E-bike Haters - Why do so many people miss the point?

[Punx0r]

Nothing wrong with wearing lycra when you need it. I discovered lycra when skiing.

 

[dogman dan]

Not far from how I used to look, except my lycra was more colorful. I did have a pretty tight ass, and my thighs could not fit in jeans at the time. It was fun sometimes when I crashed particularly hard. Tight ass, pony tail. Dumb cowboys would ski up all "are you ok?" And I'd turn to face them laughing, and they'd see my beard.

When I did ski the lifts, I did want people to see me and be suitably in awe. I took extreme skiing to it's maximum, and was doing it telemark style. That's the super light gear favored by ski mountaineers, no heel binding, and I used to huck the big air on that gear. Of extreme skiers, only 1% skied freeheel and hucked air. Part of why my back gave up the ghost by 35. Skiing in the top 1% tore me up pretty good.

 

[50yearoldebiker]

It's ONLY the die hard hard core MTB or road bike " purisits " that have issues with them from my experience which is fine & this critcism is pretty much only on Internet forums as I dont enter my E-Bike in the Tour D France or MTB races oh & also the occasional low IQ A-hole..
I've gotten nothing but compliments, I've had people turn their cars around to ask me about it, flag me down, stop their cars & come into stores i'm in just to ask about the bike , I've had as much attention from the Ladies as any nice car or Motorcycle I've owned.
Whoever want to call the a motorcycle not a bike i'm fine with as long as the laws dont recognize it as a motorcycle & make me insure & register the sucker.
But the truth is a lot of the E-Bike haters are just jealous, one time I was coming out of the ATM & I overheard a guy say to his friend " look an Electric Bicycle , this is why as a society we are so fat " I responded hey man this bike gives me a great workout, save up your paper route money & try one for yourself "

 

[chas58]

People hate regular bikers too. I get a fair amount of grief when I wear lycra and a helmet. If I wear jeans and no helmet, people seem to be much more relaxed.

(Having landed hard on my helmet last year, breaking two ribs and ripping all the tendons off of my color bone (at the shoulder) with no injury to my head or neck, I kinda like my helmet).

Cars hate bikers – I get yelled at all the time (if I wear lycra&helmet) to get on the sidewalk (which isn’t 100% legal here, and certainly not safe going at the 20mph unassisted I usually do). I have had people totally out of the blue just run me off of the road – I assume because the last biker he saw pissed them off somehow, and I was just a convenient place to vent rage.
Horseback riders hate bikers – There are some awful feuds here on who can use what trails, and guess who has more money?
Pedestrians hate bikers – actually I always slow down and call out when passing a pedestrian, but I see most bikers just silently blow by pedestrians at 10-20mph.

Really, it comes down to how you treat people, and even more so for ebikes. If you slow down and don’t scare people generally they are pretty cool with you. It’s when you ride arrogantly and aggressively that people slot you into a negative stereotype. Pickups on the other hand just are going to piss on bikers any chance they get for some reason (around here at least).

 

[veloman]

Nothing wrong with wearing lycra when you need it. I discovered lycra when skiing.

well done!

 

[veloman]

Not far from how I used to look, except my lycra was more colorful. I did have a pretty tight ass, and my thighs could not fit in jeans at the time. It was fun sometimes when I crashed particularly hard. Tight ass, pony tail. Dumb cowboys would ski up all "are you ok?" And I'd turn to face them laughing, and they'd see my beard.

Dude you are a riot. LOL Thanks for the laugh :lol:

 

[grindz145]

Remember that a great deal of cyclists are really just lazy runners. They're athletes that don't care less about practical application. It's purely a sport. To these type of people, there will never be enough justification in the world. I feel no ill will toward them, but still, they are missing the point.

 

[Chalo]

Ignorance & Jealousy....

I write off any LBS that even mildy gives me "stink eye". Money rules in business and they won't get any from me.

Mail order is generally "eBike neutral", btw.

Mail order won't help you troubleshoot your mechanical problems.

I have never seen another person's e-bike that didn't have some mechanical problems, for what it's worth.

I'm a bike professional who likes e-bikes. I also recognize that they are minimal motor vehicles, not extra-special bicycles. I have mixed feelings about giving them the same access privileges as real bicycles, in the same way that peds may not think it's a good idea to share sidewalks, retail spaces, and office corridors with people on Segways. But as long as e-bikers stick to the same performance envelope and expected behavior as normal cyclists, I'm okay with them using bike lanes and paths.

Once it's a moped or a motorcycle, I don't care if it has pedals or battery power or not. At that point it belongs in the street with the other motorcycles, abiding by M/C rules.

I won't keep any bike in my shop that can catch fire by itself. So lipo battery bikes are just as unwelcome as drooling gasbikes (just not nearly as unpleasant). And I don't work on electrical systems because I don't keep electrical tools in the bike shop. But if an e-biker has a flat tire, a broken spoke, or a shifting problem, I can help with that.

I don't think it's necessarily wrong for a bicycle service shop to draw a line between real bicycles and e-bikes, though. E-bikes are heavy, clunky, and burdened with a lot of stuff that gets in the way of normal bike servicing. Oftentimes their basic bicycle functionality is impaired in the course of adding e-power, so bringing them to a cycle mechanic is like bringing an intentionally broken car to a garage to be "fixed" (but not really fixed).

 

[lbz5mc12]

Well I just had a long conversation with my Uncle who's a bike mechanic by trade. He pointed out his reasons why he won't work on electric bikes when they're brought to where he works. He made a good point about the fact that a lot of us use parts for things which they were not intended and he's always afraid that if something breaks he'll have to deal with an angry customer. I mean for example I've got parts from seat post clamps attached to the rear frame of my bike that are holding the rear rack on. There are of course those mechanics that feel e-bikes are an abomination to bicycles but then there are those that are genuinely afraid that they'll accidentally damage the electrical components.

 

[John in CR]

Appreciate the slow growth and take advantage of the relatively wide open spaces while ebikes are so few in number. Once it changes it's going to suck in a lot of ways.

 

[fizzit]

I've had a couple people in cars yell "nice bike!" while I'm riding beside them, or give me the thumbs up. One guy tried to engage me in a conversation about my bike while we were both traveling at 30mph. I noticed that he had a small child in the passenger seat :lol: There's always the occasional jerk that passes you closely or pulls out in front of you, but I figure that they just are distracted or a terrible driver.
I've had no reactions from cyclists, except for once or twice I've pulled up next to a cyclist at a stoplight and they say "is that an electric bike?" and I say "yeah" and they say "cool." I think that they understand that since I'm wearing a full face helmet and a huge heavy backpack, I'm not in any way competing with them.
I've found that pretty much everything that a bike mechanic does is pretty dang easy, so I've never had to deal with one. If you are smart enough to build an ebike with LiPo, you are probably smart enough to fix your bicycle yourself.

 

[Chalo]

I've found that pretty much everything that a bike mechanic does is pretty dang easy,

If that's what you think, I think you'd have choked on most of what I did today at work. You'd have been fine with the easy parts.

 

[veloman]

I changed a rear flat on a Currie Izip the other day. Yeah, it's a huge PITA. But the customer had just come from a bike shop who turned him away and knew it was more work. So I got paid more for it.

Changing a flat on a hub motor isn't as bad, but still more work for sure.

Overall it's pretty similar to a normal bike. I think bike shops should do non-electric repairs. As for electrical issues - you can't expect them to deal with that.

 

[full-throttle]

I've found that pretty much everything that a bike mechanic does is pretty dang easy

+1
And being paid accordingly :wink:

I think you'd have choked on most of what I did today at work.

If it involved sucking you win

You'd have been fine with the easy parts.

Easy parts FTW!

 

[liveforphysics]

I have never seen another person's e-bike that didn't have some mechanical problems, for what it's worth.

My roadbike might be that example with no mechanical problems at the moment. I've replaced all of the drivetrain with modern Ultegra or DuraAce parts now (except the perfectly fine Ultegra crank arms), and focused on dialing in alignments of all the derailluire pulleys and things (by making tiny bends) to minimize chain angles. de-burred the edges of the Ultegra chainrings until they would climb off the tooth so effortlessly without hanging that the pedals will spin backwards a number of revolutions when you just spin the crank backwards. (that was my personal measurement assessment of drive-train system parasitic losses to target improving)

The front brake is an Avid BB7 road caliper setup and carefully shimmed and filed on the cro-mo fork mounts to be aligned and located perfectly to not cause a bit of drag and have the pads dead parallel to the rotor, but the feel of the front cable brake with the new dura-ace cable/housing all properly seated and secured to have about zero backlash between lever motion and pad motion, and just a couple degrees of lever motion results in pad contact starting. It feels better to me than the big hydros on my downhill bike.

All bearings are new and properly pressed, chased the threads when I replaced the bottom bracket even. It's pretty damn dialed in. It could use a half inch taller stem, but I haven't swapped that yet because I want to try my hand at brazing titanium and making my own.

My front hub freewheels when I pedal, I haven't even bothered connecting the controller up, I'm just enjoying the hell out of riding it around carrying the weight of the motor and cro-mo fork at the moment. I'm still deciding how to design the aero battery holder I'm going to 3d print to cover the nano-tech packs along the backside of the down tube and the seat post receiving tube.

I want to be one of the first bicycles both to convert to ebike, but retain/improve the efficiency it had before while being pedal powered. The 10amp controller will just be on an on-off toggle button.

 

[Chalo]

I have never seen another person's e-bike that didn't have some mechanical problems, for what it's worth.

My roadbike might be that example with no mechanical problems at the moment.

I bet yours isn't the only impeccable bike (of whatever style) in the E-S crowd. I'd love to check it out just the same.

My assertion didn't cover bikes I have only seen in pictures-- although there are plenty of things you can spot in a picture-- but just those I've had a chance to inspect directly, or to repair.

Recently I characterized the market for e-bikes as being composed of two separate demographics-- nerds and weenies, for short. I see the folks participating here as being mostly of the nerd variety, but out there in the world I mostly find weenies when I spot e-bikes.

The nerd sees a problem and goes to significant effort to address it (occasionally creating several more in the process). Our initial problem might be a thousand-foot hill, a 20-mile freeway commute, a toasty knee joint, or a stupendous beer gut. Or it might be a restless sense of curiosity, or a friend with a special need. That's what Endless-Sphere is all about, I think. We find problems, make more problems, and solve problems too (sometimes well enough to change the course of the industry). The result constitutes a kind of sport unto itself. Accomplishments are plenty, but inconsistent. The game is in the struggle. Most of us don't reach the point where we've resolved whatever it was that first got us working on it, and turn our attention away again.

The weenie sees an imaginary problem (or perhaps just stumbles across his own attitude problem), fears it, and wants to buy something that will save him from it without any real effort on his part. The e-bike subspecies of weenie sees pushing pedals as a fearful problem to be solved. What he really needs to do is man up and give it an honest try, but instead he buys a magic bike that's full of actual non-imaginary problems. I live and work right across the river from a significant e-bike-only dealer, so these are the e-bikers I encounter in person. Their bikes are troublesome, but entirely mysterious to their owners.

 

[liveforphysics]

Here are the first pictures of how my new project looks at the moment.

Those are the smallest diameter spokes you can buy (Sapim super-spoke), and I ride this bike down big flights of stairs and jump every curb I can. The shimano rear wheel goes out of true perpetually, and I'm pretty sure it's going to break one of these days. The front hubmotor wheel with super thin tiny spokes takes it all like a champ, it needed 1 truing after it's first day of hard stair set abuse, and since then it's stayed dead-nuts.

The batteries are taped on there at the moment so I can go ride and see if the weight will spoil the feel of the bike, because at the moment it's 14s 10Ah (518Wh) and if it makes the bike not feel fun to pedal around anymore, I will remove battery until I arrive at a capacity that still preserves the bikes fun factor to pedal, even if that means just a lone 10s 5Ah pack (185Wh). If you're only drawing 10amps while on throttle, 5Ah is actually quite a lot of assist time. It would take ~130-150 of these bikes drivetrains to dyno what the other electric bicycle in the background lays on a dyno. lol

 

[50yearoldebiker]

Chio wrote, I never seen someones E-Bike that didnt have mechanical problems for what thats worth

Huh ? take a look @ My E-Bike , no mechanical problems whatsoever here :wink:

 

[dogman dan]

Damn Luke, at least get stronger tape. Looks like it will be a nice clean bike when done. With both wheels grabbing as you pedal through a corner, it will ride real nice.

Re other comments. Working on my own bikes is nearly always easy. VERY easy compared to for example, doing even simple maintenance on a disposable car like my wife's ford focus.

But the crap customers drag in? I bet that's a whole new world. Put a tiny scratch on somebodies precious $150 Schwinn piece of crap, and you never hear the end of it. I bet the customers that bring in expensive stuff get even worse. Paid a lot, then abused it, and now want you to magically erase the damage with an adjustment. It can't be very fun.

 

[GCinDC]

I ride this bike down big flights of stairs and jump every curb I can.

vid or it didn't happen.

but seriously, i've been meaning to ask you about this bike, but it always seems OT. :lol:

and now that we're here, i can't help myself from asking... - anything to get my mind off dogman's tight ass... :lol:

1. i know you have tons of gopros and it would only take 3 seconds, so please, give us a nice little vid of you taking that thing down the stairs. it would be so good for the ebike movement. i'm serious!

2. i happen to be back to pedal only power at the moment, on my road bike, after 4 years of evolving electric assist, so i'm with you on this build. but rather than just have it throttle only, how about using a pedelec? ...it would be very ironic to go back to low power assist considering your first experience with the bionx! (IIRC from podcast). not that those lipos would be low power!

3. have you considered upgrading the seat? silly question. what gauge spokes then? 14?

 

[Lenk42602]

well..

I have never seen another person's e-bike that didn't have some mechanical problems, for what it's worth.

My roadbike might be that example with no mechanical problems at the moment.

Recently I characterized the market for e-bikes.....

The nerd sees a problem and goes to significant effort to address it (occasionally creating several more in the process). Our initial problem might be a thousand-foot hill, a 20-mile freeway commute, a toasty knee joint, or a stupendous beer gut.

The weenie sees an imaginary problem (or perhaps just stumbles across his own attitude problem), fears it, and wants to buy something that will save him from it without any real effort on his part. The e-bike subspecies of weenie sees pushing pedals as a fearful problem to be solved. What he really needs to do is man up and give it an honest try,

I think you have nailed down a few categories, but there are in fact a few on this board that have taken the time to completely move through concept, design, and build out phases of their bike projects and have come up with fully functional bikes relative to their intended goal. I will concede that this is a small percentage, but it is still notable.

Would you categorize Luke as a weenie or a nerd? To me, it just seems easier to pedal 20 pound road bike than strap 10 pounds of kit on it and pedal a 30 pound roadbike with a little bit of extra wattage. But then again, Luke may very well have created specific design parameters during his design phase in attempt to meet a specific goal. Dunno.

Here are the first pictures of how my new project looks at the moment.

LFP, just from the few pictures you have posted, mechanically speaking, your front derailleur is positioned several millimeters higher than factory specified above your largest chainring, and the cable housing loop run on your rear derailleur is longer than necessary. Both of these will decrease shifting performance. Extra length in your housing just slows shifting, but a poorly positioned front derailleur may throw the chain altogether. If it is misaligned laterally as well, you will invariably be unable to fully utilize the intended gear ranges of your rear cassette realtive to the front chainring you use without chain rub on the front derailleur cage. This will also add some degree of parastic drag on your drivetrain as a result. Additionally, the trim funtionality of your STI shifters will also be compromised. The deburring of the chain and chainrings will essentially yeild no net gain unless the mechanical aspects of the bicycle are addressed first.

Your octalink - era crankset (Ultegra FC6503) should be utilizing a 118.5 mm spindle. any other width, which are available for double road and triple mountain widths, also vary in length. There is consequently also a "gen 1" octalink splined style BB and a "gen 2" style splined bb which are not compatible. Proper chain line begins with proper BB and BB width.

Rear derailluers are not adjusted by "making tiny bends" to adjust chain angle. There are high and low speed limit screws, low speed gear adjustment screws. These set screws are what defines the travel of the rear derailleur across the rear cassette, and the gap between the top floating pulley when riding along your lowest speed gear.

If you are bending the derailleur hanger to adjust the chain line, I suggest you investigate the use of a PARK DAG 2 tool or other similar alignment guage. This guage will quickly determine if your rear hanger is bent.

I am sure Chalo would explain all of this if I don't.....

 

[GCinDC]

oh, and in response to the question:

E-bike Haters - Why do so many people miss the point?

never underestimate ignorance...

speaking of which, i find it amusing that the jeston electric bike, which was featured on oprah, has finally capitalized on one of the most common (ingorant but understandable questions): Does it recharge itself when you pedal?

Take note salesmen!

Tell the women what they want to hear!

 

[liveforphysics]

I ride this bike down big flights of stairs and jump every curb I can.

vid or it didn't happen.

but seriously, i've been meaning to ask you about this bike, but it always seems OT. :lol:

and now that we're here, i can't help myself from asking... - anything to get my mind off dogman's tight ass... :lol:

1. i know you have tons of gopros and it would only take 3 seconds, so please, give us a nice little vid of you taking that thing down the stairs. it would be so good for the ebike movement. i'm serious!

Member Aceutaro (Henry) took a video of me doing some stairs on this bike just after we finished replacing the cable housings. I will PM him to post it here if he still has it on his phone.

2. i happen to be back to pedal only power at the moment, on my road bike, after 4 years of evolving electric assist, so i'm with you on this build. but rather than just have it throttle only, how about using a pedelec? ...it would be very ironic to go back to low power assist considering your first experience with the bionx! (IIRC from podcast). not that those lipos would be low power!

I think a button I can push for throttle is way better IMHO than pedaling. I can hit the button while way leaned over, and I hit the button if my legs are cramped or whatever as well. Button to press for power = better than pedalec IMHO by a huge degree.


3. have you considered upgrading the seat? silly question. what gauge spokes then? 14?

I have considered upgrading the seat. It broke in half again on an unexpected log in the trail while doing some gently downhill single track in the dark that I happened to be sitting down for because I didn't expect the log and hit it at a decent clip. It broke the first time from a buddy who wrecked it at the pump bike track, which also put a substantial dent/deformation in the rear rim and knocked the wheel out of alignment, but with a little truing it was able to get dialed in again.

The spokes in the front are these:
http://www.sapim.be/spokes/butted/super-spokes

1.4mm center cross section. That's 17awg. This bike not only has a hubmotor as unsprung mass, but it also has my body as unsprung mass. These spokes have a material tensile strength that is twice as strong as most spoke materials.

 

[GCinDC]

It broke in half again on an unexpected log in the trail while doing some gently downhill single track in the dark that I happened to be sitting down for because I didn't expect the log and hit it at a decent clip.

gosh, i'd hate to see what happened to the pizza you were carrying...

 

[liveforphysics]

It broke in half again on an unexpected log in the trail while doing some gently downhill single track in the dark that I happened to be sitting down for because I didn't expect the log and hit it at a decent clip.

gosh, i'd hate to see what happened to the pizza you were carrying...

There was no Pizza involved, I wasn't riding with no lighting of any kind on a highway at >50mph in flip flops carrying a large pizza at night in Costa Rica.