Ebike: Bike & Motor recomendations

[az crusin]

Hi All,

I'm definitely set on putting together an e-bike, one for me and one for the wife. These bikes will be ridden on pavement 90% of the time and if it is offroad it would be a light, groomed dirt trail. Here in Phx, AZ everything is pretty flat, rarely would we see any hills. We don't own any bikes right now and haven't owned anything in the past that wasn't a junk department store bike. I want to stay away from those this time around.

I'm looking for recommendations for both a type of bike and what motor/controller/battery to use. I know the combinations are endless, hopefully we can get some help to get us in the right direction. I would like a bike built for speed, something 40-45mph (at least I think I "want" something this fast). My longest range would be a commute to work at 20 miles round trip and we both have the option to charge at work. For her she doesn't want/need so high of a top speed so 30-35mph would be fine. She would need the same range, 20-25mi.

So from the type of riding we would do, what type of bike would be good (mtb, 29'er, Hybrid, etc)? 2nd, should we be looking at bikes with 26", 700c, 29" or 20" wheels? Is there much difference in speed and efficiency between them? We both want a more upright position so a road bike/flat bars is not what we are looking for. As for number of speeds/gearing (27, 24, 21, single speed), no idea on what I need or would want.

I was looking at some hybrid bikes from bikes direct with 700c tires, front suspension and disc brakes. Something like this http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/rover3.htm. What do you guys think about this type of bike? I'm not dead set on a 700c tire, seems like there are more 26" options in the world of ebikes? The wife likes this bike too but she thinks she would like something with a 26" wheel instead. Any suggestions from the bikes at bikes direct?

For motors I have looked at the BMC motors and just found a link to cell mans mac motors and batteries. I don't know what the difference is between Mac and BMC or if I should be looking at something else. For BMC I was looking at the V2/V4S. For Mack the 1000W or 500W.

We are open to all advice and suggestions. I say the budget for each bike would be $2,000 USD give or take a few hundred. The less expensive the better, I don;t want to spend that much if I don't have to. I'll pay what's needed as long as it meets the criteria and is reliable. Less maintenance is a plus too. Thanks everyone for the help!

Type of bike (mtb, hybrid, etc)
Wheel size (700c, 26", 20", etc)
Motor brand and model
Battery type and model
Controller
Any other info needed?

 

[mdd0127]

I have the perfect bike for you. Done, tested, reliable, and insanely fast.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=37319



I'm in Camp Verde and come down to phoenix here and there. If you want to come up and see what a 40mph capable bike feels like, you're welcome to. Bring pads and a helmet.

 

[motomech]

Wow! 45 to 50 mph-him, 30 to 35-her, couple of speed demons

Are you sure? 50mph is right up there with the fastest riders here, full helmet and maybe some amour.
And at 35 mph, she will probably be the fastest female rider here.
I must be a wus, 25 to 30 mph feels fast to me, but then again, I wouldn't want to be in an accident and be sued.
And then there is the Law. I have a home in Tucson[seldom get there ]and the local laws are restrictive.
Get clocked over 20 mph and it's ticket time. The Cops will give you 25 mph or so, but to consistently go fast faster, I would have to register as a moped[impossible actually, as I couldn't get a bicycle insured].
Amberwolf, a moderator here, lives in Phoenix and will be by, so he can elaborate on this.

I can tell you one thing, those kind of speeds will require a Direct drive motor and a LOT of battery. No geared motor[well maybe hers].
To get a bike to handle those kind of high speeds and the kit to do it is going to run more than $2000 ea., IMO.

 

[az crusin]

Well I'm not 100% sure I want to go 45mph and she really doesn't know if she wants to go 35mph. We've never had bikes at that speed. I have a Harley but that is made to go highway speeds, I'm sure a bike at that speed "feels" faster. I'm not planning on keeping up with traffic while commuting, I'd like to have the extra speed for short burst and maybe go somewhere safe where I could go faster now and again.

If that type of Speed will cost over $2,000 then I would probably lower my expectations. I know she probably wants her bike in the $1500 and lower range. Thanks for the inputs, keep them coming Hopefully by the end of this thread I will have a better idea of what I REALLY need/want.

 

[motomech]

Yeah, like you said before, lots of way to get there, but you need to need decide where you want to go.
If you are not young and bold and commuting every day, you don't need those kind of speeds.
Trust me, I have ridden motorcycles all my like, including sportbikes up to 1300cc and 25 to 30 mph on a bicycle feels fast and is reasonably fast for city riding.
I don't mind the low speed limit in Tucson because I pedal for exercize and tucson has a very nice network of bike lanes and trails.
When I'm home, I ride for fun and don't have to be anywhere, so the fun is taking the routes where there is no traffic, so 24 mph is fine with me.
Think about splitting the difference and shoot for 25 to 30 mph. Get a decent mountain bike with suspension, a moderate range motor[i like geared and many here like the laRGER geared motors like the MAC] and some decent batteries. Many recent builds here along those lines, just start reading.
At those speeds[power levels around 1000 watts], it's much easier to mount the mount the motor and match the bikes gearing so you can keep pedaling near or at top speed.

Or at least, think about doing one build[hers]along those lines before you tackle yours. You will learn alot and have a better idea of what you want afterwards.

 

[dogman dan]

You might want to look into Phoenix AZ motorized bike law before you take the plunge. For off road fun though, you could hardly do better than to buy that bike. He's got his shit together as a bike builder for sure! Price seems high, but not for that!

Maybe you want 3 bikes then. For the commuters, look for decent full suspension bikes that still have room in the triangle for a battery.
This type, but cheaper price. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ventana-El-Fuego-26-full-suspension-mtn-bike-medium-17-/330712525045?pt=Mountain_Bikes&hash=item4d0000a8f5

Not this. No room for a battery in the frame here. http://www.ebay.com/itm/GARY-FISHER-JOSHUA-F3-Full-Suspension-Mountain-Bike-Large-21-Deore-XT-Atac-/290695525802?pt=Mountain_Bikes&hash=item43aecdb5aa

Rear humbotor, since you want to ride any dirt.

Then build for 30 mph, but ride legal. AZ cops will getcha. Too bad you don't live in the sticks where cops don't care. The other nice commuters option are the longtails, yuba mundo, big dummy, or extracycle. Longtails won't fit on a bus bike rack if you break down though.

For slower, near legal speed bikes, the 48v 15 ah pingbattery, and 48v triangle shaped battery from Emissions free are the standards. If you like, you can go lipo, and save weight and space, allowing longer range batteries to be carried. But lifepo4 is the safe and easy route for commuters.

BTW,a solid commuters setup for 20 miles typicaly costs about $800-1200, including racks, panniers, better tires, etc. Woops, you just went back to the cheap bikes. You might look at the Genesis frame at wallmart, similar in form to the one I linked at ebay. Then upgrade stuff later, better crankset, new front shocks, etc. Or if you don't need suspension with young lower backs, maybe look at 7speed beach cruisers in the sub $300 price range.

 

[Drunkskunk]

If you want to go 45mph for 20-30 miles, and want something you can take off road on groomed trails, you need a motorbike. A normal bicycle is built to handle speeds up to 20mph. Unless you're a Lycra wearing Cycle Jocky, you're not going to be riding a bike above those speeds for any extended amount of time. And if you are, its going to be a specalized bike like a Down hiller, or aCF race bike.
Your normal rider is going to do 8 - 12 mph on an upright bike. 20mph on a bicycle is flying for most people.

So yes, some of us are crazy and have built huge power bikes that can do more than 40mph. We are also crazy. So far no one has died. But we're pushing bicycles far past their normal breaking point, often making our own parts to solve problems no one had thought of when designing a bicycle.

I don't want to scare you off, I'm just put this in perspective. A 20mph 25 mile range is a lot of Ebike. That point often gets lost here because we all are so very nuts. Its two and a half times the range of your average Ebike. We can even advise what it will take to push it up to 30mph. To push the bike further, you need experiance.

 

[az crusin]

ok, great advice so far.

So if 40mph requires a lot of experience and modifying parts, which I don't want to do, then what kits/setup do people recommend to get to 30 mph or more/less? Looking for motor/battery/controller recommendations.

Seems like the MAC kits from Cell Man seem popular, 500/1000W system. How about the BMC setups (V2S/V4S/V4C)?, how does that compare to the MAC setup? Are there other kits/setups that I should be looking at?

 

[Ykick]

I run a satisfying 2kW into 9C direct drive hub motor on quality full suspension frame with hydro brakes. Able to cruise slightly above 30MPH flat but that's really too much. These are supposed to be bicycles and 15-25MPH coupled with added weight is enough stress for anything running less than impeccable quality components.

If I were assembling today I would have to take a good long look at the Mac geared hub motors. Shaves a few pounds compared to my current 9C and might have a bit more grunt off the line? But I can't complain about the smoothness, reliability and simplicity of the 9C DD. I think they're now called Mxxus or similar?

Do you have any motorcycle experience? If not, definitely be cautious about over shooting the limits of your experience sharing the road with vehicular traffic.

 

[dogman dan]

Fast bikes are fun, but also crazy. The one I built for the race track in Tuscon could go 47 mph. And it could wear out a tire in 15 miles. The tire would look ok from the outside, but be shredded from extreme heat on the inside.

Moped rims and tires are the latest trend as a result. Mac and BMC are roughly equivilant. I couldn't say which brand is more rugged. I went the direct drive route because of their ability to tolerate heat better. I run a flock of 9 continent motors, in various speed windings.

 

[amberwolf]

Which part of Phoenix are you in?

The roads in some parts are bad enough I wouldn't ride typical bicycle parts on them at even 25-30MPH without some good and probably expensive suspension on there, or you could either lose control or break the wheels or other bike parts. (speaking from experience even at 20MPH, but with heavier bikes than most) Downhill stuff is probably tough enough, but not the average cheap bikes.

Alternately, you can build using moped or motorcycle parts for critical pieces. It may be cheaper, but it will probably be notably heavier, and it will likely require some custom building to make it all work together.


Another gotcha, as Dogman points out, is the AZ laws. If you ride faster than 20MPH, you are no longer a bicycle-class vehicle...so if you get stopped, it could get expensive. AFAIK ebikes haven't been stopped and ticketed like this yet, but it's not that uncommon for gas bikes to be stopped and ticketed for "no registration, license, or insurance". Since it's impossible to register a bicycle, motorized or not (I've inquired about it, and even though there is actually a law requiring it in Phoenix, there's no department to handle it and they have no idea how to do it), you would never be able to get around the first ticket. I haven't found any accident-type insurance company that would insure a bicycle, motorized or not, so the third ticket would be inevitable. The second ticket could be avoided if you do actually have an M-class license, though.

Down in Tucson, the police seem to really hate on motorized bikes, from what I have heard from riders down there--again, it's the gas ones, but they could do it to ebikes, too, under the same laws.

It's fine if you don't care about the law, but I thought you should know what you might be getting into. It's why I ride at only 20MPH and under, though the bike certainly *can* go a lot faster if I have to get out of someone's way or otherwise avoid an accident, and I have had to use the ability more than once!

 

[Drunkskunk]

MAC is a clone of the BMC. Possably made on the same production line. the parts and gear sets are interchangable. Good torque motors and a version should be able to hit 30mph peak at 52 volts.
but in AZ geared suffer in the heat. a Direct drive may be better if you plan off road. Dogman and Amberwolf are the experts on AZ, but I know my geared motor suffers in Texas heat.
A 2806 motor from Nine continents (A.K.A. a 10X6) shoudl also top at 30mph at 53 volts. its going to be down on torque by 20 pounds or so, but will have the internal mass to survive the heat better.


But my recomendation is a 2808. A slow motor that will take 72 volts to hit 30mph, but will handle the heat better and survive off road better.


For bikes, something like a Trek 3 or 4 series. Not to recomend the brand, but the style. diamond hard tail, full disk brakes. Might actualy be easier if the rear has V brakes. Custom parts are sometimes needed for rear disks with hub motors. On road, its ok to carry the battery in a rear rack (well, if you have to) But off road, you'll need them in the triangle, or close to the COG as possable to make the bike stable.

 

[az crusin]

Looks like I'm on the right track with MAC/BMC motors if I want a gear motor setup. I see there some fans of DD motors here, which I haven't looked at yet. I'm sure that's been an endless debate on here. I saw a popular post on here recommending the eBay DD kit, 48v 1000w motor made by Golden Motor. The price is right on that. Might be a good way to get my feet wet into ebikes. Then I also saw the Crystalyte HS3540 and the Phoenix II 7240 kits. Much difference between these 3 kits?

DD vs geared motors, dare I ask?

 

[az crusin]

I forgot to mention I did try my 1st ebike yesterday. It was a 220W DD using a 36V 10Ah battery. It went about 18-20MPH. It definitely felt faster than I thought. It wasn't a high quality bike, a comfort bike with front suspension. On very flat ground it felt slow. On a little bit of rougher pavement the bike felt almost fast enough just because it was sketchy.

In the end though I feel like I will want more than 20mph, maybe 30-35 will be just fine for me. I can now see that 45+mph may be extreme. And a MTB with at least front suspension if not full suspension is what I'll look at.

 

[mdd0127]

Come up and take a spin on a real bike!