Downhill project motorcycle transmission

Yeah you're right on the throttle response, certainly no rush to fix that. I kind of like it savage and am adjusting to suit.
One thing I did notice today was the watts meter showing a peak of 6223 watts, not that this is particularly low but it does coincide with the max amps the meter will handle, it's a turnigy 130a. Is it possible that the watts meter is limiting current to 130ish or will it just fry over a certain amperage?
6000 watts has certainly got some boogie but the astro will peak out at 9000 for 10 seconds I'm told. If it is limiting the current does anyone have a recommendation or is a CA the only alternative?
 
Ecobogan said:
Yeah you're right on the throttle response, certainly no rush to fix that. I kind of like it savage and am adjusting to suit.
One thing I did notice today was the watts meter showing a peak of 6223 watts, not that this is particularly low but it does coincide with the max amps the meter will handle, it's a turnigy 130a. Is it possible that the watts meter is limiting current to 130ish or will it just fry over a certain amperage?
6000 watts has certainly got some boogie but the astro will peak out at 9000 for 10 seconds I'm told. If it is limiting the current does anyone have a recommendation or is a CA the only alternative?


no the turnigy watt meters top out at around 6200-6500 the watt meter will not truly restrict the current . Yes pre-longed over current will make the meter hot , and the input wires and output wires of the meter may also get warm .. you may well be hitting peaks of 9kw unless you have another means of measuring you will never know and I'm not sure if even a CA will be fast enough to catch the peak current as it will be a very short peak due to the weight of your bike.. could always run a second wattmeter in P with the first this will give you a measurement up to around 12-13kw. The throttle response is something that can be a problem and there is no 100% fix due to the nature of the controller that you are using, the throttle tamer will help also the CA used in current throttle mode will be more of a real fix .
 
If you can go into the castle controller software, there is a throttle response setting. The default is #5. I would set it down to 2 or 3. This will soften the hit for sure.

This thing will be a freaking insane BEAST in delta. The powerband will be far deeper. You will have nearly twice the top end horsepower. That motor is a wimp in Wye. Delta is freaking WICKED!

My red Hooligan is running that same motor in a 5 turn. It is even faster and the bike weighs 55 pounds. I set my response at 1 or 2. You will get the hang of it.

Matt
 
I know I know. Video was meant to be up yesterday but I don't have time, far too involved in riding this thing.
Matt, took your hot tip and re wired in delta and mate, it transformed the power delivery as you mentioned. It rips and is now a fire breathing baby dragon!!!!!!!!!!! No joke it's far happier in delta and top speed in 6th in wye is now 3rd gear in delta with still walking speed hill climbing ability in 1st. Far smoother and will hold a power mono for far longer.
Honestly, roll on acceleration in 3rd is approaching dirt bike territory. Hard to tell for sure without a side by side drag race but I know plenty of lads who are keen to take me on!! I'm proper wrapped with thing and it's getting better. EVERYONE should have one of these things.
Developmental mods at this point are more chain guides as it derails quite easily, no big drama. I'll need a new hub, disc rotor, sprocket, gutsier rim and heavy duty spokes. As well as at least 10 more 8ah 6s batteries if anything just to distribute the draw load. These are only 20c burst and I'm pushing the friendship with my gluttonous greedy right hand running 4 at the moment, 2s4p.
I'll try to do a vid later today. This build was a good move and exactly what I was after, the dirt weapon scope is huge and all with very little noise and no pollution. Very revelling in my ecobogan juices.
 

Attachments

  • P1110183.JPG
    P1110183.JPG
    113.7 KB · Views: 2,835
  • P1110189.JPG
    P1110189.JPG
    96.9 KB · Views: 2,830
  • P1110186.JPG
    P1110186.JPG
    99.6 KB · Views: 2,831
That should be 2s2p not 2s4p and feel free to ask me how I managed to fix the batteries down in such an awesome artistic manner. Looks like a cybernetic cane toad has had a large crap all over my bike. Very IN look at the moment
 
You mentioned something about maybe even do a liquid cooling. I wonder how you plan to do that, I guess there are not much left of the water channels in the engine now that you removed the top and the cylinder. So how would you go about water cooling?
 
Do you need all 5 gears, or could you maybe just use 1/3/5 (or maybe 3/4/5?)
 
THIS, is what I was trying to accomplish a long time ago! A shiftable RC drive is WHAT WE WANT around here! I mean a twin drive with a setup like this could eat dirt bikes and still do trails if the throttle could be tamed! Come on Matt, build it in billet!!
:)
 
We're having some savage weather down here presently so might be a few days off with the vide still, you'll just have to take my word for it in the meantime.
Gwhy, cheers for the watts metre info. I'll have to look into something a bit more serious sooner than later.
On the liquid cooling, which is partly why I went for an MX trans, is the two stroke crankshaft housing. How I'll cool the motor will have nothing to do with the original cooling set up at all, none of it remains. The motor is fixed into the crankshaft housing and sealed off from the gearbox and its oil, just the motor shaft pokes through to the box driving what was the clutch gear. The crank housing is about 100mm in inside dia and the motor is about 80mm in dial, so the Astros sits where the crankshaft used to like. Right, so that leaves us with around 10mm of space between the Astros and the housing, this is the cooling jacket.
The original barrel mount opening along with the magneto opening will have to be capped off ( the magneto opening as viewed from the left side of the bike shows the Astros motor with its wires sticking out) once this is done it's a case of running an inlet and outlet at each end of the motor via a pump and some sort of small radiator.
I must say Matt that judging by my bike in its fledgling stages, your set up running two of these motors and higher performance ones at that will be some utter serious dirt bike beater to say the very least. I reckon the bulk of the 3kwr nan tech's job will be counterweight trying to keep the front down!! I was thinking you could gear it up, fit a motard wheel set and proper waste some big buck road bikes through the mountains.
My set up with just one of these motors is honestly almost eye watering in acceleration from say 10 to 80ish kph. I'm struggling to understand how out can to be honest! I never expected it to come anywhere near close to my beloved RMZ450 in performance or be in the same room as a hi po MXer, truthfully it would SMOKE the RMZ's ass in the 10k to 80k run............. easily. Won't do it for too long batteries wise but it'll do it. Without going on and on I've been into and indeed owned a fair number of quick bikes, dirt and street, and this thing is utterly blistering. Still doesn't compute though.
Gears, yes now I get why many people wouldn't bother but it is handy for certain things. 1st is only good for uber slow work and very steep hills, 3rd/4th for general riding which is what I use most of the time then straight into 6th. So indeed a wide ratio 3 speed would be perfect but I think I'll just put up with shifting through the ones I don't need.
I'd put some thought into a servo or solenoid shift set up as gear shifting is a little kooky and will put that into action when I get to it. If performance dirt riding's your thing then an Astros powered downhill is a fine place to start.
 
Ecobogan, thanks for the comments on the gears. I am interested because I am just about to start a (lower power) project with my son, based on a Kawasaki KX65 gearbox which I was hoping to slim down by using only 3 gears. Sounds like that is a good plan!

Build thread to follow as soon as the 'box arrives and I get to work...meanwhile, I am following this thread with interest. Sounds awesome/terrifying :mrgreen:
 
Yes, I have been touting the need for gears in an electric for some time with no love really. To be honest most people thought I was crazy until the mid drives started getting popular. The thing is, it allows the bike to do more than one thing well just like a real dirt bike. If you want slow trail riding consuming less power per mile you use the lower gears to multiply the torque without using the throttle so much, if you want to rip high speeds, the shift up! Cheers to you for doing this! I am sure it will get people thinking more about a dedicated RC drive three speed box!!
 
Just a note regarding water cooling - we did the same to a greenpower motor. few notes
1) you can't get good thermal contact withthe water in a seperate leakproof thing - what works best is having the water flowing over the outside of the motor
2) we got rid of leaks by cutting the water cooling channels into a piece of 3mm thick rubber. We then surrounded this with a flat ally plate & used a coup[le of duct clamps to squeeze it all together.

pretty easy & worked a treat. Only raced once because of race regulations (& got subsequently disqualified then...)

I'll draw a diagram later on.....
 
I believe that is what he is talking about. It sounds to me like the coolant flood will be in direct contact with the motor can which is where is the windings and laminations or epoxy to, directly inside the motor can.
 
Get the right diameter and you're sorted ..

inrunner WC jacket.jpg

yes I think eco is saying that where the motor is now.. if he capped the opening then he can fill the whole void with water.

a bit like the water jacket picture i posted but even better.

or like this one:
motor_jacket.JPG
 
watercool.jpgDiagram of our water cooling system. Sorry I don't have any photos... (I do have some old plumbing & the header tank - used a plastic milk bottle top....)
 
bobc said:
Diagram of our water cooling system. Sorry I don't have any photos... (I do have some old plumbing & the header tank - used a plastic milk bottle top....)

nice.. thanks , could use RV silicon to make the rubber section from a mold .. make the channels as big as possible .. :D
 
The channels don't have to be so big. Let's assume you have a 5kW motor that's 95% efficient - that means you have 250W of heat to deal with.
The specific heat capacity of water is 4.2kJ/kg/K so allowing 25celcius temp rise, the flow rate has to be 250/25/4200 kg/sec = 0.00238kg/s or 143 cc/minute. Not much at all.
So you only need little pipes & a little pump. I wouldn't trust convection - the tinyest airlock stops it.
Don't be led astray by the gert big cooling pipes in a car engine - those things have hundreds of kilowatts of heat to deal with.......
 
Thanks for all the responses guys and on the cooling, I could've explained that a little better. Gwhy and Matt are onto it, the motor can will be surrounded by water except for the ends. I'm assuming that where the wires come out of the motor and where the end can screws are will not be as watertight. I'm not too sure what kind of radiator to use and was even thinking of long flat aluminium tubes one on each side of the frame that the water could pump through, would have to be sleek. A small radiator mounted the upper forks is the other place. The water cooling is actually fairly important a job to sort out sooner than later, this little guy gets proper hot.

On the gears, a KX65 would probably be a better choice than the 80 due to the weight, mine is way on the porky end of desirable. Are you planning to mount the motor as I have inside crank housing or some other how?
One issue with these gearboxes I've found, is the powerband on a small two stroke being so narrow necessitates a close ratio box to keep the engine in its powerband. An electric motor is of course at a polar opposite. Point being that in hindsight I could've investigated the gearbox ratios of four stroke engines more thoroughly, they have a wider powerband and no doubt have wider ratios. A two stroke,I led myself to believe, would lend itself more to water cooling due to being able to separate the crank housing from the gearbox fairly easily. If you can jig the shifter drum to select 1st 4th and 6th or whatever then do it, wouldn't work on my set up with out an A-class mega hassle of a headache, so I just up and left it as is.
The bike itself is under the knife again for some driveline beef ups. As mentioned some removable chain guides are next to go on and re visiting that poor decrepit little chain tensioner that is copping the hiding of its life. Then it'll have to take on the dirt bikes.................or something!
 
The radiator on this kit seems nice and slim ?

http://www.watercoolinguk.co.uk/p/WCUK-XBOX-PRO-Dual-40-Watercooling-Kit_1460.html
 
bobc said:
Diagram of our water cooling system. Sorry I don't have any photos... (I do have some old plumbing & the header tank - used a plastic milk bottle top....)


Why would you have a rubber mat inside the cooling sleeve? Wouldn't that sleeve insulate the sleeve from the motor can? It should be metal touching metal for best possible heat transfer. They way in your pic seems all wrong to me. Pls explain the drawing.

file.php
 
the rubber mat has the water channels cut into it and contains/seals it in, its a very easy/cheap way to put the water in contact with the motor case.
 
Funny you should mention the Kawasaki KX65, that's exactly the gearbox I have chosen and in fact the postie turned up with the bottom end today ! A bargain at less than US$25. Bet I don't stay that lucky for long :D

My self-set challenge is to get a 2 (or 3?) speed box all in the right crankcase half, so it stays very narrow. Obviously I will need to shorten shafts etc. The crank space is 80mm diameter, spot on the Astro motor casing , if that is what I end up using. (I'll set a new build thread up, and stop hijacking yours!)

Most small four strokes don't have a materially wider rev range than the two strokes and the ratio spread is probably of the same order. Some have pressure fed gearboxes, so best avoided...I think you made a good choice for the power you have. Your bike looks awesome already.,
 
Back
Top