in the air, which heats up the earth, which causes higher levels of water vapor. Some places already have very bad droughts, and these will only be exacerbated by this effect. It also seems that climate change is causing a higher level of natural disasters, and it certainly has a negative effect on agriculture. While these things may be "natural" you cannot argue that they don't cause suffering for other people. This is why I ride an electric bike and I am building an electric car, because I realize the effects that my actions can have on others.

No need to worry anyways.

Energy consumption has been soaring for the last thirty years and will continue to climb, as the population climbs and more countries living standards increase. All the treaties to cap CO2 emissions are falling apart, no one wants to be the first to slit their throat, as far as their economically is concerned.

So might as well enjoy it while you can, be the first on the block to break the 200 MPH barrier on a E-Bike. 8)

 

[Hillhater]

. All the treaties to cap CO2 emissions are falling apart, no one wants to be the first to slit their throat, as far as their economically is concerned. .... 8)

Ha ! .. you are underestimating the Aussie politicians who are sharpening their knives for a spot of self mutilation as we speak. !!

 

[Sunder]

. All the treaties to cap CO2 emissions are falling apart, no one wants to be the first to slit their throat, as far as their economically is concerned. .... 8)

Ha ! .. you are underestimating the Aussie politicians who are sharpening their knives for a spot of self mutilation as we speak. !!

Tell me about it. They put a new tax on it, then subsidize it for big business and the poor, exclude one of the biggest polluters (Petrol) making it essentially a non-behaviour changing tax on the middle class and above.

But what do they care? Their cars are paid for by the tax payer. Their work electricity is paid for by the tax payer. On their 180-350k salaries, what's another couple grand a year for their lights and home heating?

By the way - had you noticed that petrol is not taxed, but electricity - used to charge plug in hybrids and fully electric cars are taxed? Exactly what kind of behaviour are they trying to encourage with this tax again?

 

[veloman]

There's a definite limit to the number of miles you can do in an EV like the Leaf, per day. In an ICE, you're limited by the speed limit and your ability to stay awake..1250 miles inside 24 hours is totally possible.

I've driven 1860 miles straight a couple times, in 29 hours. I was almost always the slowest on the highway, at 67-70mph. I literally only stopped to get gas and pee, and occasionally buy a subway (had my car full of snacks). My old civic was loaded with all my belongings, about 500lbs I'd guess. THAT's how you get the most out of an ICE.

Use the right tool for the job.

In a dense suburban-urban area - an EV can make a lot more sense than ICE, especially for the people behind your bumper breathing the air. I give a thumbs up to every Leaf or Tesla I see now Of course, I won't buy a Leaf, I am not at all in the market for a daily car.

 

[deronmoped]

There's a definite limit to the number of miles you can do in an EV like the Leaf, per day. In an ICE, you're limited by the speed limit and your ability to stay awake..1250 miles inside 24 hours is totally possible.

I've driven 1860 miles straight a couple times, in 29 hours. I was almost always the slowest on the highway, at 67-70mph. I literally only stopped to get gas and pee, and occasionally buy a subway (had my car full of snacks). My old civic was loaded with all my belongings, about 500lbs I'd guess. THAT's how you get the most out of an ICE.

Use the right tool for the job.

In a dense suburban-urban area - an EV can make a lot more sense than ICE, especially for the people behind your bumper breathing the air. I give a thumbs up to every Leaf or Tesla I see now Of course, I won't buy a Leaf, I am not at all in the market for a daily car.

What, you have a pot of coffee sitting in the seat next to you, or were you just taking it intravenously.

 

[veloman]

What, you have a pot of coffee sitting in the seat next to you, or were you just taking it intravenously.

LOL, I have one small cup about 13 hours in, at 3am. You just need to push through the drowsy hours, then I hit my energy again for most of the day. After 4 hours, it's all the same to me. Of course, I rather not drive that far. The worst part of it is that I was going a speed just fast enough to come up on trucks, but nearly all the cars wanted to go 10mph faster than me, so I'd always feel like I was in their way when passing a truck even though I did speed up a bit, I didn't feel I should have to go 80mph. I'm too conscious. Oh, also, there's no decent radio when you aren't near the cities...

 

[Hillhater]

.. Oh, also, there's no decent radio when you aren't near the cities...

thats one reason the Ipod is so successful.

 

[oldpiper]

Oh, also, there's no decent radio when you aren't near the cities...

There are a lot of cities where there's no decent radio, anyway. I really dread driving through central Ohio without my flash drive and the plug-into-the-cigarette-lighter FM micro-transmitter (who needs an iPod?).

Cameron

 

[Hillhater]

.... I really dread driving through central Ohio without my flash drive and the plug-into-the-cigarette-lighter FM micro-transmitter (who needs an iPod?).

Cameron

Agreed, there are many alternatives to an Ipod... most phones will store & play MP3 tracks via bluetooth or FM tx, to a car radio ..and i have used most of them..BUT....
.... Much as i hate Apple business practices, i have to admit that the Ipod range of MP3 players is the most user friendly mobile music, ( & podcast, audiobooks, etc) system available.