Dewalt, A123 Nanophospate packs disappearing from market

[AndyH]

...Thanks for your update. Do you think that any of the cells you mention approach the life-cycle cost of A123's product? Please recall that A123 features a remarkable life over 1000 cycles, with 100% depth of discharge at 10C rate. Dewalt quoted a 2000 cycle life for tool power applications.

Phoenix Silicon International (PSI) publishes plenty of tech info. Some of it is here: http://mvp090-1.104web.com.tw/cetacean/front/bin/ptdetail.phtml?Part=e40138f1 where you'll find a 1500 cycle life of 100% discharges at 1C. The chart down the page shows just short of 1800 cycles at 1C/100% DOD.

The cells were tested by Sandia Labs for the US Department of Energy.

Andy

 

[gogo]

Dewalt has a recent line of 18V tools using nanophosphate batteries as of May 2009? :
http://www.lowesforpros.com/DeWALT-launches-new-line-of-xrp-and-xrp-lithium-ion-drills

Do these have A123 or is there another nanophosphate battery?

[EDIT] It would seem the 18V uses the smaller 18650 size A123 cell.

 

[number1cruncher]

Thinking outside the box here and using the comments as my backup. In other words i'm guessing. It would seem if the major demand for a123s comes from the tool industry and the tool industry is in any way related to the housing industry, that would link the decline in demand since late 2007 early 2008. I have looked a A123s financials and they don't look too good. But then again Apples wasn't the best in the 90's, lol.

The point I'm trying to make(although I do somewhat agree with Luke) is that collusion may be factor (compromising a better word?), but demand is the end all.

But what do I know, I'm still trying not to blow my house and family up with my Lipo antics. I can't wait for the day we are all strapping fusion reactors to our bikes! Lithium will seem like vacuum tubes... Later

 

[CyclemotorEngineer]

Dewalt has a recent line of 18V tools using nanophosphate batteries as of May 2009? :
http://www.lowesforpros.com/DeWALT-launches-new-line-of-xrp-and-xrp-lithium-ion-drills

Do these have A123 or is there another nanophosphate battery?

[EDIT] It would seem the 18V uses the smaller 18650 size A123 cell.

Well, looks like I was wrong. Crow never tasted so good! According to Dewalt's own press release, these packs include Nanophosphate cells. Capacity and lifetime match A123 specs. Perhaps a deal was struck regarding the patent suit, or these are not A123's original recipe, and/or Dewalt came to the conclusion that the 36 volt line was overpowered. Press release dated December, 2008:
http://www.dewalt.com/us/articles/press_release.asp?Site=cordless&ID=1669

 

[CyclemotorEngineer]

Do these have A123 or is there another nanophosphate battery?

[EDIT] It would seem the 18V uses the smaller 18650 size A123 cell.

18 volts at 2.4 AHr probably means five 26650, A123-designed cells.
http://www.toolbarn.com/dewalt-dc9180.html

Apparently, these just hit the market recently, and they are priced to be sold profitably:
http://www.pricespider.com/Misc/DeWalt-DC9180/technical-specifications/DC9180-t1752146.html

The DC9280 may be had at a much lower price per watt-hour ($0.80), if you want genuine Nanophosphate cells with a date code.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

In more recent news regarding financial information, the company lost nearly 23M this year and 19M last…

They have never had a profitable year. Not encouraging but nothing new.

A123 has unequivocally left the power tool market.

I'm sorry but I missed that entirely. Where is the proof they have left the power tool market? If not proof how about a rumor from a reputable source? (Sorry but I don't count the number of Ebay sellers offering BIN as an unequivocal indication.)

They are now partnering with companies to make grid-stabilizing (read large cells) equipment. The company also seems to be having difficulty partnering with an automotive manufacturer, which was their stated ultimate goal.

Out of all the companies that tried for a Volt contract A123 was one of two chosen for a development contract which leads to the conclusion that they have an excellent product (GM stated that their cells passed all of their performance tests). So it seems likely they will eventually sell to an automotive manufacturer. If that happens either of the following would make a sweet Ebike or EV pack (particularly if you can get them used from automotive packs at a local junk yard ):
32113 Automotive Class Lithium Ionâ„¢ Cell - AHR32113
http://www.a123systems.com/a123/products

32113 Automotive Class Lithium Ionâ„¢ Cell:
A123Systems recognizes that the impending transportation revolution requires industry-specific solutions. To that end, we have developed the high power AHR32113M1Ultra designed for HEV applications, offering very low cost per Watt.

The AHR32113 uses the new Ultra electrode design, offering even higher power than the traditional ANR26650M1.

20Ah Automotive Class Lithium Ion Prismatic Cell

20Ah Automotive Class Lithium Ion Cell:
A123Systems recognizes that the impending transportation revolution requires industry-specific solutions. To that end, we have developed the high energy 20Ah prismatic cell designed for PHEV, EV, and ReEV applications, offering very low cost per Watt-hour.

The 20Ah uses the new HD electrode design, offering even higher capacity than the traditional ANR26650M1 design.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

18 volts at 2.4 AHr probably means five 26650, A123-designed cells.
http://www.toolbarn.com/dewalt-dc9180.html

The 18v packs use 10 18650 cells.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/23725/

Companies to Watch: Public…
Company: A123 Systems
A123systems.com
Market cap: $1.86 billion

Although it lost out to South Korean battery maker LG Chem in its bid to charge up the Chevy Volt, A123 recently struck a deal with Chrysler to provide the batteries for its ENVI line of electric vehicles, the first of which is expected to hit the market next year. A $250 million stimulus grant and a $378 million IPO signaled support from both the federal government and Wall Street.

 

[mjcrow]

The ENVI is history http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-GreenBusiness/idUSTRE5A605N20091107/ Fiat has dismantled the program with the usual line that the battery technology isn't there yet....tell that to Tesla!

 

[Lock]

What is so special about Phostech powder?

It is the FeP in LiFePO4?
tks
loK

 

[CyclemotorEngineer]

A123 has unequivocally left the power tool market.

I'm sorry but I missed that entirely. Where is the proof they have left the power tool market? If not proof how about a rumor from a reputable source? (Sorry but I don't count the number of Ebay sellers offering BIN as an unequivocal indication.)

Hi Mitch,

I admitted that I was wrong about this in a previous post. Unequivocal was an overstatement on my part. Sorry. Reasons for initial concern went well beyond what was available on Ebay. DC9360s were more and more difficult to find from any source, and Black and Decker was ordered to stop selling them, as shown in intitial post. Black and Decker owns Dewalt. Black and Decker discontinued their VPX tool line, which also used A123 designed cells. In the last week, Dewalt DC9360s have re-emerged in brick and mortar stores, as a Google product search will now show. Same search turned nothing up when I started this thread.

Happily, this thread might be retitled to: A123 continuing to provide cells for Dewalt tools. Can we do this? This statement may become more certain once someone opens one of the new Nanophosphate XRP packs, or a principal party issues a confirming press release.

 

[CyclemotorEngineer]

What is so special about Phostech powder?

It is the FeP in LiFePO4?
tks
loK

According to this post, Phostech holds the University of Texas electrode material patent.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9079989&postcount=112

 

[TylerDurden]

The UT/HQ patent was invalidated in the EU, but challenges may still be pending in the US.

The UT patent status may have little bearing on the nanophosphate process A123 employs.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Luke,

On the bright side, hobby city has packs which have identical specs to A123 (your original concern) for cheap. Very likely 12 A123 cells assembled together 2p6s, and at $5.85/cell. Better deal all around than buying tool packs for cells. (If they indeed are A123 cells).

Hobbycity also sells bare A123 cells for a lot more than their packs so it seems a little unlikely they use the same cells.