E-bike speed limits wtf?

[wesnewell]

Any fit cyclist can go 30+ mph on flat surface with a decent road bike. Why should we old unfit farts be limited to 20 mph? I guarantee my bike is a lot more stable at higher speeds than some flimsy light weight road bike with 1" tires.

 

[Chalo]

Any fit cyclist can go 30+ mph on flat surface with a decent road bike.

For one minute. I suggest that the median speed for bicycles and for e-bikes that are regulated as bicycles should be similar. Since e-bikes are heavier, perhaps e-bikes should even be a little slower, since they pack more kinetic energy.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Yeah, 30mph is ~600-800 watts. An average cyclist can maintain 100 watts, good for ~15mph. Someone in good shape can maintain 150 watts, which is good for ~17-18mph. A very few elite riders can hit 200 watts maintained, which breaks over 20mph.
Lance Armstrong fully drugged up and already one of the elite among the elite could maintain ~400 watts for only about 20 minutes. That's still not enough power to push a normal bike over 30mph.

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, racers also hide in the peloton so 300w can go a long way tucked in there. A fit racer is amazing though, One goddess in my town can outrun an ebike limited to 25 mph any time. She maintains more than 25 mph for many many miles. She always has some big dude tucked in behind her, struggling like hell to stay hooked up. When I go to the really big race in the spring, there she is on the podium every time.


I don't think there should be a very low maximum speed limit for Ebikes. 20kph limit is stupid. Mopeds often have 25 mph limits in the US, but cannot use the bike trail. Why should ebikes be much slower than mopeds? I have to admit, I haven't ridden a moden moped. But the 70's ones were no more safe at 30 mph than the cheapest bike. Same deal, you ain't gonna save yourself with brakes.

I'd like to see moped like limits adopted, 20 or 25 mph. 30 is real nice, like my state. But reality check, 20 mph is not a bad limit for ebikes, on the flat. Of course, the speed limit going down hills is, wait for it, the posted speed limit.

Then have them able to use bike paths, BUT, have much lower posted speed limits for the multi use paths. 15 mph perhaps, or less in congested paths. Bottom line, ride with some common sense and a faster bike is fine. 20mph plus may be fine on a road, but not fine on a multi use path. I'll admit, it took me awhile to learn that. That's why there should be some signage on the paths to suggest riding slower. One old guy I talked to had been hit by road bikers 3 times. Riding fast and tucked, they never saw him.

Anyway, I'm trying to say just because 10 or 15 mph makes sense for the bike trails, doesn't mean it's ideal for an ebike that is trying to survive on the street.

 

[veloman]

Pro cyclists average 30mph for 15-60minutes during time trials with aero gear/bike. That's 400-450w. Fit amateur racers like myself could put out 300w for 2hrs, 500w for 2min. Not many can hold 30mph for a minute, but some can. A lot depends on the wind and even a slight downhill helps a lot.

Has anyone ever been stopped for going 25 on an ebike with no pedaling?

 

[cal3thousand]

I'm going to maintain that the the speed limits should reflect the places or roadways that the vehicle will travel.

But I do agree with many sentiments here. Drunkskunk's point about bringing undue attention to us other fast ebikers resonates with me; and the "go unnoticed" method is often times the best. With that in mind, I ride fast but not fast enough to attract attention. That means keeping to respectable speeds when others are around, especially on routes designated for pedal bikes and other slower moving organisms.

On streets with 40 mph limits, where cars often travel 45 mph, I feel that going that fast on a bike is alright if the bike is properly built to go that speed. But at that point, the bike becomes more of a moped.

My bike will be registered with California as a motorized bicycle, allowing me to go 30 mph without a license. (16 y/o requirement; $20 one-time fee) That's reasonable enough as a speed limit for me on public roads (65 mph speed limit on the highway doesn't stop me from going faster -as the traffic safely allows- in my car). I will keep to just above 30 mph for most stretches of open road and slow down or speed up as needed.

I really just like the versatility of being able to go on a bike path OR on public roadways and being able to keep speeds that are reasonable for each. To that end, I ride with respect for the other main users of any particular path, keeping me on the "accepted" side.

 

[alsmith]

Im not satisfied with this current limit on speed limits. Does anyone want to join me and raise the federal speed limit to 30mph? By doing so creating a path for ebikes to become more mainstream in the States.

That's a good idea? Don't you think that would mean compulsory insurance together with everything that would go with it- licensing, testing (rider AND bike), insurance. Once it is in place for one category the rest would follow- how can observers easily tell which category it would fit into? America does it, the rest of the world would follow....

 

[friendly1uk]

The 15.5mph limit is too slow, because by 15.5mph is has turned off. Power gradually fades away from a lower speed to achieve this. Without any effort these bikes will reach 12mph if your lucky. A very pedestrian speed. It is said that the effort required to walk at 3mph will take a bike to 9mph, and that I feel is important when talking about vehicles used in pedestrian areas. Vehicles a 14yo kid can legally jump on and ride through the local paved marketplace.

So, without thinking about my own needs, i can see the 15.5mph machines are fairly suited to their user group. Any dickhead.

We limit 50cc ice bikes to 30mph for learners. Quick skills test, tax test and insurance. Helmet and some 'L' plates and your off. Using the roads like every other motor vehicle.

Once you passed your car test, you used to get this 50cc bike usage included without having to wear the L Plates. Because you can use a road and go faster than that anyway.


I still think it's reasonable to have two categories. One for the inexperienced and one for license holders. Remembering this is a vehicle for pedestrianised area's not something you ride in body armour. Anything fast enough to do serious damage needs to be accountable. No 30mph bike can be tearing through paved shopping zones in the hands of a delusional child who actually thinks it's grand theft auto come too life.

The eu standard seems ok. If your licensed for motor vehicles then why not a bit more though. I feel pedestrian until I can no longer hear. Then I feel vehicular. I think my bike should be able to take me to that speed unassisted. Once I can't hear due to wind noise it seems I really could hurt someone in a collision. That is the implication that puts bikes on the street with license plates and insurance.

17mph unassisted for license holders. Assisted to 20mph. License at risk for being stupid.

I choose these speeds based on safety, not what I believe a cyclist can achieve, although I think it compares well. One aspect rarely cited is general traffic speed. We hear that cars do 30, so it is safest if we do 30. We don't hear the other side of this. Where we want to use bike lanes so we should do bike speeds. Or should we act like cars....

Understand my bike is faster, but I'm not on about my bike. I'm on about walmarts. Plus I want tighter weight restrictions on faster bikes, linked to damage control. Or they won't be pedal bikes anymore.

 

[Avitt]

From the California vehicle code:

(b) This section does not prohibit the use of a motorized bicycle in a bicycle lane, pursuant to Section 21207.5, at a speed no greater than is reasonable or prudent, having due regard for visibility, traffic conditions, and the condition of the roadway surface of the bicycle lane, and in a manner which does not endanger the safety of bicyclists.

...sounds reasonable.

 

[alsmith]

From the California vehicle code:

(b) This section does not prohibit the use of a motorized bicycle in a bicycle lane, pursuant to Section 21207.5, at a speed no greater than is reasonable or prudent, having due regard for visibility, traffic conditions, and the condition of the roadway surface of the bicycle lane, and in a manner which does not endanger the safety of bicyclists.

...sounds reasonable.

Reasonable until something happens then the argument changes to whose judgement is correct, that's why quantifiable limits are/should be set.

 

[999zip999]

In mission viejo I was going down hill 42mph in a 40 saw the motorcycle cop with a rador gun so I started peddling hard. Then he look at his radar gun and didn't chase me. I do think he had a time with it as I saw he checked twrice. So it's just a judgement call for the heat.

 

[dogman dan]

Going downhill, it should have been almost legal for you to go that fast. Limits on speed found in the definitions sections of the vehicle codes generally specify a typical rider weight, and flat ground. You were going downhill, so your speed limit is the speed limit.

2 mph over the speed limit generally will not draw a ticket around here unless in a school zone, even in the notorious speed trap of Mesilla NM. 5 mph over often slides by. So assuming you had a limit on flat ground for the vehicle type of 25 mph, one can assume most cops in the USA would not go crazy if they see you doing 30 mph, in a place where that speed is "reasonable and prudent" whatever that is. That's too vague, and interpretation will be biased. Multi use trails need posted speed limits IMO.

 

[Ch00paKabrA]

Any fit cyclist can go 30+ mph on flat surface with a decent road bike.

For one minute. I suggest that the median speed for bicycles and for e-bikes that are regulated as bicycles should be similar. Since e-bikes are heavier, perhaps e-bikes should even be a little slower, since they pack more kinetic energy.

Agreed.

I am not one for lots of regulation but I believe this one to be good. While it is true that a fit rider can maintain 30mph on a bicycle, let's look at both bike and rider. The rider will most likely be under 200 pounds and the bike will most likely be a road bike that light so let's say around 25 pounds. That is 225 pounds (most of which is squishy driver) that will cause little property damage in the event of a collision. Since is is lower weight, the braking distance will most likely be low as well.

Now lets look at an 80 or 90 pound ebike with Chalo sitting on it going the same 30 mph. I intend no disrespect but in another post you had mentioned that you were a portly fellow. So now we have doubled the weight of the rider/bicycle combo which affected braking and and handling and will now cause considerably more damage in the event of a collision.

Additionally, the rider on his road bike took a long time to get to the point where he could travel at that rate of speed which means that he has experience riding a bicycle and has most likely encountered incidents that required him to improve his skills while riding on two wheels. The same is not true for an ebiker. A person with no experience going that speed and relatively little actual bicycle experience can hop on an ebike that goes 40mph + and may not be able to handle the speed.

That being said, my next build is going to one such 40+ mph ebike. Yes, I am a proud hypocrite. :lol:

 

[dogman dan]

Same argument about the learning curve applies to motorcycles. The L plate sounds better than the way it's done in the USA. People barely learn to ride, then take their test on a light 125 motorcycle. Next week, they are astride a 1000cc 150 mph capable crotch rocket. I've often thought that there should be another test for a 250cc or larger bike. Not that 250cc crotch rockets are slow, but the mass matters on a big Harley.

We call them lemmings, or suicidecles. We've had our first spring fatalities already.

I don't buy it that racer type road cyclists are safer. The guy I know that got hit 3 times on the multi use trail got hit by a racer every time. They ride tucked, and only look forward in short glances. And on the hills on that path, 35-40 mph is no problemo.

It's important that arguments about this are aimed at either street or path. What is fine on street for weight and speed is not fine for the path. The solution is not a weight limit, not limiting it to 50 pounds or whatever. The guy in the saddle could be 100 or 300 pounds. The solution for the path is a speed limit for the path, not for the vehicle itself. Obviously there must be some kind of speed or power limit. 5 hp is not a bicycle. But I see no reason why mopeds driven at a safe speed should be barred from a multi use path. Get hit by a 115 pound racer on a 15 pound bike going 30, and it will hurt you plenty. Even that light, when sharing the path with infants in buggies, and people jogging or walking, 30 mph is not safe. Some paths, like Pacific Beach San Diego, 5 mph is too fast.

 

[cal3thousand]

Same argument about the learning curve applies to motorcycles. The L plate sounds better than the way it's done in the USA. People barely learn to ride, then take their test on a light 125 motorcycle. Next week, they are astride a 1000cc 150 mph capable crotch rocket. I've often thought that there should be another test for a 250cc or larger bike. Not that 250cc crotch rockets are slow, but the mass matters on a big Harley.

We call them lemmings, or suicidecles. We've had our first spring fatalities already.

I don't buy it that racer type road cyclists are safer. The guy I know that got hit 3 times on the multi use trail got hit by a racer every time. They ride tucked, and only look forward in short glances. And on the hills on that path, 35-40 mph is no problemo.

It's important that arguments about this are aimed at either street or path. What is fine on street for weight and speed is not fine for the path. The solution is not a weight limit, not limiting it to 50 pounds or whatever. The guy in the saddle could be 100 or 300 pounds. The solution for the path is a speed limit for the path, not for the vehicle itself. Obviously there must be some kind of speed or power limit. 5 hp is not a bicycle. But I see no reason why mopeds driven at a safe speed should be barred from a multi use path. Get hit by a 115 pound racer on a 15 pound bike going 30, and it will hurt you plenty. Even that light, when sharing the path with infants in buggies, and people jogging or walking, 30 mph is not safe. Some paths, like Pacific Beach San Diego, 5 mph is too fast.

Good point about lycra's and their focus on bodily performance and mental perseverance. They do travel quite fast with their heads down. When I'm on my ebike, my head is on a swivel and I'm constantly checking my mirror.

 

[zener]

Same argument about the learning curve applies to motorcycles. The L plate sounds better than the way it's done in the USA. People barely learn to ride, then take their test on a light 125 motorcycle. Next week, they are astride a 1000cc 150 mph capable crotch rocket. I've often thought that there should be another test for a 250cc or larger bike. Not that 250cc crotch rockets are slow, but the mass matters on a big Harley.

We call them lemmings, or suicidecles. We've had our first spring fatalities already.

I don't buy it that racer type road cyclists are safer. The guy I know that got hit 3 times on the multi use trail got hit by a racer every time. They ride tucked, and only look forward in short glances. And on the hills on that path, 35-40 mph is no problemo.

It's important that arguments about this are aimed at either street or path. What is fine on street for weight and speed is not fine for the path. The solution is not a weight limit, not limiting it to 50 pounds or whatever. The guy in the saddle could be 100 or 300 pounds. The solution for the path is a speed limit for the path, not for the vehicle itself. Obviously there must be some kind of speed or power limit. 5 hp is not a bicycle. But I see no reason why mopeds driven at a safe speed should be barred from a multi use path. Get hit by a 115 pound racer on a 15 pound bike going 30, and it will hurt you plenty. Even that light, when sharing the path with infants in buggies, and people jogging or walking, 30 mph is not safe. Some paths, like Pacific Beach San Diego, 5 mph is too fast.

sometimes the suicidecles take some other with them into nirvana.
2 or 3 years ago one of the suicidecles had a blast on his rocket on a country road and slamed with about 250km/h right into the driver-door from a car from a woman on a t-bone wher she wanted to enter the country road and not expeted a 250km/h rocket. Instant death both.
Fault? who? guvment allowing the sell of them? you decide!
I can even without a driverlicens buy a 1200cc supermoto in the EU

 

[dogman dan]

Yep, the point is, whatever the limit is, somebody will find a way to make it dangerous. I find it odd that a tiny bit of training, and off you go on anything in a motorcycle. You might pay a lot for insurance, but off you go.

I got an idea, lets make everybody of every skill level ride 15 kph. Ever read the old sci fi story, where everybody fit had to wear body weights, everybody with good eyes had to wear goggles to blur his vision, everybody that could think had to hear an alarm every ten seconds to break his concentration, etc? This is where too much nanny state leads. Somewhere there is a happy ish compromise.

The more I have discussed this and thought about it, the most sense is simply speed limits for places, not the vehicle itself. Yes, at some point you have a divide between motorcycle and moped/ebike. But I really think any unhandicapped adult can handle 25 mph on a bike with a minimum of practice. Yes, you have to learn to stop, and not give yourself too little space to react to hostile traffic. But it's not sheer pandemonium if bikes travel 25 mph on normal streets. 200w rules have got to go!!!

 

[The fingers]

Speed limits apply to autos with trailers and large trucks, according to roadside signs; but you don't see laws which limit the design of those vehicles. Extra headroom velocity is necessary to avoid dangerous situations such as when traffic signals change or vehicles are merging into our space. We need a really good ebike lawyer.

 

[Bronko]

Gentleman there are some really great opinions and facts being posted. Dogman I especially like some of the points that you made about motorcycles and people's behaviors.
But the fact of the matter is that at some point Ebikes will become a more popular mode of transportation
And in order for ebiking to go mainstream I think you will see speeds between 30-40mph
Not built by custom hands but instead from world class manufactures.

If you do not feel safe going over 20mph on your 80lb plus bike it is totally your call to do so.
I have to commute on many roads that are long stretches of 40mph with no bike lanes and or good side walks(for pedestrians and slow bikes anyway) and don't want to get run over.
All I want to do is to be able to operate my vehicle out in the open proudly showing the mundane car commuter day dreaming in the middle lane what a glimpse of freedom and a pioneering spirit looks like.
You guys should be proud of the incredible builds being created and shared on this forum not ashamed
conforming to a neutered declawed vision of what an ebike from 10 plus years ago when these laws where drafted by oil loving congressman.

Let's rally for this my brothers.

 

[dogman dan]

I see the same complaint from Veloman about the roads in Austin. That sucks for you, fortunately in my town alternate routes are pretty good. Slower residential streets, multi use paths, and a network of dirt irrigation ditch roads.

I have never visited Austin, but it sounds like a town where you would want a 250cc motorcycle or scooter. I can't see playing in fast traffic unless I can smoke em off the light and be in front and in the clear most of the time. It's just simply going to take a motorcycle class vehicle to get safer riding in Austin. Find a cheap used frame and slap one of those 3000w kits on it? Or more power? By then of course, you have to tag it, insure it, etc. Gotta have a vin number to get started.

It just sounds like a place with no good places to ride safe at even fast ebike speeds of 30 mph.

 

[veloman]

Central Austin is easy to bike around in, even without a motor. Its when you get to the suburban areas and the countryside where many key roads are narrow and/or high speed.

 

[dogman dan]

Similar here if you go far enough out, past suburbia. Narrow old farm roads, no shoulder, 55 mph speed limit with cars going 70. Lots of traffic, as farmers sell off 5 acre plots to keep the farm afloat. It's why I won't pull a cargo trailer on a tour. Gotta be able to make the dive for the ditch if you must.

But it's really nice how the city is making all the larger subdivisions include bike path along the 4 lane arterial roads, and bike lane on the 2 lane arterial roads. It just goes in in random sections, with stretches of death road in between. In a decade, it completes a route. Hopefully this continues as the sprawl engulfs the earlier built neighborhood I live in. As it is now I have a good bike lane to connect to the start of the bike trail system.

But there are older arterial roads in town, you don't want to bike them, you don't even want to drive them, but unless on a bike, the other choices are few. On a bike, you can sneak all over town on the bike trails or ditch roads. The ditch roads have gates only peds and bikes can get around. They cover the oldest parts of town pretty good since it was once all irrigated farmland. There was chile farms right next to main street in 1920.

 

[JohnT818]

I have to commute on many roads that are long stretches of 40mph with no bike lanes and or good side walks(for pedestrians and slow bikes anyway) and don't want to get run over.
All I want to do is to be able to operate my vehicle out in the open proudly showing the mundane car commuter day dreaming in the middle lane what a glimpse of freedom and a pioneering spirit looks like.
You guys should be proud of the incredible builds being created and shared on this forum not ashamed
conforming to a neutered declawed vision of what an ebike from 10 plus years ago when these laws where drafted by oil loving congressman.

Let's rally for this my brothers.

The way the regs are set up in California now, I believe 40mph is too fast to be legal for an electric bicycle. Here, you can have a single coaster brake and be legal! An electric bicycle isn't required to have a taillight at night, just reflectors and a wimpy headlight. Not ideal for interacting with traffic at 40mph.

I'm pretty comfortable doing about 25mph or so on my ebike, and I can see raising the limit to 25 or 30, but I think a bike capable of 30mph or more should have stricter requirements. I don't see anything wrong with making people register them as mopeds and requiring them to have better lighting and better brakes, so if that's what you want, I'm all for it! Taking it further, I think a bike capable of 40mph, or maybe 45mph, should be registered as a motorcycle or a motor-driven cycle and should comply with the associated requirements.

Personally, for the type of riding you describe, I'd want a light motorcycle or scooter capable of about 45 or 50mph.

 

[Barnfresh]

25-30mph e-bikes in Cali are already required to register as Mopeds. Additional requirements are a license plate, drivers license with a m/c endorsement and DOT helmet.

 

[Bronko]

I'm fine with all that. I just think that there should be a more clear path for someone who wants to operate a electric moped on the street. Good brakes and tires a must as well as good running lights.
I am trying to create a brake light that activates when you squeeze the brake lever. Or maybe I could some how wire it to a regen button. Any body out there got this better brake light figured out?