E-Bikes for Idiots

[elliothaughin]

Hey guys,

First of all, thanks for this awesome resource. I've been looking into e-bikes for a while now, and I can't wait to get started and build my own.
The problem for me is that I'm certainly no mechanic or electricial. I'm a web developer, and I've got a fairly logical brain, so I figure that building my own e-bike could be within my reach.

This summer it looks like I'll be moving from England to the SF Bay Area (The really flat valley). My quest is to build a beautiful, powerful, but SIMPLE e-Bike based on the Electra Townie 8d Balloon (image included).



It's a great looking bike, and its quirky ride position is getting great reviews as being an extremely comfortable ride.

When I first started looking into this, I thought about just buying a MagicPie 48v/1000W kit and that's it, but then I saw they've had a few problems.
So, for a complete novice, I'd like to go for a motor that's reliable, quick, torque-y and fun.

Loads of you guys seem to be using the X5304, would you think a front-wheel 26" would be a good place to start?
Or, would you go for the X5304 26" rear-wheel? (It's the 8d townie, with the more standard gears, so this should fit?)

I've been looking at batteries, and controllers. This is where I come a bit stuck. I'm a bit lost. The likes of doctorbass with his immense knowledge and expertise baffle me.

The best I can work out is that the these Lithium Phosphate batteries are the way to go, so I found the 'Ping' 48V 20AH V2.5 LiFePO4 Battery Pack. Would that be plenty of juice? I noticed lots of you guys seem to get lots of smaller battery packs and use them together, rather than one big pack, is this hard to do?

Once I've got these, all that's needed is a controller, brake lever, throttle, and possibly cycle analyst.

What controller would be a good one to start with?

Finally, do all these parts just 'plug' together, or would I need to crack out a soldering iron, pray to the gods and hope I don't kill myself?

Essentially, what I'm after is a setup that's basically like a 'kit', but where I can use the X5304, great batteries and controller, and just plug it all in and go. Am I asking too much?

Oh, and my budget will be about $6,000 (US) for everything, including the bike, and possibly some disc-brakes as an upgrade.

Cheers,

 

[torker]

Heck for 6000 you can fly me to Sf to personally put it together.. Welcome to the forum..

You are on the right track. The triangle on that townie is huge so you can fab up a way to put the battery there and go with a rear motor. You could go with a front but those forks look pretty skinny and the wheel looks to be quick release maybe making fit harder. 5304 would be fine. There is one on sale here on the site. It is possibly more motor than you need but for the hills you could pair it with a 35 amp controller and climb right up. Which brings me back to the battery. If you want a good climber go with the higher amp controller like 35 amps and use at least a 20 ah Ping or go with Lipo batteries and go wild. You could do all this with another cheaper,lighter direct drive hub like a 9C but if you want bulletproof then 5304 is the way to go as long as you never have to pedal it with a dead battery

Welcome again, be forewarned a couple of your comments may make the "quotable quotes" thread.

 

[elliothaughin]

Thanks for the quick reply! And for not flaming my complete ignorance

I saw a fantastic townie thread on here with all the gear in the triangle bit of the frame, looked totally bad-ass!

A bit more info that might help you guys out. I weigh 130 pounds, I'm 5'11", and 24 years old. Stayed the same height and weight for 5 years now. I'm guessing the fact I weight about as much as a child might help me out with top speed and hill-climbing.

I've not exercised since school and the awful mandatory rugby matches, and I don't intend to start. God certainly didn't build this body for anything remotely physical.

Basically, the goal would be to be able to get a bicycle where I can peddle to get it started, then just hit a button, sit back and cruise.

First up, the bike will cost up to $700 with the large mud-guards and a solid rack over the back wheel.
This leaves $5,300 for the rest (if I built into the frame, I'd budget to have the 'covers' hand air-brushed with a beautiful Union Flag!).

Imagine something like this, on each of the 'sides'.

View attachment bike tank.JPG

If I'm going to spend a good amount of cash, I want it to look beautiful as well as perform after all!
A nice paint-job like this would be do-able for $500 max from a talented airbrush artist. So, that leaves $4,800 for the 'gear'.

The x5304 rear wheel sounds great to me, (with torque arms to I guess).

It is possibly more motor than you need but for the hills you could pair it with a 35 amp controller and climb right up

Ok, so which controller would you recommend?

If you want a good climber go with the higher amp controller like 35 amps and use at least a 20 ah Ping or go with Lipo batteries and go wild

Then, It's batteries. So, to get these in the frame, I'd need lots of smaller packs? Of Lithium Polymer Batteries?
If so, where do you get these, and are they very difficult to wire up?

This is certainly the inspiration: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23701
If this was a proper step-by-step, everyone like me would be jumping right onto e-bikes, but it's a bit difficult for a novice like me to follow it all.

I'm guessing 48V at 30Ah would give me what I'm looking for (range, torque, speed, larger penis, women chasing my bike down the street, etc).

Cheers,

 

[dogman dan]

Hmm. for 6k, I'd build you a bike then deliver it to SF too!

Seems like there is a bit of dilemma here, because you want a gutsy 5304 motor and presumably a fairly gutsy controller to go with it. The problem with this is the battery can't be an ordinary motor kit riders 48v 15 ah lifepo4. The big motor and controller kill these batteries.

So that means you dive off the deep end, into lipo packs, headway lifepo4, or A123 lifepo4. Possibly over your head if you have to build it yourself. Cellman, in the for sale section of the forum is your guy for an A123 pack.

Perhaps there are simple solutions though. If your need for speed is not over 20 mph, you can make a 9 continent setup that climbs hills well using a 6x10 winding motor, 48v 22 amp controller, and a 48v 15 ah pingbattery. Simple, easy to charge, and able to climb 15% grades easily.

Another common choice for SF is the BMC gearmotors. Lotsa good folks in the SF area to help you, once you arrive.

The electra townie is an excellent choice for an ebike. Huge battery space in the frame. 8)

Edit. Wait a minuite. reading again, you wont need to climb steep hills? If not, then build a typical commuter with a 9 continent kit, such as an Ebikekit.
http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=product&id=110&parent=4 Then power it with a 48v 15 ah battery from http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-12/48V-15AH-V2.5-LiFePO4/Detail

This will get you cruising at 27 mph on flat ground. Plenty, you simply don't need the extra weight of a 5304. On the race track, I have a 9 c motor that goes 45 mph easily. You'd only need the 5304 to get a large weight up a long hill. Or push even more watts than I do, going 45 mph.

 

[torker]

Haha, yea it might give you a woodie :lol: Ok sorry, I don't want to see this moved to the biker bar..

You say you want plug and play= no electrical knowledge so you can go with the Ping. Lipo will put out all the amps you want but you will have to do some soldering and really watch what you are doing when making connections. Ebike.ca sells a kit that is plug and play with or without the Cycle analyst. Torque arms=yes for sure. Give Justin at Ebike.ca a call when you are ready to order and he can set you up proper.
Or do like Dogman said. A 9C will do what you want for less money and use less battery.

 

[elliothaughin]

Ah, I see... So whilst the motors and controller technology is more 'pre-built' and straight-forward, the batteries are where things get complex with what I'm after?

So, it's not simple to buy a crap load of these and plug them together?
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14074

I know I could just order a 9C kit, but I'd really like to get with the X5304 and 'learn' as I'm going. I don't mind spending time and money to build this, as I could do with a hobby, and it looks like something that will not only provide me with a sweet bit of transport, but it'll also build my knowledge of electrics, e-bikes, and geeky stuff in general.

Here's another idea. If I bought the wheel, controller, throttle, brake lever (the more 'kit' parts), could I just pay someone to build a custom kick-ass battery setup for me? If the provider knew the controller and motor, they'd be able to basically wire up all the cells together, and provide me with a simple 'plug-and-play' unit.

The 'unit' would consist of all the cells wired up with a connector for the controller, and charger (maybe with a charger provided), and I could then mount these to the board, plug in the controller and I'd be ready to rock and roll?

 

[torker]

Yep, Cellman like Dogman pointed out is on this forum and posts in the for sale section. I think he is building custom packs with A123 batts. They will put out the amps you want.

 

[dogman dan]

With that budget, I would bet somebody can fix you up with a good lipo pack with all connectors installed and a charging setup.

It's not THAT hard to go lipo, but some experience with easier to handle stuff can be cheap, compared to expensive mistakes.

Here's a suggestion, get the 5304, but dip your toe in by running it on 12s lipo for a time, then once comfy, bump up to 72v or more. So you'd start with a 48v controller, then move up to more volts later. You might be happy with 12s permanently, depending on how fast you have the balls to ride.

12s lipo is fairly cheap, and fairly simple. Just 4 batteries to connect, instead of 8 for 72v 10 ah. so 4 less chances to misconnect and get kentucky fried fingers till you get the hang of it.

 

[neptronix]

geez, if you are working on a $6000 budget you can forget about lipo and get some high quality A123 or a pre-built headway pack that will fit your frame.

Add the motor + controller + throttle of choice to that, get yourself some torque plates made, and you will be well under the $2000 mark by the time you're done.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I am a fan of the Electra Townie. For anything over 20-MPH I would highly recommend a front suspension fork and a front disc brake. ("mens original 21D" model has front suspension, and front disc brake lugs. It comes with front V-brakes, but the mounting lugs make a front-disc an easy upgrade.)
http://www.electrabike.com/townie/

With that budget there's no reason to compromise on anything. I agree with Dogman in that the 530X is not neccesary, and not to save money. It is heavy, and it will drain your battery faster than a 9C. It is really a moped motor, especially at 72V. Nothing wrong with it, but for relatively flat land the 9C has plenty of hair on its chest, and you will get more miles from the same size of battery.

All the three bikes I mentioned are hardtails, so I would suggest to start with very fat tires and a Thudbuster sprung seatpost. Its about $150, a little pricey for a seatpost, but you will never need another. The rubber-plug springing rate has several adjustments available.
http://thudbuster.com/products.html

I am now planning to get some cell_man tabbed-A123 cells made of LiFePO4, because they have a very good C-rate ("C"urrent discharge and recharge), but they definitely need a soldering iron as of now, though I believe he plans to produce ready-made packs available soon.

Definitely plan the entire build around a 48V system. I have read a 25A controller is a noticeable performance improvement over the common 20A. With flat land, a 30A might work well as the amps spike up on acceleration and cool down during cruise, but on steep hills it allows you to pump lots of amps continuously. High amps on a long steep hill really needs a temp alarm for a hot controller and motor.

Ping is a well-tried and highly regarded product. I'm told the C-rate capability is such that a 9C would need a minimum of 15aH size to avoid voltage sag under heavy loads, but the 20aH looks somewhat bulky. If you want to mount the battery in the triangle, mock-up some boxes the same size as the 10aH Pings and see if two of them will fit. That would be relatively slim (4-ish" wide?), plenty of miles, and enough battery volume to ensure you don't have voltage sag even under heavy loads when using a high-amp controller. Having two packs also means that if there's a problem with one of them, you are not stranded waiting for parts.
http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-48V-LiFePO4-Battery-Packs/Categories

I haven't used a 9C or a Ping, this is just from my research here....best of luck with whatever you choose.

 

[Lessss]

For 6 G you can build an electric motorcycle.

 

[elliothaughin]

Right, so I've just spent some time researching the A123 stuff.

I still don't really have a clue, other than they look like a ton of expensive rechargeable batteries modified into a cool 'pack' form by cellman.
That seems pretty sweet. From the looks of it these things are pretty cutting edge.

So, would it be possible to get an A123 'pack' built at like 48v with 20 or 30Ah in a slimmer but longer format? (I'm guessing the Ah is basically your 'range')?
My guess is that it'd be more like 4 packs with 5ah, or 2 packs with 10ah wired together (in parallel?) to get 20ah?

I mean, even if the batteries cost a big chunk of the budget, I don't really mind. It's quality I'm after really.

Also, what on earth does 12S, 10S etc mean? Yes, the title is ebikes for idiots!

With that budget there's no reason to compromise on anything. I agree with Dogman in that the 530X is not neccesary, and not to save money. It is heavy, and it will drain your battery faster than a 9C. It is really a moped motor, especially at 72V. Nothing wrong with it, but for relatively flat land the 9C has plenty of hair on its chest, and you will get more miles from the same size of battery.

Ok, so the 9C wheel? Would that be the 2806 or 2807 for the 26"?

I checked the simulator on ebikes.ca to see the difference. (I'm learning!)

View attachment Screen shot 2011-03-01 at 01.28.06.png
View attachment Screen shot 2011-03-01 at 01.28.22.png

From what I could tell the 2806 Had more speed and 'thrust' (torque?) but goes up to 1050w peak instead of the 2807 which looks less thrusty, less speedy, and only went up to about 975W. I'm guessing the 2806 is the 'rip your bollocks off for fun' model?

So-Far my notes are looking a bit like this:

- Townie bike = $700
- 9C 2806 26" (The 'gets you there with stained underpants' model) = $215
- 35A brushless controller with 12xAOT460 mosfet, ON/OFF button and CA connector, and ebrake (Infinion) = $120
- Custom A123 48v 30Ah pack(s) ready for me to plug and play, shipped, with charger and maybe a key = $???, would need to get a quote on it.
- Front and rear disk-brakes upgrade
- 'Thudbuster' seat
- New front forks
- Custom airbrushing for frame casing

How does that all sound?
This feels like it really could be the dream bike.

 

[spinningmagnets]

In battery-speak: S= Series ,and P= Parallel

The often listed voltage per individual cell for LiPo is 3.7V, so 6 of them in Series (6S)= 22V, and 12S would be about 44V (though In the real world the newer LiPo is a bit higher volts).

LiFePO4 is usually listed at 3.2V per individual cell, so a 16S pack would be about 51V.

Regardless of chemistry, most batteries have noticeably higher volts when fresh off the charger, so a 48V controller will usually handle anything below 60V.

 

[neptronix]

elliot..

My best advice to you is to spend some time reading this forum before you hop out and buy anything.
There are so many questions to be answered from a newcomer standpoint that i can be overwhelming to many of us.

There is a lot to know in reality. I spent months browsing before i bought anything.

As for your questions..

10s, 12s, 8s, etc. are all cell counts. Different battery chemistries have different voltages as well. So for example, lipo will charge up to 4.2v, where lifepo4 and some a123's will charge up to 3.6/3.75v.

So when you see the "S" number, take the nominal cell voltage and multiply it by the S.

I am running 10S of lipo, with a nominal voltage of 3.7v per cell, so i have a 37v pack.. commonly referred to as 36v.

Then the P refers to how many cells you have in parallel. Cell size is different for each battery that is commonly used.. from 2,000mah to 20,000mah. So if i had a 10s2p setup of zippy flightmax 5000mah 5s packs, i would have 4 zippy packs.. 2 of each in serial groups, both of those groups in a parallel configuration.

But like i said earlier, go spend some time reading the forum. look at some ebike videos on youtube. look into the reviews / video section of this forum.. get an idea what you want. don't listen to just one person, we all take different paths and have our own ideas

 

[spinningmagnets]

Ok, so the 9C wheel? Would that be the 2806 or 2807 for the 26"?

Yes, there are a couple of naming conventions for the 9C, 2806 means 28mm wide magnets, and the 06 means it is a 6-turn motor (number of wire turns on each motor stator tooth). The 6, 7, and 8-turn 9Cs seem to be popular (also called the 9X6, 9X7, and 8X8). More turns means better hill-climbing but less top-speed per volt, fewer turns means faster top-speed per volt, but weaker hill-climbing.

The matter is further complicated by how when changing the voltage, it changes the motor speed. Higher volts= higher top speed (using the same motor). Sometimes higher volts can mean that you get the same power with fewer amps, and amps (current) are the biggest contributor to system heat and inefficiency (higher volts=good).

 

[elliothaughin]

Spinningmagnets, neptronix...

Thank you very much for explaining the electrical side of things! That's so much clearer now.

Just as a self-test, I had a look at some Lipo packs, just wondered if you could check my calculations? If they're right, I know I've cracked it and can easily work out voltage and Ah myself for Building a Lipo system.

So, for the bike I was looking at building, I wanted to go down the 48v (roughly) route.

I found these;

ZIPPY Flightmax 8400mAh 4S2P 30C LiFePo4 Pack

Capacity: 8400mAh
Voltage: 4S2P / 13.2V
Discharge: 30C Constant / 40C Burst
Weight: 1026g (including wire, plug & case)
Dimensions: 150mm x 52mm x 70mm
Balance Plug: JST-XH
Discharge Plug: 5.5mm Bullet-Connector

So, If I ran 4 of these packs in series I would end up with 52.8V at 8.4Ah capacity? (Serial keeps capacity the same as just 1 battery, but X Voltage up).
If I ran 4 of these packs in parallel I would end up with 13.2V at 33.6Ah capacity.
If I ran these 'packs' in '8S2P' (Two 'groups' of two packs in serial, groups connected in parallel) I would get 26.4V at 16.8Ah capacity?

If I've got these calculations right, I'll be a very very happy man!

Cheers,

So,

 

[hydro-one]

What u got there in the list looks good. I would go with lyen for controller, in the for sale section. . hes local to SF area. Get the 4110 mosfets. Cellman for the a123 pack with bms and charger. , fit to triangle, or boxes. Rear 9x7 for sure, disc upgrade for sure. For forks, I would go with a fox or marzocchi fork. a good one expect to pay 3-500. Check out MTBR.com for reviews on mountian bike parts.

You might check out member iiliad(sp) he helped out member extremegreenmachines with a bmc v3 build in SF area, he builds ebikes, and im sure he could be of assistance to you.

Mike, I wish i had SF weather, winnipeg mb

I woundt recommend lipo for your first battery. Unless your going to put alot of time into reading , and doing it right with harness and 14s charger etc. parellel charging is ok if you dont mind a few puffed cells, and a bit of KFF (flahburns to fingers, most fun at night when it also blinds you for 2 mintutes!!) I dont think its for electronics newbies. judging my friends which are proably alot dumber than you!!

 

[elliothaughin]

Yeah, I'm thinking I might just chicken out on the batteries to start with and go with a Ping 60V 30Ah battery for the first year.

http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-21/60V-30AH-V2.5-LiFePO4/Detail

 

[spinningmagnets]

The smallest dimension on that battery looks like 6" (about the same as a dollar bill). If you put that in the frame triangle it may be somewhat wide when pedaling. Perhaps mock-up a cardboard-and-duct-tape box the same size to verify its acceptable for you.

The only place for a hub-system that powerful is the rear wheel. But if you use a rear-hub, and then the battery won't fit in the frame triangle...putting the battery on the back will make the bike awfully tail-heavy (very bad at 30+ MPH)

At 60V you may want to consider the 2807 instead of the 2806. 60V (i'm guessing) should easily put you over 30-MPH (since 48V does about 27-MPH), and a battery that big shouldn't have any voltage sag problems. Either way, best of luck...sounds fun!

 

[newb]

here is another post for your review, about 6 posts down you will find a list you may want to reference

welcome and good luck

Ebikes for Dummies

 

[dogman dan]

If you are going to look at lipo, bear this in mind, 14s fully charged is 59.5v. So 16s won't work with a 48v controller. Some get away with 15s, and some blow controllers on 15s. It's right at the limit for most 48v contrllers to run 14s lipo.

Same thing for the ping 60v. It's gonna be much more than 60v fully charged, and is gonna blow a 48v controller.

I can't stress this too much, ride somebodies 48v (nominal) bike before you start building a bike to run on 60v with a 2806 motor for the first try. That would be a lot of bike for a newb. Are you an experienced rider of motorcycles and bicycles? If so, then maybe not too much. But if you don't have tons of two wheel riding under your belt, you may be headed to the E room with even a lame 25 mph 36v bike.

You may find the mundane 48v 2807 bike that goes 27 mph a bit fast. You WILL find the electra townie uncomfortable at speeds over 30 mph, unless the roads are perfect, or you are on a race track. To blast 35 mph on rough roads for more than a few miles beats you up, and beats the bike up. So for that you may want full suspension.

My advice for a self described ebike idiot, is still the same. An ebikekit 2807-- 20 amp controller kit, and a 48v 15 ah pingbattery. Ride a thousand miles or so, then start modifying stuff when you are not an idiot anymore. This kit will only set you back about a thou, plus the bike. Leaving much money for the really cool stuff later.

 

[neptronix]

ZIPPY Flightmax 8400mAh 4S2P 30C LiFePo4 Pack

Capacity: 8400mAh
Voltage: 4S2P / 13.2V
Discharge: 30C Constant / 40C Burst
Weight: 1026g (including wire, plug & case)
Dimensions: 150mm x 52mm x 70mm
Balance Plug: JST-XH
Discharge Plug: 5.5mm Bullet-Connector

Look at the reviews and discussions of those packs and let us know if you are still interested in them afterwards.

 

[neptronix]

So, If I ran 4 of these packs in series I would end up with 52.8V at 8.4Ah capacity? (Serial keeps capacity the same as just 1 battery, but X Voltage up).
If I ran 4 of these packs in parallel I would end up with 13.2V at 33.6Ah capacity.
If I ran these 'packs' in '8S2P' (Two 'groups' of two packs in serial, groups connected in parallel) I would get 26.4V at 16.8Ah capacity?

Yes, your calculations are correct.
However, 26v will not get you anywhere quick

36v is really the minimum for eBikes if you are using a hub motor. Anything below that is dreadfully slow.

 

[elliothaughin]

Thanks for the input guys! I was more just using that pack as an example to see if I've got my head around the maths. Just sent a message to cellman to see if he can just build whatever A123 packs I need to power this baby complete with BMS, Charger(s) etc.

Hi cellman,

This summer I'll be building my first eBike with a good budget.
I've been looking at batteries but realise that what I want is to get everything built into the frame if possible with the maximum aH I can get.

How much would you charge to provide a complete power 'kit' that plugs straight into a decent controller.

The pack(s) can be no more than 2 X A123 Wide (By the looks of the frame dimensions). If you could place them 'offset', that would be even better (so 2 rows, with one row sitting in the 'grooves' of the other row).

I'm looking for around 48V,

What would you recommend?

The idea is to keep the voltage around 48V, then ram it with as much capacity as possible, the end product being a pack, or bunch of packs complete with charger(s), BMS, etc ready to simply plug into the controller and mount on the board. The bike I'll be using is the Electra 'Townie' (Here's the thread on the discussion so-far).

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25600

There's a good example of someone using Lipos in the frame of this bike here:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23701

I'd be after something similar, but with A123 packs at about 48V with as much capacity as I can possibly cram into it.

So, if you could give me some prices for options I'd be really happy!

Cheers,

Elliot

Hopefully If he has a read through this thread he'll get what I'm after and work out a good solution. The budget is generous, so if I could end up with A123s at about 48V with like 20ah-40aH capacity I'd be a very very happy guy!

 

[elliothaughin]

Just called someone at 'Helens Cycles' in Santa Monica.
He's going to measure the frame thickness and size of the main triangle part for me, very very helpful staff there!

Once I've got the dimensions cellman will know what he's got to work with

(http://helenscycles.com/product/electra-townie-balloon-8d-61398-1.htm) - That's the townie balloon over at Helen's, again, great staff there.