Does this make sense? (no chain or belt, pedal operated generator and wires to the rear hub motor)

I'm afraid to make a mistake, it seems to me that I rode on it at the exhibition in 2013.
 
So, the company responsible has a long history in hybrid systems and power management...not a bunch of newbs, or some crowdfunded startup. Why would they come up with this, and market it, if it's that stupid? Maybe they know something the amateurs here don't?

https://www.heinzmann.com/en/company/about-heinzmann

Somehow reminds me of all the "AWD is useless/will never work" conversations before a couple of them hit the market.
 
Heinzmann is reputable in the extreme. They came out with hub motors well over 20 years ago that the Chinese still haven't caught up with. They had built-in torque arms! I hope you're reading this, Chinese crap merchants!

But... that doesn't mean they're immune from total BS mongery. Someone at the helm could get senile dementia, or die and pass the company to a choadlet who was born with senile dementia. They still must be judged by what they do. In this case, it's something foolish.
 
We may be too wrapped up in the bicycle concept, which is ironic because this forum leans heavily to electric motorcycles with vestigial human power. They're looking at that - the balance of power between the motor and the human - and thinking riders will gradually give up on "pedal assist" gimmicks and see the bicycle as a motor driven vehicle where you also pedal, but those are just two separate phenomena. Don't ask whether it would work for you, ask whether it would work for the low power rental bicycles that litter the streets here.
 
Hybrid cars work with the IC engine charging the battery. This is the same concept, except a human is charging the battery, but the average delivery van rider does not put out 1/10 the power of a 1000W Honda generator.
 
ccihon said:
If all this accomplished was eliminating chain drive complexity etc, one could drive a hydraulic motor with the cranks and run fluid line in a closed system to a hydro motor at the rear - line running to the back and return to the front....negligible loss and easy placement etc. I think the promise this electric system adds is how simply it integrates to power storage via battery and addition of battery power for assist.

Not sure how gear ratios etc can be changed here, if at all.
Click to expand...
Hydraulic would be much less efficient than electric, that's from seal friction, fluid in pipes has friction, etc. I kind of like this setup tbh, could be interesting as a variable torque sensing assist, pedal at 50% for a long trip, 5% for a quick blast, etc. Being totally disconnected from the back wheel would be weird and if it's really smart and expects you to pedal down hills it would be downright freaky but could probably get the best mileage going.
 
When you are building a lighweight motorcycle on a bicycle frame, you don’t need the crank until the system fails or battery depletes. Pedaling the bike should be easy and efficient then, tuned for the lesser effort bringing back home the big bike. Most performance builders are using a single freewheel that is pretty big, 16 to 24t depending the weight, wheel and chainring size. I can pedal my 86 lbs bike quite comfortably, and once did it 11 miles city trafic riding in about 45 minutes. Pretty slow but I sure was happy to be able to bring it back easy with crank work after unplugging the motor phases.
 
"Hybrid cars work with the IC engine charging the battery. This is the same concept, except a human is charging the battery,..."

Exactly... the hybrid is more efficient than an IC engine alone, for various reasons. Humans have an even narrower range of RPM we can operate at than IC engines do.

No, this wont work for what are essentially electric motorcycles, and probably doesn't make sense when the chainline is short and simple.

On a light, low drag velo trike, a nice steady cadence at a load easily manageable long term, regardless of terrain or acceleration (or foreword movement at all) would be worth a few percent loss, I'd think. Napkin calculations based on current HPV record speeds says that 250 watts would move a low drag trike at over 35MPH, and if the rider can produce even a few percent more than that, there'd be power in the battery to climb moderate hills at close to that speed. Seems like a two or three speed reduction drive in the hub motor would handle extreme situations.

Yes, you'd lose the redundancy of two independent drivelines...but there'd be very few things to go wrong or wear out.
 
Chalo said:
But... that doesn't mean they're immune from total BS mongery. Someone at the helm could get senile dementia, or die and pass the company to a choadlet who was born with senile dementia. They still must be judged by what they do. In this case, it's something foolish.
Click to expand...
As a good illustration, we can turn to the story of the fall of Nokia.
 
Of course, the lack of maintenance on a traditional manual transmission is a good thing. But there is too high a price to be paid for this. Also, everything lacks the ability to use reduction with the gears. However, a healthy and not-so-old cyclist will regularly experience rotor slip when pedaling outside of the design range. Thus, in my opinion, it is suitable for rich people with poorly developed muscle mass or injuries of the musculoskeletal system.

I would easily buy a bike like this for my 72 year old father. However, it is difficult for me to imagine Mike Burrows on such a bike. And this despite the fact that he is 6 years older.
 
by classicalgas » Sep 05 2021 3:39pm

"Hybrid cars work with the IC engine charging the battery. This is the same concept, except a human is charging the battery,..."

Exactly... the hybrid is more efficient than an IC engine alone, for various reasons. Humans have an even narrower range of RPM we can operate at than IC engines do.
Click to expand...
Need a neutral and pedal charge while sitting still at stop lights and chit chat sessions.
 
Silvaticus said:
...
I would easily buy a bike like this for my 72 year old father. However, it is difficult for me to imagine Mike Burrows on such a bike. And this despite the fact that he is 6 years older.
Click to expand...

I am 73 and value crank efficiency very much, for I can’t compensate inefficiency with extra work anymore and get frustrated being slow. I also value reliability because walking a bike is not my favorite sport. But, I am not old enough to need a trike so... I don’t know much more than theory about them. What I know by experience is from trying a leaning motorcycle reversed trike, which is likely to be my choice of ride when my legs start catching up with my age.
 
"ES member Fitek built a series drive. Instead of having a large battery, it had a small battery and the pedals only drove a generator, no chain to the wheels.

Thanks for that link! I would think a bunch of German engineers with a lot of money and experience behind them could make it work better.
 
Supposedly there's a "designer's kit" available from the manufacturer...I've contacted them to ask for one.

We'll see if they respond. I've got a trike I could fit it to.
 
here's another velomobile using series drive...https://www.recumbent.news/2020/06/01/everything-you-want-to-know-about-the-northern-light-motors-428-velomobile/
 
"Need a neutral and pedal charge while sitting still at stop lights and chit chat sessions."

That's an inherent advantage to the system, it's built in.
 
It makes sense in a few cases:
1. Legal reasons - but those are actually rather tricky, since the power is provided by a motor - what if you are powerful, hit 1000w on a generator and exceed 50 kmh - does it make your vehicle a motorcycle legally?

2. You want a EV with a built-in trainer. (A perfectly valid concept, I must add)

3. You want to contribute human power to propelling something that would otherwise be either extremely hard or outright impossible achieve mechanically (think all-wheel-steering, leaning, fully suspended tadpole trike/quad with torque vectoring) and you are willing to sacrifice efficiency.
 
Can not get this out of my mine. Was a critic of automatic transmissions at one time. Do like the CV's of the newer cars.

Most if not all comments here raise good points. Not one comment claims that this would be better than a chain and would be weird being disconnected from the road. Don't think most eBikes on here are that efficient. So we are talking about 5%. If I moved my top speed from 30 mph to 25 would I gain that 5% back. Take off the fat low pressure tires and replace them with high pressure road tires. I'm getting where hard pedaling is just not an option and not getting better. Don't think this will be come common or popular like ICE.

Remember the days when you had a broken motor mount in that standard shift truck when you back up a little the torque would lift the engine and it would floor board the throttle. Good old days when you were connected with linkages to the motor. Maybe a little disconnect is a good thing.

Just a few thoughts.
 
BalorNG said:
2. You want a EV with a built-in trainer. (A perfectly valid concept, I must add).
Click to expand...

Yeah, that doesn't seem stupid and pointless at all.

[youtube]IJQhKENLuOI[/youtube]
 
Trained Athletes are capable of putting 2000 watts plus (for a short time) through a single speed bicycle chain drivetrain so why does this only have a 250 watt rating? It should come with a 3000 watt hub at the bare minimum. This to handle a combined human powered 2000+ watts plus a 749 watt and below electrical assist.
 
Silvaticus said:
This is designed for unhurried pedaling by feeble old women. Of you try to pedal a little more aggressively, or step on the pedals while climbing uphill, then the pedals just twist and you can lose your balance.
Click to expand...

A future version could use a bigger generator and/or two speed gear reduction mechanism (for the bottom bracket generator) as found on the bafang h700 hub? This to provide increased effort when more leg force is applied?
 
I have found a logical use for a generator crank: Pedal Kayaks wouldn’t need a hole in the hull anymore.
 
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