Does the Ping v2.5 BMS only balance when it hits 4.2v/cell?

Right, so don't guess. Add some y split connections to the bms wires, some 8s jst plugs, and be able to pop a cellog 8 or other device on the pack anytime to check the balance at what ever your full charge is. Then balance manually if you want to never charge to 4.2v. Or charge to 4.2v just occasionally, to balance as needed.

This is the sort of use Cellman intended when he offers a charger with 3 voltage choices.

I see nothing wrong with balancing the pack at a lower voltage as needed, and using the bms just for lvc.
 
this BMS will balance the pack. no need to buy even more chargers. he just does not want to charge it up to the point where the BMS will balance it. people are constantly mislead into believing it is bad to charge the cells up to full charge so he won't actually use the BMS and charger in the way it was originally designed. there is no way to compensate for that.
 
Well you certainly don't need to balance a balanced pack. When he needs to balance, a full charge to 4.2v per cell is one option.

His charger doesn't put out enough volts to do that. So he did have to buy something to do it by bms. All at once, or part at a time, whatever.
 
dnmun said:
people are constantly mislead into believing it is bad to charge the cells up to full charge so he won't actually use the BMS and charger in the way it was originally designed. there is no way to compensate for that.

mislead into believing? :roll:

when you only charge to 4.1V, you will get about 2 or 3 times more watthours usable over the whole battery cycle lifespan. This is a proven fact and applicable to almost every type of Li battery.
If a BMS only starts to balance if one cell hits 4.2V, than its not a good BMS..
 
that also is an opinion, not a fact. there is reason people who know actually design things the way they do and no amount of group think on bulletin board is gonna change that.
 
circuit said:
Also it is hard to believe that all your cells are so perfectly balance at end of charge. I just don't believe it.

believe me, they can stay in perfect balance very very long time ;)

my 22s9p Sony VTC4 pack only does show me 2mV drift over entire pack. I have built it a year ago. by now about 40 cycles.
 
madin88 said:
circuit said:
Also it is hard to believe that all your cells are so perfectly balance at end of charge. I just don't believe it.

believe me, they can stay in perfect balance very very long time ;)

my 22s9p Sony VTC4 pack only does show me 2mV drift over entire pack. I have built it a year ago. by now about 40 cycles.
Important question here is: at what voltage? At end of full charge? If not, then it does not mean anything.
 
dnmun said:
that also is an opinion, not a fact. there is reason people who know actually design things the way they do and no amount of group think on bulletin board is gonna change that.

it is proven, so it is a fact ;)
it is like the same as the C rating. The lower the discharge current, the higher the cycle life.
Or do you think a 40C rated cell discharged with 40C will offer as good cycle life as same cell only discharged with 10C?
lol
 
madin88 said:
dnmun said:
that also is an opinion, not a fact. there is reason people who know actually design things the way they do and no amount of group think on bulletin board is gonna change that.

it is proven, so it is a fact ;)
it is like the same as the C rating. The lower the discharge current, the higher the cycle life.
Or do you think a 40C rated cell discharged with 40C will offer as good cycle life as same cell only discharged with 10C?
lol
lol yourself. C rating is not directly tied to cycle life. Tesla's tests have proven that there is no direct link.
 
circuit said:
Important question here is: at what voltage? At end of full charge? If not, then it does not mean anything.

I did a couple of measurements at different soc (also fully charged). I never have seen more than 4mV drift. I think the battery even is better in better balance, but the cell monitor isn't that accurate.

tell me why it should not mean anything if i monitor cell voltage not fully charged?
 
circuit said:
lol yourself. C rating is not directly tied to cycle life. Tesla's tests have proven that there is no direct link.

what???
 
please don't get me wrong. if we would treat our Li battery always at the rated (maximum) specs, we will not get as good life cycle as if we use them below these specs.
so i would say cycle life not only correlates to time spent at full charge, but also to some other things.
 
you can go watch his utube lecture and it is a pretty clear case he makes.

when people do real science it is believable but when group think comes into play then it is just someone's opinion.
 
I think Em3ev has always made it clear that charging to 90% extends cycle life.

"Cycle Life estimated at 500 cycles plus. Cycle life is extended by charging to 90% and limiting discharge to 90%. We make it easy to control the Charge voltage with our switching charger. To accurately limit discharge the Cycle Analyst is a great tool."

They currently use 22P, 29E, and 20R. I'm using 25R. Which is pretty much the same thing just higher capacity.

Since I only ride my bike 1 day out of the week, maybe even less, I guess it would seem fruitless to charge to 100%. I guess I could call my 54.1V charger a 95% charger. It isn't exactly 90% but it ain't 100% either. :D
 
that charger he sells does not balance a pack in any case. i wonder why you ever even asked the question in the title of your thread if you have no interest in finding out.
 
dnmun said:
you can go watch his utube lecture and it is a pretty clear case he makes.

when people do real science it is believable but when group think comes into play then it is just someone's opinion.

i have watched this 1h+ lecture.
dnmun and circuit, you can charge your li cells to 4,2V and squeeze them out at their full C ratings (because in YOURS OPINION it will not shorten cycle life).
I will do not because i'm of another opinion :p

@ nukezero:

let the charger and the bms as it is and don't worry. you have hvc and lvc protection and this is all you need. if there isn't a bad cell in your pack it will stay balanced very long time. If one or more cells become bad, use the bleeding leds on the bms as an indicator for this.
 
In any case, he still has a charger that cannot charge to 4.2v.

My always flawed understanding is, if you do charge to 4.2v, you shouldn't store them long at that voltage. Charging to 4.2v is ok if you will not let them sit there like that long. Is the end of an overnight charge and balance using a bms too long? Maybe. But if you want to ride before dawn to get to work, what other options do you have?

I now charge to 4.1v most of the time. Then if I need more range on a given day, I bring up the charge to 4.2v, then immediately start discharging on the ride. If I know I won't use the batteries for 24hrs, I leave them at whatever the discharged voltage was, 3.8v-4v.

You cannot tell if a cell is balanced to .01v if the cell is not fully charged. But you can tell if a cell is grossly out of balance at 4.1v. Obviously if one cell is at 3.9v and another is at 4.1v, you have a pretty out of balance pack.

So what I'm saying is, you can tell if a cell is grossly out of balance (.2 off) at less than full charge, but you cannot tell if a cell is .01v out of balance at less than full charge. This is due to the relatively flat discharge curve of all lithium batteries. And, in addition, most multi cell voltage checkers are not accurate to .01v, including your RC charger.

If you generally charge to 4.1v, then you can get them balanced enough at 4.1v. Bear in mind, balanced does not mean a weak cell got strong. A weak cell will have less capacity, no matter what. Then balanced or not, the pack has less capacity. The main point of checking balance is to find and eliminate weak cells asap. FYI, that weak cell is often the one that overcharges every cycle. So balancing may not help much till you chuck that weak cell.
 
dogman said:
If you generally charge to 4.1v, then you can get them balanced enough at 4.1v. Bear in mind, balanced does not mean a weak cell got strong. A weak cell will have less capacity, no matter what. Then balanced or not, the pack has less capacity. The main point of checking balance is to find and eliminate weak cells asap. FYI, that weak cell is often the one that overcharges every cycle. So balancing may not help much till you chuck that weak cell.

fully agree

we should take the activity of the BMS as an indicator if there is a weak cell. If it always is the same cell which needs to be bleed down, find this one in the pack and replace it as soon as possible.
You will never be happy with any good bms in such a case...
 
Just got the 18650 camera single cell charger, but it only charges up to 4.18V, instead of the advertised 4.2V. Looks like it might fall short of hitting HVC on the BMS. Well, only one way to find out. I"ll hook it up to the BMS when it's done charging. Should take about 3 hours at a crappy 650mA charge rate.

It seems relatively easy to rig this thing to charge a 1S4P pack. In fact, I can just stick a 1S4P pack side-ways into this thing and it'll start charge it! albeit it'll probably take a day to fill up 10Ah at 650mA :)
 
Did you ever charge to 55.2v and see the leds light up and how fast it takes for all to light up. This may help you know the state of balance. Then daily charge to 53v or ?
 
I had a 58.8V charger but I returned it to the seller because I was scared of using it, even with a BMS. What if it didn't shut off and it blew my pack or the BMS or worse? I spent too much time and money on building the pack I wasn't gonna risk it with a 14S charger. And I wasn't gonna sit there for hours to see.

Now maybe I need to find a 13.5S charger, somewhere in between 13S and 14S. :lol:
 
Yes a charger with the correct voltage for your pack. A charger with to high or to low a voltage will not work with your bms. It must be set for your packs voltage for the bms to balance and over volt. The bms can only burn off so much extra voltage and set to high will over charge some or all cells. The bms can only bleed off so much at a time.
I just miss watching those leds light up. I just don't like the high setting on signalab's.
 
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