eCar - Hybridization

[DrkAngel]

16hp - 10kwh, seems to be about the proper power range.

possibly , but you notice that the 16hp gen set you originally pointed to was actually rated as 10kw "peak" and 8kw continuous.

Also it quoted "10hrs run time at 50% capacity" with a 8.3 gal fuel tank. Presumably representing its max efficiency ?
So, if you believe that that 50% represents 4kw continuous running, and maybe that 4kw could maintain a road speed of 40mph (??)... then that would represent range of 400+ miles....but at a fuel consumption of about 50mpg
( remembering that at 4kw you are not going to be able to recharge your battery's whilst maintaining 40mph)

I guess i fail to see the point, since there are many ICE cars that can better that 50 mpg whilst giving a much higher performance than a steady 40mph !

I'll try to make an alternate view, based on your figures - estimates.
I think my offering falls within your parameters.

E Mini w/35kwh battery
65mph = 7.5kwh usage?
3.5kwh for 10 hours - car battery
4kwh for 10 hours - Generator "idling" at 50%

equals ... 650 miles non-stop

650 miles / 8.3 gal gas = 78.3 "mpg" (plus initial charge)

My original premise was that a generator could be used to greatly extend the range of an eCar.
650 miles should cover one days travel for 99% of Most "trips?"? Range could be "unlimited" if you used generator at closer to "constant" capacity, and stopped for gas every 4 - 5 hours, someone might have to go to the bathroom anyhow!

Or ... run on electric @ 65 mph for 100 miles, (leaving plenty of battery for hills, passing, etc.), then engage generator at "constant" capacity, to cruise at 65 while adding some charge back to battery.

 

[Hillhater]

That a little better but,..where did the 7.5 Kw @ 65 mph come from ??
According to the data you linked , the Emini typically gets 100-110 miles per 35Kwhr charge with a claimed maximum of 156 miles.
Those figures would not suggest a 7.5Kw cruise consumption..nearer to double infact.

On another site where the author has done exactly this "range extender" on an BMW EV, he claims that his 16Kw generator provides enough power to run at 65 mph. (using an efficient DC generator !)
http://www.evdrive.com/RangeExtender.html

Further, if you look at the data for the Tesla roadster (possibly the EV with the most road time ?) its 56Kwhr pack is reported to give a range anywhere between 100 and 300 miles.
Lets say it will go 250 miles at a steady speed of 65 mph ( optomistic but..).
That would mean a run time of 3.85 hours ...
.....and a power consumption of 14.56 Kw @ 65mph.

 

[DrkAngel]

Please note that there is a substantial difference between an induction motor and a permanent magnet motor.
A permanent magnet motor uses permanent magnets and a "field" of electromagnets, typically created by "windings" around an armature.
An induction motor uses 2 fields of electromagnets, 1 around the armature and a 2nd in place of the permanent magnets. The advantage is that by applying more electricity to the second field, the power of the motor can be amplified. Allowing smaller, lighter, more powerful motors! However, this does tend to make them considerably less efficient, less m/kwh!

Generators, also can use a form of "induction" type "motor" (the actual generator). This is most common in small lightweight powerful generators. In some, as much as 40% of the electricity produced is used to energize the electromagnets, and is therefore "wasted".

If you want maximum efficiency, best m/kwh, use a permanent magnet motor, and a permanent magnet generator!

m/kwh = Miles per Kilowatt Hour

 

[spinningmagnets]

The off-road 6WD truck I pictured in the hydraulic-drive thread is pure series-drive. An engine drives a hydraulic pump, and hydrualic motors drive each wheel. The benefit is the variable stroke pumps acts as a CVT, and the differentials are eliminated to lower the CG, as these trucks are easy to tip over. They are low-speed, but in that application, it is not a detriment.

For an electric drivetrain, I have to agree that a pure series-electric is inefficient compared to a mechanical connection due to electric conversion losses. Where a 'hybrid' comes in is to add a battery, and configure it as a "plug-in" hybrid, where the battery is large enough that 98.6% of trips around your home are electric-only (living close to work, perhaps the grocery store?), leaving the on-board gasoline/diesel-engine to come on during rare low-battery events.

A pure series-electric would be to take a Prius and remove the battery pack. It would run directly off of the small-engine/large-generator, but of course it would have VERY poor performance and worse fuel consumption than a conventional gasoline/diesel economy car.

I very much like Hymotions 'plug-in hybrid' conversion of Priuses (Pri-ii?) which swaps-in a much higher aH-pack. If you have one, and almost never see the engine fire up due to added battery range...you begin to wonder if it would be worthwhile to shed the weight and bulk of the engine by moving it to a trailer?

I think it would be a good thing if I had a 220V gen-set on a compact trailer in the back yard, whether I ever attached it to the Hymotion-Prius or not...

 

[DrkAngel]

Also, kind of handy to have trailer-generator sitting around for emergencies, power outages, back woods projects, etc.

8 - 10kw should power gas appliances - furnace w/blower, hot water heater as well as refrigerator, microwave, TV, lights, etc.

I used to live in the boonies and found the best alternative electric application was to:
1. turn off breaker
2. plug generator into circuit using extension cord adapted with 2 male ends (multiple cords for multiple circuits) I used 2 exterior plugs, each with their own circuit.

Most important! Make sure powered circuits have breakers turned off! Or when power is restored, you're in for a very-pretty-dangerous light show of sparks! ... maybe?

 

[x88x]

How about instead of a trailer you had a swap out section of the battery? During normal operation the vehicle is a pure EV with, say, a 100mi range. Then if you need more range, you take out, say, 20% of the battery pack and swap it for a small generator and fuel tank. Put in sensors so the control electronics can detect the change and automatically switch over to series-hybrid mode when the generator is in it.

IMO the plug in series hybrid concept is really just a stopgap measure between pure ICE vehicles and pure EVs, accomplishing (ideally) three goals:
1) Build EV manufacturing/support infrastructure while using existing fuel infrastructure.
2) Provide transition path for consumers and fuel/charging infrastructures from ICE to EV.
3) Provide financial middle ground with the cheap ICE engine offsetting the cost of a much more expensive battery pack.

 

[DrkAngel]

That a little better but,..where did the 7.5 Kw @ 65 mph come from ??

Based on your estimate of 4kw to maintain 40 mph. (Factoring in, higher wind resistance.)

According to the data you linked , the Emini typically gets 100-110 miles per 35Kwhr charge with a claimed maximum of 156 miles.

I would expect that continuous highway travel would get much better mileage than average city\highway\etc.

On another site where the author has done exactly this "range extender" on an BMW EV, he claims that his 16Kw generator provides enough power to run at 65 mph. (using an efficient DC generator !)
http://www.evdrive.com/RangeExtender.html

He does not mention if the generator is running at full capability, very likely ... not! Merely that it is capable of maintaining expressway speed!

Also, that EV build uses an "induction" motor. Which means that it uses an inefficient electromagnet motor, rather than an efficient permanent magnet motor. Their induction motor has the benefit of more power, smaller size and lighter weight ... all, at the expense of using, (wasting), more power.

(Previous article, from your link, Toyota Rav4EV Upgrade project http://www.evdrive.com/Rav4ev.html Specifies -"The electrical load travelling down a level freeway at 60MPH is ~10kW" - and that from a non aerodynamic SUV!)

Further, if you look at the data for the Tesla roadster (possibly the EV with the most road time ?) its 56Kwhr pack is reported to give a range anywhere between 100 and 300 miles.
Lets say it will go 250 miles at a steady speed of 65 mph ( optomistic but..).
That would mean a run time of 3.85 hours ...
.....and a power consumption of 14.56 Kw @ 65mph.

Please remember, the Tesla Roadster is not designed for efficiency. It is a full blown sports car!
It "can accelerate from 0 to 60 mph (0 to 97 km/h) in 3.7 seconds", has a top speed of 125 mph and has giant, wide performance tires, ... not your typical "economy" car.

 

[Hillhater]

That a little better but,..where did the 7.5 Kw @ 65 mph come from ??

Based on your estimate of 4kw to maintain 40 mph. (Factoring in, higher wind resistance.)

My... "40 mph (??) " .. was not an estimate , it was a random figure with the "(??)" denoting that i doubted if it were possible.
I seriously doubt a 2000lb car can achieve anything like that on 4Kw !
From personal experience with a 300lb go kart with 7Kw (10hp), you need a very long straight even to reach a 60mph maximum on flat ground.

I think it would be unrealistic to base a range estimate on a purely basic "Cruise" consumption anyway. How much of your travel is actually on Highways, and how many of those are flat , steady speed, not halts, etc.
But, if you feel that is the type of use you will have then ok, but i would do more research into actual power demand before i invested in a generator hoping it will keep me moving.
I am highly suspicious of the range figures quoted by EV manufacturers and there is enough feedback around to know they certainly do not represent "real life" use.

 

[DrkAngel]

That a little better but,..where did the 7.5 Kw @ 65 mph come from ??

Based on your estimate of 4kw to maintain 40 mph. (Factoring in, higher wind resistance.)

My... "40 mph (??) " .. was not an estimate , it was a random figure with the "(??)" denoting that i doubted if it were possible. ...
I think it would be unrealistic to base a range estimate on a purely basic "Cruise" consumption anyway. How much of your travel is actually on Highways, ...

"So, if you believe that that 50% represents 4kw continuous running, and maybe that 4kw could maintain a road speed of 40mph (??)... then that would represent range of 400+ miles..."
Sorry, since you listed specific figures as your example, I assumed that you thought your figures to be realistic.

I merely took your figure of 4kw = 40mph (??) and made the reasonable comparison of 7.5kw = 65 mph?, take note, I mirrored it with a similar ?.

As for being unrealistic about using "Cruise" consumption-Highways?
My entire purpose in posting this thread was to offer a possible solution to the trip limitations of an eCar, which is typically, highway cruising mileage!
I doubt anyone could possibly drive 650 miles, continuously, through "stop and go" city traffic!
Maybe a taxi cab driver on a triple shift?

 

[Hillhater]

Sorry for the confusion, but i was being "generous" in estimating speed potential.
Personally i doubt 4Kw would let you drive at 20mph !.. which would mean a range of 200miles and a mpg of 25 mpg !!
.. thats why i suggested 40 mph as a Max estimate.
Ultimate range is not the issue to me, its the economics...costs and mpg equivalents.
since most of the EV cars seem to struggle to make 150 or even 100 miles, the "range extender" would be necessary for any journey beyond 50 miles distant...not just long highway trips. That and the fact that we have a lot of hill around here ! Hence my preference for a "average" power demand figure when choosing a gen set. for the extender.

 

[DrkAngel]

Various eCars show that much better kw consumption is possible:

Listed is test cruise speed and the measured kw required.

Toyota Rav4EV 60MPH is ~10kW
http://www.evdrive.com/Rav4ev.html
Not bad for a SUV

Honda Civic 70mph is ~9kW (60 mph might be 7.5kw)

 

[Gordo]

I was happily reading this fairytale while remembering the basic problem with small scale hybrid vehicles. You use twice the fuel of a conventional ICE vehicle. This is the loss of conversion from chemical to mechanical to electric to mechanical. NET LOSS 50%. But it does get better. Instead of using your battery pack to run your hub motor, use it to convert all of the free energy in water to H and O2. Burn the H and O2 gas in your ICE which powers your generator to drive your hubmotor. Maybe do some "gazintaz" (math) before you spend any money on this set up. You may end up with KW's in = <10% KW's out?

 

[DrkAngel]

I was happily reading this fairytale while remembering the basic problem with small scale hybrid vehicles. You use twice the fuel of a conventional ICE vehicle. This is the loss of conversion from chemical to mechanical to electric to mechanical. NET LOSS 50%. But it does get better. Instead of using your battery pack to run your hub motor, use it to convert all of the free energy in water to H and O2. Burn the H and O2 gas in your ICE which powers your generator to drive your hubmotor. Maybe do some "gazintaz" (math) before you spend any money on this set up. You may end up with KW's in = <10% KW's out?

A gas generator that powers an electric motor is classified as a "series hybrid". One such vehicle would be the Chevrolet Volt, when it drops into gas only mode.

Official predictions rate mpg between 30 and 50, dependent on driver and driving conditions. {240 - 400 per 8 gal. fill-up.)

Based on the carefully determined factory testing, in gas only mode, the Volt is anticipated to deliver 300 miles, from an 8 gallon gas tank.

This means that gas, to mechanical, to electric, to mechanical, will still produce 38 mpg!

That is better than most ICE cars!

 

[todayican2]

I dont get it, heres the last word on the fairytale front, highest MPG for a car that can be purchased today inside the US, Prius, 50, Hybrid.
Granted its not perfect, and there is a LOT of improvements to be done, but its a path to be traveled.

I wonder if the place Orville and Wilbur hung out after a hard days work on their Aeroplane had guys saying "Fly? Its simply not possible, have you seen what happens to a stone when dropped?"

I believe that a mixed use car (for me 75% highway and 25% city) will benefit from hybridization enough to build one. I could be wrong, but the proof will be in the pudding.

 

[DrkAngel]

Another "series hybrid"

Electric Car Conversion: The Amazing 75-MPG Hybrid Car

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Transportation/1979-07-01/Electric-Car-Conversion.aspx

Powered by a lawn mower engine, into a generator, into an electric motor, buffered with 4 SLA batteries. ... 75 mpg

 

[Hillhater]

We have been there before,.. and even the original author admitted that it was not realistic !
DA.. i do believe you will be able to cruise a car at 60 mph on 7 Kw ... in the correct (perfect ?) conditions.
IE , flat road , following wind, dry weather, no stops, etc etc.
...but that is not the real world. We have hills, corners, wind, wet weather, junctions, other trafic, etc etc.
You seem determined to convince yourself of the lowest possible power demand, rather than establish a practical size generator to keep you rolling beyond battery range
If you want a gen set to keep you going when your batteries are run down , then the figure you should be looking for is an AVERAGE power consumption over a 60 mile run in one hour, and even that may leave you struggling to pull away from standstill at that uphill stop light you had not expected !.

 

[DrkAngel]

We have been there before,.. and even the original author admitted that it was not realistic !
DA.. i do believe you will be able to cruise a car at 60 mph on 7 Kw ... in the correct (perfect ?) conditions.
IE , flat road , following wind, dry weather, no stops, etc etc.
...but that is not the real world. We have hills, corners, wind, wet weather, junctions, other trafic, etc etc.
You seem determined to convince yourself of the lowest possible power demand, rather than establish a practical size generator to keep you rolling beyond battery range
If you want a gen set to keep you going when your batteries are run down , then the figure you should be looking for is an AVERAGE power consumption over a 60 mile run in one hour, and even that may leave you struggling to pull away from standstill at that uphill stop light you had not expected !.

You seem to forget that my entire purpose is, merely, to add range, to an eCar, for the occasion of trips.

I am merely attempting to determine the average kw usage for extended highway travel. Then match the most compatible generator.

Hills will draw from battery, on the way up, and add to the battery, on the way down.
I am talking about an eCar, with a 100 mile+ battery reserve. Any extended trip, the majority of battery would be kept in reserve, not fully drained then switch to generator, that would be foolish, albeit frugal.

Stuck in traffic? Not on a trip!...
If I want to wander around in stop and go, city traffic ... for 3 hours, ... thanks to moderate acceleration, 0% waste while idling and regenerative braking ... no generator needed!

Any place I go, more than 10 miles, is on a highway, or expressway.

 

[Hillhater]

Another "estimate" for you ....
using the EMini data of 35Kwhr battery and claimed range of 150miles ( I have not seen any claims of more than that )
so assuming it can average 50mph, for 3 hours to reach that 150 miles, then it will be using 11Kw on AVERAGE at 50 mph.
If your range extender can feed 4Kw continuously ( as previously discussed), the battery will have to supply 7Kw (11-4 =7)
giving an extended range of 5hrs ( 35Kwhr / 7Kw =5 hrs), which at 50 mph is 250 miles.
beyond that , you are running on generator only
Based on the previous generator consumption of 8.3 gals for 10 hrs, you will have used 4.15 gals in 250 miles = 60 mpg ( plus the initial charge !)
Note: in my part of the world, that 35Kwhr charge would cost $6.30 ..($0.18 per Kwhr) or the equivalent of 2 gals of gas
So the total real mpg is nearer 40 mpg ( 250 miles on 6 + gals = 41mpg )

 

[DrkAngel]

Another "estimate" for you ....
using the EMini data of 35Kwhr battery and claimed range of 150miles ( I have not seen any claims of more than that )
so assuming it can average 50mph, for 3 hours to reach that 150 miles, then it will be using 11Kw on AVERAGE at 50 mph.
If your range extender can feed 4Kw continuously ( as previously discussed), the battery will have to supply 7Kw (11-4 =7)
giving an extended range of 5hrs ( 35Kwhr / 7Kw =5 hrs), which at 50 mph is 250 miles.
beyond that , you are running on generator only
Based on the previous generator consumption of 8.3 gals for 10 hrs, you will have used 4.15 gals in 250 miles = 60 mpg ( plus the initial charge !)
Note: in my part of the world, that 35Kwhr charge would cost $6.30 ..($0.18 per Kwhr) or the equivalent of 2 gals of gas
So the total real mpg is nearer 40 mpg ( 250 miles on 6 + gals = 41mpg )

Generators typically run at the full capacity of the power draw, until their limit is exceeded. (Maximum output can be regulated down to an efficient degree, typically by a set screw on the governor.) On an eCar it would only draw from the battery after the generator capacity is exceeded.
With the generator regulated down to the "continuous" 8kw output, battery draw would be 3kw, extending drive time to about 12 hrs. @ 50 mph = 600 miles. 8 gal refill every 4 - 5 hours necessary. But MPG drops down towards 30 mpg.
Still, much cheaper than a second vehicle, just for trips.

After further review I can no longer champion the Mini E, for 2 reasons"
1. It uses an induction motor instead of a more efficient permanent magnet motor.
2. It is not slated for production, it is to be relegated to the realm of a R&D testbed.

Hillhater - Electric price sounds very high. Check with your local electric company. Most will offer electricity at a greatly reduced price during "off peak" hours, (typically 11pm - 7am.) Charging during these reduced usage hours puts no strain on the "grid", and might save you 50% cost. (They will supply a special meter that charges slightly more during day, but much less during "off peak")

 

[Gordo]

I was happily reading this fairytale while remembering the basic problem with small scale hybrid vehicles. You use twice the fuel of a conventional ICE vehicle. This is the loss of conversion from chemical to mechanical to electric to mechanical. NET LOSS 50%. But it does get better. Instead of using your battery pack to run your hub motor, use it to convert all of the free energy in water to H and O2. Burn the H and O2 gas in your ICE which powers your generator to drive your hubmotor. Maybe do some "gazintaz" (math) before you spend any money on this set up. You may end up with KW's in = <10% KW's out?

A gas generator that powers an electric motor is classified as a "series hybrid". One such vehicle would be the Chevrolet Volt, when it drops into gas only mode.

Official predictions rate mpg between 30 and 50, dependent on driving conditions. {240 - 400 per 8 gal. fill-up.)

Based on the carefully determined factory testing, in gas only mode, the Volt is anticipated to deliver 300 miles, from an 8 gallon gas tank.

This means that gas, to mechanical, to electric, to mechanical, will still produce 38 mpg!

That is better than most ICE cars!

Is it really? My wife's Miata driven at posted highway speeds + will get 36mpg to 42mpg.
In 1968 I prepared, competed for and won the BMC Cup for 60.1mpg with an Austin Healey Sprite. This was on a trip of highway combined with unimproved gravel secondary roads. It was a 6 hour timed event which required us to maintain 90% of posted speed limits, or penalties where applied. We actually got better than 60.1mpg but the mileage was corrected to ton-miles-per-gallon, as the Sprite was less than one ton. @ 1800lbs with crew of two IIRC?
I look forward to the Volt, but somehow you must take the $12,000 replacement cost of the battery into the mpg calculations. We now use @$2000 worth of gas per year. If the battery lasts 6 years, we don't quite break even on fuel costs. Our electricity rates are tier based. One branch of Government gave us $1800 to convert from an oil furnace to a heat pump. Electricity consumption of the heat pump now bumps us into the next tier rate. An e-car will just compound the cost of our electricity.

 

[DrkAngel]

I was happily reading this fairytale while remembering the basic problem with small scale hybrid vehicles. You use twice the fuel of a conventional ICE vehicle. This is the loss of conversion from chemical to mechanical to electric to mechanical. NET LOSS 50%. But it does get better. Instead of using your battery pack to run your hub motor, use it to convert all of the free energy in water to H and O2. Burn the H and O2 gas in your ICE which powers your generator to drive your hubmotor. Maybe do some "gazintaz" (math) before you spend any money on this set up. You may end up with KW's in = <10% KW's out?

A gas generator that powers an electric motor is classified as a "series hybrid". One such vehicle would be the Chevrolet Volt, when it drops into gas only mode.

Official predictions rate mpg between 30 and 50, dependent on driver and driving conditions. {240 - 400 per 8 gal. fill-up.)

Based on the carefully determined factory testing, in gas only mode, the Volt is anticipated to deliver 300 miles, from an 8 gallon gas tank.

This means that gas, to mechanical, to electric, to mechanical, will still produce 38 mpg!

That is better than most ICE cars!

Is it really? My wife's Miata driven at posted highway speeds + will get 36mpg to 42mpg.

Yes it is really better! An overall city-highway, (average driver), rating of 38 mpg is much better than the 36 - 42 mpg, highway mileage, (of a professional economy driver ... or his wife).

In 1968 I prepared, competed for and won the BMC Cup for 60.1mpg with an Austin Healey Sprite. This was on a trip of highway combined with unimproved gravel secondary roads. It was a 6 hour timed event which required us to maintain 90% of posted speed limits, or penalties where applied. We actually got better than 60.1mpg but the mileage was corrected to ton-miles-per-gallon, as the Sprite was less than one ton. @ 1800lbs with crew of two IIRC?
I look forward to the Volt, but somehow you must take the $12,000 replacement cost of the battery into the mpg calculations. We now use @$2000 worth of gas per year. If the battery lasts 6 years, we don't quite break even on fuel costs.

Fortunately ... reputable sources anticipate battery cost to decrease at the rate of 10% per year, (as well as a 70% increase in capacity, in the next 10 years), meaning a replacement battery should cost $5740 and that replacement battery should have a 40-50% capacity increase! (That adds up to about $4000 for same capacity battery, or a battery of 300% capacity for the present $12,000 price!)

Our electricity rates are tier based. One branch of Government gave us $1800 to convert from an oil furnace to a heat pump. Electricity consumption of the heat pump now bumps us into the next tier rate. An e-car will just compound the cost of our electricity.

Gordo - Check with your local electric company. Most will offer electricity at a greatly reduced price during "off peak" hours, (typically 11pm - 7am.) Charging during these reduced usage hours puts no strain on the "grid", and might save you 50% cost. (They will supply a special meter that charges slightly more during day, but much less during "off peak")

Also the heat pump is most active during these colder off peak hours, saving you even more money!

Your welcome! ... ;<}

 

[Gordo]

Gordo - Check with your local electric company. Most will offer electricity at a greatly reduced price during "off peak" hours, (typically 11pm - 7am.) Charging during these reduced usage hours puts no strain on the "grid", and might save you 50% cost. (They will supply a special meter that charges slightly more during day, but much less during "off peak")

Also the heat pump is most active during these colder off peak hours, saving you even more money!

Your welcome! ... ;<}

We do not have off peak rates. Even if we did, the heat pumps maximum use, whether it is heating or cooling is during peak rate daylight hours. We have natural cooling at night in the summer and the heat programmed off when sleeping.
Every new technology seems to have the fairy tale projections of twice the power and half the price every few years. The fact they ignore is that one has to purchase the new technology and throw the old one out. I just replaced my 32" $800 Toshiba with a newer free 40" Sony XBR that had an original cost of $2000. There is a huge cost to following the path of factory new "cheaper". When all the LCD TV's are replaced with 3D sets next year, what will the value of the LCD's be. Computers, cameras, Cell phones, photovoltaic and heat pumps, all come to mind. Whether your new battery cost $12,000 or $2,000 is immaterial. You still spent the $12,000 to begin with and the cost must be accounted for when computing mpg. Total up your replacement cost of all the high tech gadgets we replace every couple of years. My costs keep going up, not down!

 

[DrkAngel]

Every new technology seems to have the fairy tale projections of twice the power and half the price every few years. The fact they ignore is that one has to purchase the new technology and throw the old one out. I just replaced my 32" $800 Toshiba with a newer free 40" Sony XBR that had an original cost of $2000. There is a huge cost to following the path of factory new "cheaper". When all the LCD TV's are replaced with 3D sets next year, what will the value of the LCD's be. Computers, cameras, Cell phones, photovoltaic and heat pumps, all come to mind. Whether your new battery cost $12,000 or $2,000 is immaterial. You still spent the $12,000 to begin with and the cost must be accounted for when computing mpg. Total up your replacement cost of all the high tech gadgets we replace every couple of years. My costs keep going up, not down!

Sounds like you might want to go Amish. ... ?

 

[todayican2]

I dont even know how to respond to that man, advancing tech is a bad thing based on the obsolescence of the replaced tech?

 

[Gordo]

I dont even know how to respond to that man, advancing tech is a bad thing based on the obsolescence of the replaced tech?

You are totally missing my point. I have earned my very comfortable living with tech advances all my life. All I am suggesting is people should factor in the entire cost of the gadgets when broadcasting 300mpg, based on the cost of electricity used to go 10Km to the store and back. Having just replaced 3 of my twenty 40Ah TS cells at a cost of $176 makes the savings in gasoline ZERO in my case.