Denver commuter e-bike
- Thread starter Toshi
- Start date
Toshi
10 kW
The Stig said:Time for that eCargo bike eh?
Although there probably is no time for anything, not even ES, just sleep
My work schedule has been very light/flexible since January or so, so it all works out overall. Couldn't have picked a better time to have the kid, actually.
I finished building this up today, my decidedly non-motorized "Seattle bike", for hard-core trail riding around Seattle rather than hard-core commuting purposes:
Details here for the curious: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16951&p=3893632&viewfull=1#post3893632
As I haven't ridden the e-bike in a few weeks after forsaking Long Island bike commuting, I'm planning on taking the e-bike out for a spin on Saturday afternoon. The wife will walk the baby in a stroller while I ride many times more distance out and back on a paved bike path, meeting up at the car.
I leave the battery on the charger all the time. I know it's better for the battery to sit at 25 or 50% SOC, but given that it self discharges to a small but non-negligible degree and I know personally the pain that is reviving a "dead"/0% SOC battery I figure it's the lesser evil to leave it plugged in.
Toshi
10 kW
Toshi said:
In case anyone's interested in my ongoing vehicle choice internal debate, the current leading proposition in my mind is the follows:
1) Add a RAV4 EV to our stable as early in calendar year 2014 as we can afford it. (Has to be 2014 for tax purposes, as I'll have a low tax burden this year for multiple reasons.)
2) Subsequently, and possibly very soon after that depending on our finances, trade in or independently sell the Prius and buy me an SUV.
This SUV would be more or less dedicated to biking, skiing, ORV trail-running, and family road trip duty. I'd commute in the Acura or by bike/e-bike, depending on where we end up, and my wife would tool around with the kid (+ possible future other kids) in the RAV4 EV.
In other words, this SUV wouldn't rack up that many miles but would see some 4x4 trails, rough roads, and lots of snow with any luck.
Given this usage I'd want something with low range 4x4 and body on frame construction rather than a car-based model. Since it would cart around the whole family on road trips it'd have to be safe and reliable (so no hoopties or anything from the pre-side airbag era, e.g. 1999 Cherokees). Since it would have to accommodate my long-torso/giant-head frame in the front seat it has to have ample front headroom. Finally, since I have hangups with dark, claustrophobic vehicles, it'd have to have lots of glass area, too.
The vehicles that are atop my list after some test driving and a lot of reading are the 2007-2009 Lexus GX 470 and the 2006-2007 Lexus LX 470/Toyota Land Cruiser. (Before anyone comments on gas mileage, again note that this wouldn't be a daily driver.) I've driven the newer generation of Land Cruiser and an older-but-same-generation GX, but will get a chance to drive a 2008 GX and a 2006 LX this upcoming Saturday. I love wasting dealers' time…
8)
2007 GX 470
2006 Land Cruiser
Toshi
10 kW
Another month, another update in plans:
1) The EV choice-pendulum has swung back to the LEAF side.
There are way too many anecdotes about RAV4 EV failures already, even in the 6 months or so they've been out. Having such an issue with the vehicle marooned in Seattle would be a non-starter. There are 9 owners in this thread who have had their vehicles basically crap out until a Tesla tech at the dealer could resuscitate it:
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=338
This flip-flop back to the LEAF camp means in turn that the plan has switched again from buying (RAV4 EV deals were all for purchased vehicles) to leasing (don't want to buy a non-active thermal management EV). Leasing, in turn, means I don't need to wait until calendar 2014 to ensure my tax liability is sufficiently high, so the trigger on a LEAF could be pulled as soon as I pay off lingering (0%, mind you) consumer debt and the upcoming move's expenses. This could be as early as October or November, perhaps!
2) I think I've figured out how I, an amateur with permission from the homeowner (my mother in law), could wire up an external 240V 50A circuit for EVSE use.
To this circuit I plan on hard-wiring a Leviton EVB40 40A EVSE, which would be located on the exterior wall of the garage. I read much about wiring and conduit the past day or two, processed this information, and came up with the following plan that seems to pass muster from those who know more about electrical code-stuff than I do:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=13043
The wiring plan in a nutshell:
3) The Prius-replacing SUV (post-LEAF-for-wife) choice is now settled, too.
In the past month or two I've test driven a 2003 and a 2008 Lexus GX 470 and a 2006 Lexus LX 470. I liked the later GX just fine but the LX, and by extension the Toyota Land Cruiser, felt even more right. I'd go for the Land Cruiser over the LX since it looks much less gaudy and carries less social stigma. In 2006-2007 trim the LC is essentially mechanically identical to the LX, too, what with (optional starting in 2006 but apparently ubiquitous) Active Variable Suspension and Active Height Control.
Mmm Land Cruiser:
'Tis a much saner choice than, say, a CNG-powered dually crew cab pickup, eh?
1) The EV choice-pendulum has swung back to the LEAF side.
There are way too many anecdotes about RAV4 EV failures already, even in the 6 months or so they've been out. Having such an issue with the vehicle marooned in Seattle would be a non-starter. There are 9 owners in this thread who have had their vehicles basically crap out until a Tesla tech at the dealer could resuscitate it:
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=338
This flip-flop back to the LEAF camp means in turn that the plan has switched again from buying (RAV4 EV deals were all for purchased vehicles) to leasing (don't want to buy a non-active thermal management EV). Leasing, in turn, means I don't need to wait until calendar 2014 to ensure my tax liability is sufficiently high, so the trigger on a LEAF could be pulled as soon as I pay off lingering (0%, mind you) consumer debt and the upcoming move's expenses. This could be as early as October or November, perhaps!
2) I think I've figured out how I, an amateur with permission from the homeowner (my mother in law), could wire up an external 240V 50A circuit for EVSE use.
To this circuit I plan on hard-wiring a Leviton EVB40 40A EVSE, which would be located on the exterior wall of the garage. I read much about wiring and conduit the past day or two, processed this information, and came up with the following plan that seems to pass muster from those who know more about electrical code-stuff than I do:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=13043
The wiring plan in a nutshell:
3) The Prius-replacing SUV (post-LEAF-for-wife) choice is now settled, too.
In the past month or two I've test driven a 2003 and a 2008 Lexus GX 470 and a 2006 Lexus LX 470. I liked the later GX just fine but the LX, and by extension the Toyota Land Cruiser, felt even more right. I'd go for the Land Cruiser over the LX since it looks much less gaudy and carries less social stigma. In 2006-2007 trim the LC is essentially mechanically identical to the LX, too, what with (optional starting in 2006 but apparently ubiquitous) Active Variable Suspension and Active Height Control.
Mmm Land Cruiser:
'Tis a much saner choice than, say, a CNG-powered dually crew cab pickup, eh?
Toshi
10 kW
Try August 10:Toshi said:
We brought it home today. VPP pricing by virtue of my affiliation with the state university here, 2 year lease, SL + Premium so has all the goodies.
oatnet
1 MW
Congrats on your Leaf, Toshi!
-JD
-JD
dnmun
1 PW
i think the on board charger is 6kW so you could get away with using 30A breaker and 10AWG solid plus ground for the service cable to the charger spot. you may wanna see about hacking your own arduino based charger port also to avoid the hassles with the city inspectors. that is my preferred option. i have four spots on my driveway apron which can carry up to 40-50A at each spot or total of 60A on one of the three and 40A on the other.
i hate inspectors.
i hate inspectors.
Toshi
10 kW
We're going to see if we can live with just 120V charging for the time being, since we drive very little and I have $100 in Blink credit that expires at the end of this year. So far it hasn't been an issue, with our longest daily trip having been just around 25 miles total.
Toshi
10 kW
Oh, in other news: My 9C 2806 has rusted internally so badly that it's now basically seized up. Thank you, Seattle weather! There probably were also other contributing factors in the failure, namely my tendency to ride at high speeds (27-30 mph cruise commonly seen), an 8% grade, fairly long hill at the end of my commute home, my weight (221 lbs flat as of this morning), and the combination of bumpy roads + no suspension.
My parents have no idea where my old-build Crystalyte 407 front wheel is living so I think I'll revert to either a 100% bus (x 2) commute or a different bus x 2 commute with the last 2 miles to home pedaled in the conventional manner on my 29er mountain bike. Given that I don't really enjoy competing with cars for lane space and that there's no great bike route through downtown I won't cry too much about being forced onto the bus. It may add 20 or 30 minutes to the evening commute (morning commute is about on par with riding) but it's veg time…
My parents have no idea where my old-build Crystalyte 407 front wheel is living so I think I'll revert to either a 100% bus (x 2) commute or a different bus x 2 commute with the last 2 miles to home pedaled in the conventional manner on my 29er mountain bike. Given that I don't really enjoy competing with cars for lane space and that there's no great bike route through downtown I won't cry too much about being forced onto the bus. It may add 20 or 30 minutes to the evening commute (morning commute is about on par with riding) but it's veg time…
Kingfish
100 MW
There is only one thread for you my friend... RUST: DIY Hub Motor Repair & RestorationToshi said:
Just do it! KF :wink:
Toshi said:
I saw pictures of someone else having rust problems with the 9C.
http://www.electricbike.com/9c/
I prevented that from happening to my 9c wheel by applying a silicone conformal coating to the stator. Luckily, it's pretty dry around here and I make a habit of avoiding riding in the rain, so I didn't have rust problems already when I took apart to upgrade the wheel.
Kingfish said:
Did the magnets themselves corrode? That's curious, because I thought most neodymium magnets used a non-ferromagnetic coating of some sort. (Nickel?)
Just wondering if I should apply conformal coating to the magnets while they're still exposed. I'm in the midst of upgrading my wheel to reliable status.
Kingfish
100 MW
swbluto said:I saw pictures of someone else having rust problems with the 9C.
>>>>http://www.electricbike.com/9c/
I prevented that from happening to my 9c wheel by applying a silicone conformal coating to the stator. Luckily, it's pretty dry around here and I make a habit of avoiding riding in the rain, so I didn't have rust problems already when I took apart to upgrade the wheel.
I also wrote that article :wink:
The basic unavoidable issue is that there is no equilibrium within a "sealed" hub motor, only disparity. And when the motor gets warm - pressure builds and shall eventually escape if driven long enough. When the motor cools - the reverse occurs. When I took mine apart for the first time there was evidence of up to 1/4 inch of water inside.
I decided it was pointless to order a new set of hubs because it would not fix the inherit design flaws. Regardless of manufacturer - all motors will suffer the same fate if they are:
- Not properly vented to avoid pressure differentials than can exacerbate the heat + moisture collection
- Not properly sealed from environmental issues that cause rust ~ e.g. standard industrial varnish coating as you would normally find on Alternators and Starters in Western Civilization
It's been 14 months. I can say for certain that my range has improved about 10% due to reduced bearing friction (with improved fairing + cabling). I can coast (freewheel) faster downhill than a roady in full tuck; I have to use my brakes to keep distance, and I have the parasitic losses of 2WD!
This is the way to go. Fix the existing problem. Improve the motor. Be happy! 8)
Wheels turning, KF
Toshi
10 kW
I'm going to dump some CLR inside and see if at helps. I already hit the rotor with the rotary tool to little effect. It's a rusty, soupy mess as KF illustrated.
I did drill some 1/2" holes in the covers to allow for future venting, should I ever revive this particular hub motor.
I did drill some 1/2" holes in the covers to allow for future venting, should I ever revive this particular hub motor.
Kingfish
100 MW
What's happened is that the rust came from the stator and now that rust is shorting out the motor's effectiveness. I tried vinegar - which killed the rust but it came right back immediately upon drying. That where the Rust-Mort comes in: It convents the rust into Iron Phosphate where it can be removed. This is a project best done outside in warm weather with a respirator and far from open windows.
It's ok to remove the lion's share of rust with vinegary water just to get to the surface, but don't waste a lot of time there. Apply the Rust-Mort in thin, very thin, the thinnest of coats and allow to dry. Crusty parts can be scrubbed away lightly with a bristle brush or old stiff toothbrush. Keep at it until all the rust is converted. Check your electronics and wiring around the Halls and phase. Make sure copper corrosion is eliminated.
The Liquid Tape worked well to seal some surfaces. The varnish will eat into vinyl and remain sticky, so remove any vinyl-coated wires and cables. I used two coats of varnish; don't go thick: The distance between the rotor and stator is about 1 mm and every coat you add eats into that space.
I sure do wish there was a 3rd-party shop that could do this rework cos it's a royal PITA without the right setup, and a person could make a tidy sum upgrading these motors for the PNW.
Wish I could help you more
...hey wait... Toshi - I just checked my stash, and I have more than 66% left of the Rust-Mort and the Varnish! Happy to bequeath my kit to you.
KF of Redmond
It's ok to remove the lion's share of rust with vinegary water just to get to the surface, but don't waste a lot of time there. Apply the Rust-Mort in thin, very thin, the thinnest of coats and allow to dry. Crusty parts can be scrubbed away lightly with a bristle brush or old stiff toothbrush. Keep at it until all the rust is converted. Check your electronics and wiring around the Halls and phase. Make sure copper corrosion is eliminated.
The Liquid Tape worked well to seal some surfaces. The varnish will eat into vinyl and remain sticky, so remove any vinyl-coated wires and cables. I used two coats of varnish; don't go thick: The distance between the rotor and stator is about 1 mm and every coat you add eats into that space.
I sure do wish there was a 3rd-party shop that could do this rework cos it's a royal PITA without the right setup, and a person could make a tidy sum upgrading these motors for the PNW.
Wish I could help you more
...hey wait... Toshi - I just checked my stash, and I have more than 66% left of the Rust-Mort and the Varnish! Happy to bequeath my kit to you.
KF of Redmond
Toshi
10 kW
I may take you up on that. Telling me how to pull the covers off completely and remove the rotor would be the most helpful initially, though: I unscrewed and pried loose the covers and can displace the innards about 3/4 width out temporarily. I'm guessing the bearings in the covers have to be popped out?
In the meantime my commute is about the same if I catch both buses just right, but can be twice as long if I'm detained late at work and end up out of KC Metro's assumed commute hours... At least it's a clean commute, with one leg on an articulated diesel-electric hybrid bus and the other on an articulated electric trolley with a pantograph.
In the meantime my commute is about the same if I catch both buses just right, but can be twice as long if I'm detained late at work and end up out of KC Metro's assumed commute hours... At least it's a clean commute, with one leg on an articulated diesel-electric hybrid bus and the other on an articulated electric trolley with a pantograph.
Kingfish
100 MW
You're still in Seattle, right - not Long Island?
I have a flywheel puller I can lend you, or you can buy one for about $25 at an auto supply. You'll need one that is 7 inches long. I use a couple of 2x4 pieces of wood to hold the motor up so the axle isn't goofed up. It's pretty easy to do. Better to have the correct tools. I did it wrong the first time I cracked open a hub - and got scolded by dunmn
:lol:
You can order bearing from http://www.McMaster.com and use he same p/n given in the rust thread. A cheap bottle of vinegar will help cut the rust down to size.
PM me and we can discuss if you like
Best, KF
I have a flywheel puller I can lend you, or you can buy one for about $25 at an auto supply. You'll need one that is 7 inches long. I use a couple of 2x4 pieces of wood to hold the motor up so the axle isn't goofed up. It's pretty easy to do. Better to have the correct tools. I did it wrong the first time I cracked open a hub - and got scolded by dunmn
:lol: You can order bearing from http://www.McMaster.com and use he same p/n given in the rust thread. A cheap bottle of vinegar will help cut the rust down to size.
PM me and we can discuss if you like
Best, KF
Toshi
10 kW
Whoops, hadn't updated my profile, apparently. Yes, in Seattle for this academic year, then who knows?
Would this gear puller do the trick?
http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Grade-18203-8-Inch-Adjustable-combination/dp/B002O16UES/ref=sr_1_7?s=automotive&rps=1&ie=UTF8&qid=1376797877&sr=1-7&keywords=gear+puller
Or should I spring for a combo set? 8)
http://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-5702-Gear-Puller-4-Piece/dp/B000NPUKB6/ref=sr_1_5?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1376797877&sr=1-5&keywords=gear+puller
In your rust thread I recall you saying you had a machinist press fit the new bearings. I'm guessing I'd need to find a machinist to do the same? Does pulling the covers necessarily wreck the bearings? Mine didn't feel awful--the "crunch" is definitely coming from the rust and crap adjacent to the magnets, not from the bearings.
Would this gear puller do the trick?
http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Grade-18203-8-Inch-Adjustable-combination/dp/B002O16UES/ref=sr_1_7?s=automotive&rps=1&ie=UTF8&qid=1376797877&sr=1-7&keywords=gear+puller
Or should I spring for a combo set? 8)
http://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-5702-Gear-Puller-4-Piece/dp/B000NPUKB6/ref=sr_1_5?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1376797877&sr=1-5&keywords=gear+puller
In your rust thread I recall you saying you had a machinist press fit the new bearings. I'm guessing I'd need to find a machinist to do the same? Does pulling the covers necessarily wreck the bearings? Mine didn't feel awful--the "crunch" is definitely coming from the rust and crap adjacent to the magnets, not from the bearings.
Kingfish
100 MW
That first one looks fine. 8)
EDIT: Forgot to answer the bearings question: I had mine done by a Harley shop (which sent it out to their machinist). They did the hole drilling too - but it was a crappy job; I could have done better with a hand drill. For the bead blasting, that went to another machine shop; I just called around to find one local. The guy charged me $50 to do all four hub covers.
Personally I don't trust myself to press bearings without the proper equipment - meaning I'm in an apartment without a garage. You really need a stable platform and a press to do it right. Spend the money and get the best bearings. You'll be able to tell the difference side-by-side again the cheap Chinese version. The seals are less important now because the covers are vented, so all they do now is keep debris out. The seals can be fussy, so put them in last otherwise the spring might pop out - like it did with me.
~KF
EDIT: Forgot to answer the bearings question: I had mine done by a Harley shop (which sent it out to their machinist). They did the hole drilling too - but it was a crappy job; I could have done better with a hand drill. For the bead blasting, that went to another machine shop; I just called around to find one local. The guy charged me $50 to do all four hub covers.
Personally I don't trust myself to press bearings without the proper equipment - meaning I'm in an apartment without a garage. You really need a stable platform and a press to do it right. Spend the money and get the best bearings. You'll be able to tell the difference side-by-side again the cheap Chinese version. The seals are less important now because the covers are vented, so all they do now is keep debris out. The seals can be fussy, so put them in last otherwise the spring might pop out - like it did with me.
~KF
dnmun
1 PW
after your thread, i saw a gallon of metal prep at the home depot on the clearance shelf for $16.
you have to rinse the metal prep off after you use it to dissolve the rust and when it dries the surface is coated with phosphate and not oxide and the phosphate is a good base for the paint. there is no acid left since you rinsed it. that is what the body shop guys use. dry it in the sun for a few days. i suspect any enamel paint, even rattle can will seal the surface from more rust.
you may not have to replace the bearings. if they still have grease and you can turn the bearing without feeling any roughness it should work. you can invert the gear puller and use it as a press to push the bearing out. put a socket through the hole in the cover against the face of the bearing and screw the center tap against the socket where the 3/8" square is,
then to push the new one in again you can use a bolt on a big washer, through a socket of the same size as the outer race on the new bearing ,and run the bolt through to the other side of the side cover and put a big washer over there so there is a face to pull the bearing against.
you have to rinse the metal prep off after you use it to dissolve the rust and when it dries the surface is coated with phosphate and not oxide and the phosphate is a good base for the paint. there is no acid left since you rinsed it. that is what the body shop guys use. dry it in the sun for a few days. i suspect any enamel paint, even rattle can will seal the surface from more rust.
you may not have to replace the bearings. if they still have grease and you can turn the bearing without feeling any roughness it should work. you can invert the gear puller and use it as a press to push the bearing out. put a socket through the hole in the cover against the face of the bearing and screw the center tap against the socket where the 3/8" square is,
then to push the new one in again you can use a bolt on a big washer, through a socket of the same size as the outer race on the new bearing ,and run the bolt through to the other side of the side cover and put a big washer over there so there is a face to pull the bearing against.
Kingfish
100 MW
^ +1 Rust-Mort = Metal Prep; it uses Phosphoric Acid to create Iron Phosphate coating. That's what my body shop guy suggested; there was body shop supply depot a couple of blocks away from where I worked so it was very convenient. The Harley place was a little father walking distance -> all right there in Totem Lake on the auto-row side of 124th between I-405 & Willow Rd.
My bearings had issues; I know what a smooth bearing is supposed to feel like and decided to replace them on the spot; no question - they were not sealed as the part ID labeled them bottom rung, so I went for precision sealed bearings.
Coffee... <slurp> KF 8)
My bearings had issues; I know what a smooth bearing is supposed to feel like and decided to replace them on the spot; no question - they were not sealed as the part ID labeled them bottom rung, so I went for precision sealed bearings.
Coffee... <slurp> KF 8)
Kingfish said:
Same here, my original 9C bearings were pretty squeaky, then that gradually turned into a clunk, clunk, clunk sound and now I'm replacing them with reputable ABEC3 bearings - the difference in smoothness is highly noticeable. I only rode the motor for 300 miles and it developed those problems.
Problem I'm having is figuring out how to insert the bearings. An old trick someone recommended to me was to take a round socket head with the same size as the outer race, place it on the outer race and gently tap the bearing until it was into place. However, with a 35mm outer race diameter, it's proving difficult to find a socket head that big, lol. Wondering if taking a small wooden block and placing it flat against the bearing, covering the entire bearing, and tapping it with a hammer would produce the same effect?
Kingfish
100 MW
Your Worship :wink: - 35mm is close to the same diameter as the coat rack pole in your closet. It's almost identical to 1-3/8ths. Maybe if you had a 1-1/4 socket... or closed end of a combo wrench. And actually the bearings are different sizes depending on Left vs. Right. Be careful
~KF
~KF
Kingfish said:
They are? Hmmm.... my bearings have the markings "6202-rsc2p6" and "6202-rz". Looking up "6202-rs" and "6202-rz" seems to pop up the same size on google, 35x15x11, which is identical to 6202-2rs. What's the difference?
Now I'm tempted to pop out the bearings now and measure them, but I don't want to potentially screw up my wheel forever, lol.
Edit: Removed the bearings and measured them with the calipers. Same size (Not a difference greater than .02mm in either the inner diameter, outer diameter or width). Luckily, the bearings I ordered are the same size too, lol.
Kingfish
100 MW
They is different: From this link
Both accept a 15mm shaft, and a 35mm hole, but one is 11mm wide and the other 9mm.
Tread carefully :|
BTW - which one did you order?
~KF
Kingfish said:
Both accept a 15mm shaft, and a 35mm hole, but one is 11mm wide and the other 9mm.
Tread carefully :|
BTW - which one did you order?
~KF
