Dear America,

[Philistine]

I am sorry the teachers that died did not have a gun and know how to use it because they died trying to save the kids and did not have the power to do so.

The kids had no one that could protect them from the crazy person with guns that walked right in the door.

You are so right E-Triker, that would explain why out of all the mass shootings that have occured in US states with insanely permissive gun laws (eg Texas, where I studied law for a year), out of all the mass shootings there have been all those countless examples of a vigalente returning fire with his hip holstered piece and ending the slaughter Western style.... Because that happens all the time right? In fact it is shameful how the blood lies on the hands of the gun control nuts, for all the massacres that were stopped or limited by vigilantes who stone cold popped those nuts right?

So putting aside Liquor store/convenience store/gas station stick ups where the shop guy shot dead the robbers (because almost all those are just cases caused by drug prohibition - very few people rob liquor stores for food money, they do it for illegal drugs), so putting those aside, let us now list all the massacres that were stopped by heroic gun carrying citizens in the US.........

Let us do it now........

None.....

(and let us put it in a time context)..... ever.......

WOO HOOO!

I stand to be corrected, but please post me one example of a whacko with a gun in the US who was stopped on a murder spree by a citizen (ie non-cop/army etc.) with a gun..... I wait with baited breath.....

I loved the posts of Thuds and Jeremy's above, Thuds post is why I read ES Biker Bar, because it challenges my preconcieved ideas and views, and it does this by being reasoned, measured, and hence enlightening for me. I learned something from Thuds post, because it was not invective or dogma, it was really well thought out and validly argued.

I personally think that certain types of guns should be controlled (eg semi-autos and handguns), because unlike drugs (which should be legalised, because it is natural and normal for people to either desire them, or to have health problems with them), by criminalising guns you limit the victims (generally) to criminals, because only criminals (generally) want them (when criminalised). You can see this in Australia, handguns are rampant in Southwest Sydney, but unless you are a Lebanese Muslim or an outlaw motorcycle gang member (in which case you are very likely to get shot), you are more likely to be eaten by a shark on dry land than get shot.

 

[etriker]

I am sorry the teachers that died did not have a gun and know how to use it because they died trying to save the kids and did not have the power to do so.

The kids had no one that could protect them from the crazy person with guns that walked right in the door.

You are so right E-Triker, that would explain why out of all the mass shootings that have occured in US states with insanely permissive gun laws (eg Texas, where I studied law for a year), out of all the mass shootings there have been all those countless examples of a vigalente returning fire with his hip holstered piece and ending the slaughter Western style.... Because that happens all the time right? In fact it is shameful how the blood lies on the hands of the gun control nuts, for all the massacres that were stopped or limited by vigilantes who stone cold popped those nuts right?

So putting aside Liquor store/convenience store/gas station stick ups where the shop guy shot dead the robbers (because almost all those are just cases caused by drug prohibition - very few people rob liquor stores for food money, they do it for illegal drugs), so putting those aside, let us now list all the massacres that were stopped by heroic gun carrying citizens in the US.........

Let us do it now........

None.....

(and let us put it in a time context)..... ever.......

WOO HOOO!

I stand to be corrected, but please post me one example of a whacko with a gun in the US who was stopped on a murder spree by a citizen (ie non-cop/army etc.) with a gun..... I wait with baited breath.....

I loved the posts of Thuds and Jeremy's above, Thuds post is why I read ES Biker Bar, because it challenges my preconcieved ideas and views, and it does this by being reasoned, measured, and hence enlightening for me. I learned something from Thuds post, because it was not invective or dogma, it was really well thought out and validly argued.

I personally think that certain types of guns should be controlled (eg semi-autos and handguns), because unlike drugs (which should be legalised, because it is natural and normal for people to either desire them, or to have health problems with them), by criminalising guns you limit the victims (generally) to criminals, because only criminals (generally) want them (when criminalised). You can see this in Australia, handguns are rampant in Southwest Sydney, but unless you are a Lebanese Muslim or an outlaw motorcycle gang member (in which case you are very likely to get shot), you are more likely to be eaten by a shark on dry land than get shot.

I guess the one just the other day was stopped by a person with a gun.

All the sudden he got heroic and killed the shooter before he killed anymore children ?

There were hundreds of kids at that school ?

 

[Philistine]

I guess the one just the other day was stopped by a person with a gun.

All the sudden he got heroic and killed the shooter before he killed anymore children ?

There were hundreds of kids at that school ?

?????

I was looking for the winking or smiling emoticon.... were you being sarcastic in your original post or the second one?

Sorry if I am being naive (I really am serious, sorry if I am missing the tongue in the cheek), but I genuinely have had to sit through conversations with total f&cking brainless idiots in the US who try to argue that allowing guns can stop mass shootings, because the citizens can end the slaughter that way. This is despite it never ever happening ever in recorded US history, despite huge massacres occurring in US states that allow openly hip holstered weapons.

Sorry if I missed the joke, I thought you were being serious....

 

[etriker]

There is an armed guard at the local jewelry store.

Armed guards to protect the money and jewels and such.

Why not protect our children at school ?

All the crazy people and guns in our country. And they can walk into a school with guns and no one is there that can protect the children ? ? ?

 

[Philistine]

There is an armed guard at the local jewelry store.

Armed guards to protect the money and jewels and such.

Why not protect our children at school ?

All the crazy people and guns in our country. And they can walk into a school and no one is there that can protect them ? ? ?

I am so not falling for your baiting, you are surely not this stupid. It is 3.48am where I am, and my sleeplessness needs some garage tonic, not the debate with the troll....

We have armed guards on "jewelry" stores because they are legitimate targets for armed attack (ie they contain liquid assets of high value), and also because merely having a guard on the store lowers insurance costs. Saying we should arm teachers because people might otherwise choose to shoot children in the school makes as much sense as saying that I should make sure I always shit in the dark in public toilets in case some sick f&cker has put a webcam into the bogger lest I be filmed and put on the interwebs. It has happened many, many, many times, and in fact there are commercial websites that I have seen selling that shit.... but I carelessly bare my filthy choccy star everytime I snap off a coil in a public shitter.

I presume you have been trolling me Etriker, and I say salute to you sir, if you haven't been trolling me, you are f*cking retarded - deadset.

 

[neptronix]

There is an armed guard at the local jewelry store.

Armed guards to protect the money and jewels and such.

Why not protect our children at school ?

All the crazy people and guns in our country. And they can walk into a school and no one is there that can protect them ? ? ?

Because a business will protect itself out of self interest. A person will, as well. Government does not have the same level of motive.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4082066...ds-school-bus-has-no-seat-belts/#.UM38sIM0WSo

Here's a pretty good example :lol:
If you want your kids well protected, and better yet, well educated.. a government school is not the place to send them, that's for sure.

 

[etriker]

Philistine,

So you are against guarding the children from harm while at school ?

Why ? If they are forced to go there then they should be safe from someone walking in the door and shooting them.

Surely you trust the teachers ?

It is way to late to get rid of all the guns. The idea that they can be outlawed and that will change anything is the crazy idea to me.

 

[etriker]

There is an armed guard at the local jewelry store.

Armed guards to protect the money and jewels and such.

Why not protect our children at school ?

All the crazy people and guns in our country. And they can walk into a school and no one is there that can protect them ? ? ?

Because a business will protect itself out of self interest. A person will, as well. Government does not have the same level of motive.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4082066...ds-school-bus-has-no-seat-belts/#.UM38sIM0WSo

Here's a pretty good example :lol:
If you want your kids well protected, and better yet, well educated.. a government school is not the place to send them, that's for sure.

That is for sure !

 

[etriker]

There is an armed guard at the local jewelry store.

Armed guards to protect the money and jewels and such.

Why not protect our children at school ?

All the crazy people and guns in our country. And they can walk into a school and no one is there that can protect them ? ? ?

I am so not falling for your baiting, you are surely not this stupid. It is 3.48am where I am, and my sleeplessness needs some garage tonic, not the debate with the troll....

We have armed guards on "jewelry" stores because they are legitimate targets for armed attack (ie they contain liquid assets of high value), and also because merely having a guard on the store lowers insurance costs. Saying we should arm teachers because people might otherwise choose to shoot children in the school makes as much sense as saying that I should make sure I always shit in the dark in public toilets in case some sick f&cker has put a webcam into the bogger lest I be filmed and put on the interwebs. It has happened many, many, many times, and in fact there are commercial websites that I have seen selling that shit.... but I carelessly bare my filthy choccy star everytime I snap off a coil in a public shitter.

I presume you have been trolling me Etriker, and I say salute to you sir, if you haven't been trolling me, you are f*cking retarded - deadset.

I am both sir ! :?

Fair Warning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0WDFanLlgg

 

[Thud]

Philistine,
Thank you for the compliment. I apreciate the aknowledgment from a skilled word smith with some very acute vision in regard to the human condition.

On-topic:
Jonseg,
Beleive it or not, this is a recuring topic at local shooting ranges every weekend. How do legitimate fire arm enthusisest get criminals & madmen to stop sullying their reputation? The path of least resitance is to fall to the Bill of rights & the constitution, I wish it were so simple. Times have definatly changed & that is an increadbly weak argument.

In my circle of friends I am considerd the left wing extreamest.(in this age, there are no centrists sadly) I see no problem with submitting to a "standard" to qualify for gun ownership. Even if simple civil infraction were a determinig factor.....& once qualified, I see no reason for me to be limited from owning anything. I would perfer anyone shooting a fully automatic wepon was doing so on an approved range & is qualifed to do so. there is actually a tourest industry in some areas where you can go shoot machine guns for fun...After bachalor parties, Europeans & Auzzie's on holidy are the main consumers of the service.

The reality of guns as personal protechtion is a fanticy at best. Ask any cop. I can read about thwarted home invasions in the NRA publications.....but they are so far & few between it doesn't add an ounce of credibility for the masses. So I can't say my guns are for home defense....my dogs are my 1st line of defence....my guns are for pleasure. I do hunt for food, but even that in the big picture is for pleasure, since i do 95% of my hunting with archery equipment.

In my circle of friends the are a few police officers in various ranks....My detective buddy was never more relived to accept a promotion as he now had a mostly desk job & didn't have the daily stress of having that side arm defining his pressance in any situation. The idea of taking another human life is haunting to the few police men I know personaly.

I promise, I'll try & continue to keep from shooting anybody...even if by accident.
(id incert a smily here but given last fridays events & general feel of this thread, i'll refrain in sobriety)

oop's, I see the inevitable thread de-evolution has begun......(during my weak spell checking) counting the days till this lands in the bar or is locked...+1 for endless sphere since I see our old friend Safe (aka Saftey, a social misfit & misunderstood motor theroy troll) has been wipped away from another site with no remnates of his exsitance.....
boo censorship.
cary on.

 

[etriker]

I am kinda counting on a couple of warning shots and my barking dogs.

You could do that with blanks if you are scared of real bullets.

People are scared of guns.

My wife and I are old now.

Back in the day I could have just stood back and let her kick ass but we got old and she is disabled now.

And I am her man and it is my job to protect her and I am old too.

Sometimes crime targets older people.

 

[Jonathan in Hiram]

The median income in constant dollars in the US has been flat since about 1972, meanwhile the cost of everything except electronic doodads has increased dramatically. At the same time corporate profits are at an all time high.

The upshot of this is that economic inequality is at the highest point in the US since the Gilded Age, the six Walmart heirs control more wealth than the bottom 42% of Americans. Social mobility in America is among the lowest of all developed nations while our national psyche still is locked in the Horatio Alger myth that anyone can become wealthy if they just try hard enough.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/07/walmart-heirs-waltons-wealth-income-inequality

I was talking with an elderly relative a while back who lived through the Depression as a young woman, they were literally dirt poor at that time but as she told me they didn't know they were poor because everyone else was poor too. It's one thing to be poor in a society where pretty much everyone is poor and it's entirely another to be poor in a society in which most people appear to be well off.

A fish rots from the head down and our society in the US is rotting from the top, vast crimes have been committed by people at the very top of the economic and social pyramid and nothing at all has been done about it while the USA has its prisons packed with the highest rate of incarceration in the world for the economically disadvantaged. The US has ~5% of the world's population and fully 25% of the prisoners in the world.

We actually had a scandal a few years ago where juvenile court judges were caught taking payoffs from private prison companies to send as many juvenile offenders to prison as possible.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/us/13judge.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Private, for profit prisons, wrap your head around that if you can.

In America for the most part if you lose your job you lose your health insurance and it is amazingly expensive ($1000 a month or more) to get individual policy that will only partially cover you for catastrophic things like cancer or heart attack. Our recent "health care reform" bill was really only a health insurance scam that will marginally increase access for poorer Americans to health care while mandating that we buy medical insurance from the same companies that are largely responsible for the problems in the first place.

Put it together, record income inequality, jammed prisons that are operated for profit, no health care for a large number of Americans, crimes at the top of society going unpunished and indeed most of the time not even investigated and you have a recipe for anger and violence. There are about as many guns as people in this country and a lot of very angry people, many of whom have legitimate reasons to be angry. I could pick up an illegal gun tonight off Craigslist if I wanted one, guns aren't supposed to be advertised on Craigslist but there are any number of circumlocutions people use to get around that fig leaf of a policy (home defense items, things that go bang and on and on).

We also have the phenomenon of talk radio which is largely designed to make people angry, anger is addictive and the talk radio jocks have figured out if they can keep stoking that anger they can keep people tuning in. It really doesn't matter if you agree with the host or disagree, things are presented in such a manner on many of those shows that if you agree with the host you're going to be angry and if you disagree you're going to even more pissed off. I figured this out about fifteen years ago when I found myself shouting at my car radio on a regular basis at which point I stopped listening.

Americans have been deliberately set one against the other by propaganda for financial profit and political power. We even have a "news" network that took a case all the way to the Supreme Court in order to defend their right to knowingly and deliberately lie in their news broadcasts, they won of course.

http://www.philly2philly.com/politics_community/politics_community_articles/2009/6/29/4854/fox_news_wins_lawsuit_misinform_public

I could go on nearly endlessly in this vein but perhaps this might give you some slight perspective into what's driving the anger and violence among Americans.

But where is that strain in modern life, and why should it be greater in the US than anywhere else in the Western World?

Many European countries have been suffering a much deeper recession that the US, with higher levels of unemployment, property prices crashing and in a lot of European countries there is the added pressure of massively greater population density than in the US.

There has to be something deeper in the collective US psyche that creates this fundamentalist view that killing people is, in effect, acceptable, as it is just a part of the US cultural heritage.

 

[neptronix]

The reality of guns as personal protechtion is a fanticy at best. Ask any cop. I can read about thwarted home invasions in the NRA publications.....but they are so far & few between it doesn't add an ounce of credibility for the masses. So I can't say my guns are for home defense....my dogs are my 1st line of defence....my guns are for pleasure. I do hunt for food, but even that in the big picture is for pleasure, since i do 95% of my hunting with archery equipment.

I have to dispute what you just said with this very recent counterexample:

[youtube]iD52IxplEoM[/youtube]

I knew the mall shooting in Oregon was short lived for a reason, but the media seemed to have left that point out in all the major reports. Only one local news org put this out. The death toll was only 2 in this instance. Many people in the mall that day can thank this man for their lives, but i doubt they will.

Many people are calling for gun regulations, but the Columbine shooters got their hands on weapons by having friends buy them for them. This recent school shooter got into his mom's gun cabinet. The teachers on the other hand, cannot legally bring guns into the school to protect themselves. So - only the outlaws in these shooting situations have guns. I don't think it should work that way.

 

[neptronix]

http://www.examiner.com/article/ana...r-newport-school-shooting?no_cache=1355682457

Wow, here is a whopper of a counterexample as well.

http://freedomoutpost.com/2012/07/the-aurora-shooting-you-didnt-hear-about-in-the-media/

Kiarron Parker opened fire in a church parking lot in Aurora, Colorado. The shooter killed 1 person before being shot and killed by a member of the congregation who was carrying concealed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

Here's another one where armed people stopped a massive rampage rather quickly.

The shooting was cited by John Lott[16] and others[17] as an example of the media's bias against guns, describing how the use of a firearm in a defensive role was not reported in most news stories of the event.[18]

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OthWr/principal&gun.htm

10/1/1997 - Luke Woodham put on a trench coat to conceal a hunting rifle and entered Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi. He killed 3 students before vice principal Joel Myrick apprehended him with a Colt .45 without firing.

Let me guess - you've not heard of any of these? big surprise. I didn't either.

 

[Thud]

Nep,
Actualy,yes these are all documente & published in the monthly NRA magazines.

After watching that clip 3 times, the counter point is subjective at best. I can only hope the gun man saw him & put his last shot into himself......but the fact the guy showed proper restraint through (I assume) training is good news. I have never had a human in my sights, so I have no comprehension of what the emotional toll of the situation could impose....(in my mind, its horror)
In a made for tv movie the trigger is pulled, the bad guy goes down & life goes on without any damage.......the reality is: I know a handfull of guy's who have shot/killed a deer & were so revulsed at the reality of it, walked away from hunting & firearms completly....some are even Vegans now. It has to be an order of magnatude more intense with a human involved.

piont in case:
In every case you linked to, it was not the victoms of the act that defended thenselves. It was an armed witness to the act, in a position to re-act in the fasion they ultimatly did.
Not trying to be contrarian, just looking at it frankly & personaly. I can't delude myself thinking if I carry a wepon, I'll be safer. I Just don't belive I will.

In a criminal act, typicly, the perpitrator has the drop on you & you will not have the space or presence of mind to be a hero. Thus my having a gun in public has a neglegable impact on my personal saftey.
However, the links you posted are the #1 reason I have no objection to (in fact advocate) the right to cary laws in my state & accross the country.

Does any one on this board share my experiance with gun culture in america?
The last time we had a gun check in our local chairty poker room..... 8 indaviduals showed their "cary guns"....( I know of at least 4 other firearms in the room that maintained anonimity to those who don't know them)

Does it really seem that insane? to carry a gun? in a civilised & enlightend scociety?

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Nep,
Actualy,yes these are all documente & published in the monthly NRA magazines.

After watching that clip 3 times, the counter point is subjective at best. I can only hope the gun man saw him & put his last shot into himself......but the fact the guy showed proper restraint through (I assume) training is good news. I have never had a human in my sights, so I have no comprehension of what the emotional toll of the situation could impose....(in my mind, its horror)
In a made for tv movie the trigger is pulled, the bad guy goes down & life goes on without any damage.......the reality is: I know a handfull of guy's who have shot/killed a deer & were so revulsed at the reality of it, walked away from hunting & firearms completly....some are even Vegans now. It has to be an order of magnatude more intense with a human involved.

piont in case:
In every case you linked to, it was not the victoms of the act that defended thenselves. It was an armed witness to the act, in a position to re-act in the fasion they ultimatly did.
Not trying to be contrarian, just looking at it frankly & personaly. I can't delude myself thinking if I carry a wepon, I'll be safer. I Just don't belive I will.

In a criminal act, typicly, the perpitrator has the drop on you & you will not have the space or presence of mind to be a hero. Thus my having a gun in public has a neglegable impact on my personal saftey.
However, the links you posted are the #1 reason I have no objection to (in fact advocate) the right to cary laws in my state & accross the country.

Does any one on this board share my experiance with gun culture in america?
The last time we had a gun check in our local chairty poker room..... 8 indaviduals showed their "cary guns"....( I know of at least 4 other firearms in the room that maintained anonimity to those who don't know them)

Does it really seem that insane? to carry a gun? in a civilised & enlightend scociety?

Thud,

I also cannot believe the way US crime drama shows people killing and having no significant after effect on their psyche. I spent several years working as an expert witness in a double manslaughter case a few years ago. The accused was a volunteer who was alleged to have been negligent, There was an accident in which his friend and another died, under very traumatic circumstances. The accused was a retired firefighter, with commendations, a devoted Christian and known as the sort of chap that would help anyone out. Following the charges his mental health declined to the point where he was admitted to hospital here under our Mental Health Act. He was suicidal, and even now, years later, when he knows he was not to blame he will just burst into tears for no reason.

Another friend was involved in an accidental shooting when he was in the army, serving in Northern Ireland during the Troubles. He came under hostile fire when at a checkpoint, returned fire and in the cross fire an innocent teenager was killed by a round from his weapon. He too has never been the same since, the impact on his personal life was just devastating, and continues to be 20 years later.

Perhaps people get hardened to death at their own hand, but based on my experience I'd say that's probably the exception rather than the rule.

 

[jonescg]

I know gun control is a very thorny issue in America, but I don't think we should stop the conversation. Maybe one day America will reach an enlightened state where one doesn't need to feel safe with guns around. I also hope that America and many other nations around the world drop the death penalty, but that's another thread.

Something to remember in the whole gun control debate, particularly here in Australia, was that by and large we the gun owners were happy to relinquish our now-illegal weapons. Both sides of politics supported the measures. Only the country party who are in a coalition with the conservatives had their doubts, and a few noisy nutters made some crazy statements, but the electorate was convinced it was a good move.

The Howard government went on to win three more elections.

Just to reiterate, the government didn't just take our guns, we happily surrendered them. It was a very sober process. But the difference, as many have pointed out already, is the culture. Australia has never felt the need for armed protection from 'bad guys'. In fact remaining unarmed is so completely normal, that anyone who isn't a security guard or cop and is wielding a concealable firearm is clearly up to no good.

We don't feel safe when someone, anyone, has a gun in their possession in public. The safest place for them is locked in the cabinet until the next hunting trip.

 

[fizzit]

Neptronix, those are some interesting anecdotes, but the fact is, carrying a gun does not protect you. If you carry a gun, you are 4.5 times more likely to be shot during an assault.
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/10/04/carry-a-gun-you-get-shot-more/

 

[Philistine]

I pretty much get all my news and current affairs from Freedom Outpost.

 

[salty9]

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

The supremes could interpret this literally and require gun owners to join the National Guard.

 

[neptronix]

Neptronix, those are some interesting anecdotes, but the fact is, carrying a gun does not protect you. If you carry a gun, you are 4.5 times more likely to be shot during an assault.
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/10/04/carry-a-gun-you-get-shot-more/

Is there a way to read the study? All i see is a short analysis of it.

I'm wondering if the mass majority of the people shot were gang members, drug addicts, drug dealers, or other people in the outskirts of society who have to provide their own protection because the law will not. These people are typically armed and involved in gun violence very often. These people are also often carrying guns illegally too, and aren't known for their good disposition.

Very easy to spin things and leave data out.
The suggestion from that article:

There are two obvious, opposite recommendations that come to mind: 1) Stop carrying a gun; or 2) Add body armor.

I know i'm biased here but i think this one should be taken with a grain of salt, for sure.

 

[Dauntless]

The reason you don't here these interventions making big news is because they prevent major news stories. 2 people shot instead of 15 makes it much more routine; news coverage demands sensationalism. Just let someone step in with another gun and hit an innocent bystander, THEN it'll be headlines.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

In fact remaining unarmed is so completely normal, that anyone who isn't a security guard or cop and is wielding a concealable firearm is clearly up to no good.

We don't feel safe when someone, anyone, has a gun in their possession in public. The safest place for them is locked in the cabinet until the next hunting trip.

The same is true here. Seeing guns here is rare, unless you are at an airport or maybe a sensitive location in a big city. If you watch people in an airport here you can see them put space between themselves and the armed guards that walk around. Even when it's crowded a magic space opens up around the guards as people subconsciously get themselves as far away from their guns as possible.

Here you can only own a gun with a licence and that licence is only issued after two responsible members of society have signed to say they know you to be a responsible person and that they've known you for a minimum period of time. You also have to have a good reason for owning a gun and have to prove that. Finally, all guns have to be locked in secure cabinets, with the ammo locked in a separate secure cabinet. These cabinets are subject to random inspection by the police, usually about once a year.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The reason you don't here these interventions making big news is because they prevent major news stories. 2 people shot instead of 15 makes it much more routine; news coverage demands sensationalism. Just let someone step in with another gun and hit an innocent bystander, THEN it'll be headlines.

That's crazy. Here ONE person getting shot makes the national news. Two getting shot at the same time would make headlines on every news channel, probably with an in-depth story, for days.

We had a sad case a few years ago where one innocent young boy was shot and killed. The story was in the national news for weeks, with follow up stories from the inquest, the arrest of the suspects, the trial etc.

 

[amberwolf]

If you wanted to know about individuals being shot here in the USA, I doubt you would even see a blip in the papers or the tv news, but would rather have to go directly to the police or hospitals and browse their reports.

I've seen and heard evidence of shootings about half a mile south of my house a number of times, but there's never even any reports in the news of any events down there. I suspect there are probably also stabbings and other murders or attempted murders, from drug or gang activity, but I don't hear those or see shell casings laying around, and bullet holes, and sometimes the detritus ambulance crews occasionally leave behind (sometimes including bloody sponges or bandages).

FWIW, it wouldnt' make a whit of difference what the gun laws were as to whether these things would happen--they'd get the guns and use them against each other whether it was legal or not.

I'd personally rather have the option to be able to purchase a gun to defend myself with if things ever got bad enough for that, than to be left with only being able to do it illegally. (not that I have or could properly use a gun at the moment).