Does battery chemistry affect range?

[TysonScott]

Im in the process of looking for some battery cell and am wondering if battery chemistry affects the range of the ev, because of the voltage range per cell. A lithium ion cell can go from ~2.4-4.2v but a lifepo4 can only go from 2.5-3.65v since the lithium ion have more effective range if they both have the same amp hours?

 

[Hillhater]

If you compare batteries by ENERGY CONTENT (Whs ), rather than just Ahs, then the effective range will be comparable also .
Packs should have the same nominal voltage to be comparable.
IE:- a 72 v pack might be a 19 cells of Lipo,..but the equivalent pack of LFPo4 would be 21s , for the same nominal voltage.

 

[amberwolf]

A lithium ion cell can go from ~2.4-4.2v but a lifepo4 can only go from 2.5-3.65v since the lithium ion have more effective range if they both have the same amp hours?

You might want to look deeper into the actual usable voltage range of the cells--if you discharge them that deeply it's going to be awfully hard on them, and they won't last you very long. Realistically you're only going to see down to 2.8v or so on LFP, and perhaps 3.3v+ on the other ones, which will not get you the full capacity of each cell, but they will last you longer, and so cost you less in the long run (though you will need a larger pack to get the same capacity, it could last up to several times as long as if you run it so hard that you need to replace the cells frequently).

Regarding the issue of the topic, you may be better off looking at Wh, not Ah, to compare different cells (even of the same chemistry).

Keep in mind also that some cells are heavier, and if they are also lower in average voltage, you will end up with a larger and heavier pack to get the same range as a smaller lighter pack of other cells with a higher average voltage.

Comparing Wh/kg (weight) and Wh/cm3 (volume) will help you compare cells (regardless of chemistry) to find the smallest lightest pack that does what you want. (not counting interconnects and battery enclosure, etc).

 

[TysonScott]

If you compare batteries by ENERGY CONTENT (Whs ), rather than just Ahs, then the effective range will be comparable also .
Packs should have the same nominal voltage to be comparable.
IE:- a 72 v pack might be a 19 cells of Lipo,..but the equivalent pack of LFPo4 would be 21s , for the same nominal voltage.

ok so if i had a 2kwh 100v li ion and lipo battery they should have the same range even though lipo has a smaller voltage range?

 

[999zip999]

Lifepo4 keeps a higher voltage for longer for more available power through its charge and discharge. I was talking of high quality lifepo4.

 

[Hillhater]

If you compare batteries by ENERGY CONTENT (Whs ), rather than just Ahs, then the effective range will be comparable also .
Packs should have the same nominal voltage to be comparable.
IE:- a 72 v pack might be a 19 cells of Lipo,..but the equivalent pack of LFPo4 would be 21s , for the same nominal voltage.

ok so if i had a 2kwh 100v li ion and lipo battery they should have the same range even though lipo has a smaller voltage range?

Yes . !
Any battery with a verified kWh capacity will give the same energy (range) nomatter what the voltage range.
However, voltage range can have other effects on performance … Eg.. max speed can be proportional to actual voltage .

 

[john61ct]

The Ah / Wh capacity combined with how much lifespan, relative longevity you desire, dictates range,

has nothing to do with nominal cell voltages.

LFP lasts 10x longer cycles than li-ion all care factors being equal.

Energy density can be a bit lower with LFP.

 

[999zip999]

Higher voltage through its discharge or range of discharge means more available power. Ok might cut off voltage is 72 volts for my 24s pack on my other chemistry 20s my cut-off boltage is 62 volts or something. Or more power for the light lipo 4

 

[john61ct]

No.

Again,

chemistry A might go from 2V at dead empty to 2.5V at 100%

B goes from 1V empty to 5V full

Either may be more or less energy dense by weight or volume

The voltage delta is completely irrelevant to that factor.

 

[batteryGOLD]

text
am wondering if battery chemistry affects the range of the ev

Not at all.. I think chemistry does not affect much the range, but it could depend on output voltage interval window.

Imagine U have a scooter battery 16S lithium ion 67V, and a compatible LiFePO4 maybe 19S to get same voltage interval range.
Even if U use Duracell alkaline cells, but those are 1,5V rated, soo U need around 40S array..
@google source "DURACELL Battery, 1.5 V, AA, Alkaline, 2.85 Ah, Raised Positive and Flat Negative, 14.5 mm"
Some scooters use 5S Pb 12V and could be replaced easy for compatible 16S6P lithium ion (35Kg vs 5Kg for same range, lithium helps veicule to be more stable, more acceleration, faster because removed 30Kg from scooter! a 16S6P 16Ah lithium battery will perform same as 5S Pb sealed 20Ah, both delivery 40Km range aprox, but lithium will last much longer time! price here 400eur for x5Pb and 600eur for a 16S6P 16Ah lithium battery and U could get back refund 30eur from x5 PB used batteries compared to refund a very used lithium scooter battery worth 60eur(half capacity/20Km range), so Pb initial cost would be 370 vs 540eur lithium(including rebate). Does saving money worth?)

Lithium Ion battery will cost half or 1/3 compared to same Wh LiFePo4 battery (including all cells,bms, and charger) for tha same proposes & voltage window (but LiFePO4 more safe, + current peak out, and fast charge ex. A123 10min fast charge).
price compare different chemistry: Alkaline < Pb < Lithium Ion < LiFePo4 < LTO(hybrid cell/capacitor) << super capacitors w/high capacity

chemistry is just the base reactions method to produce energy, but at final results the Ah is what matters at voltage working interval @ some current demand. someone correct me if I'm wrong.

There are many chemistry available even sub categories. for example at li ion cells we have INR, ICR etc. we have also lithium polymer, LTO, plus LiFePO4 and Pb batteries chemistry and many others..
Some types of chemistry keeps the volts at a more high level during use. Some lasts more life time. LTO go many thousands of cycles.
The matter are Ah capacitity output(at some voltage interval window) and internal IR of cells. but chemistry affects battery life cycles and safety and also recycle concerns

What matters if source is a lithium cell or a nuclear cell? once is rated example @20Ah U should get those 20Ah output..but take in consideration working voltages interval of system. means real Wh output at some voltage interval for comparative proposes of different chemistry elements.

just sayin

 

[batteryGOLD]

math behind the scenes

Imagine a electric scooter 2000W 60V system 30A peak at acceleration /15A average consumption @+40km/h flat (controller working interval voltage 50V-70V) that needs any kind of battery chemistry as long it works!

LiFePO4
nominal:3.2V & 3.65V max per cell to 2.5V working voltage interval
soo for equivalent to 60V escooter battery U need to do math 60/3.2 = 19 ,soo U need a 19S LiFePO4 array to be ~equivalent to Li Ion 16S
so interval range: min(19x 2.5V=47,5V)and max(19x3,65V= 69,35V) this will give more high voltage source to escooter!

while Lithium Ion standard 16S has min(2,7Vx16= 43,2V) and max(4,2Vx16= 67,2V) but could go 17S to be at max72V voltage(+expensive bms/charger)

If controller working voltage range is 70V to 50V,
LiFePO4 battery will be near lower controller voltage limit (about 5% SOC low cut off) and lithium cuts at 20% SOC thats a 15% difference.
but LiFePO4 is 69,3V top vs 67,2V li ion. so maybe more extra 15% , this means around +1/3 extra available capacity factor from 19S LiFePO4 vs 16S lithium ion compared & LiFePo4 keeps voltage higher most time.
LiFePO4 built price is higher due to +expensive bms/charger, and a bit more expensive cells. maybe up to x3 total cost of lithium ion built, but w LiFePo4you get up 2k cycles(6k on a ebike regular use) & +safe battery

Now we compare Pb 5S 12V batteries (working voltage 10V to 14,4V) means max (5x14,4V=72V) and min(5x10V=50V)
those are the higher voltage source for the scooter, leading to more power out. and going to cut at exact controller limit 50V
means escooter uses100% voltage window range from Pb, plus starts at 72V and that plays more output power for the motor at beginning
(Pb cycles/lifetime unknown, some can last from 6months to +3 years.. at cars last +6years, maybe due to pulsed discharge peaks from starter motor profile use)(Pb batteries safety unknown, may fire or expand with use or none.. )

Hope U all understand voltage interval working voltage window at source and load. needs to be a match between battery out voltage range and veicule accepted input in order to put out most capacity/power from the battery!

 

[eMark]

Would seemingly be Yes as one definition of "Progress" being improvement in chemistry cost per kwh. If the chemistry cost is such that it provides more bang/range (cost per kwh) than chemistry will invariably have a positive affect on both bang and range. Isn't that the aim of the battery game (chemistry cost per kwh) ?

Isn't that what Tesla(Musk), GM, Nissan, and others are contemplating: Li-ion 4680 cyclindrical cell chemistry vs Li-ion pouch/prism cell chemistry vs LFP chemistry and other new hybrid chemistries coming down the pipeline).

Who knows what ebike and EV battery chemistry will give the most bang, range, safety for the buck by 2030 ?