Eco Speed All-Cell Battery

[LI-ghtcycle]

I'm really curious to know if anyone here has used this battery and can tell me more about it:

http://www.ecospeed.com/product/ecospeed-battery-with-protective-top-cover-and-switch/

I just got off the phone from Brad at Eco Speed, and he has been giving me some information on the battery that they had made for them by All Cell, it's being referred to as a Lithium Tri-Metal battery, and the cells are Japanese made, and it's assembled in Chicago at All Cell (Eco Speed is great about sourcing all that they can locally, and yes you pay more, but you also help our economy here too!)

From what I am gathering, these cells are a newer generation of chemistry to have something more energetic than LifeP04, but none of the potential of thermal run-away of Li-Poly.

I'm going to try and get more specifics from All Cell Tomorrow, but this is looking to be a very promising battery!

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I have a link here of their battery data sheet, and it's really looking interesting, it would appear that the cells are 4.2V Nominal. Not sure that is not just resting voltage, but they list it at 54.6V with 13S in their packs.

Their claim to fame is the PCM (Phase Change Material) that soaks up heat from the cells and becomes semi-liquid in the process, and increases the cell life dramatically.

I know that Eco Speed is very picky about what they use with their systems, so I am sure these are top notch, just wanted to know if anyone else has experience with these packs as they seem to be a good go-between from LiFeP04 and Li-Poly.

 

[Hillhater]

I have a link here of their battery data sheet, and it's really looking interesting, it would appear that the cells are 4.2V Nominal. Not sure that is not just resting voltage, but they list it at 54.6V with 13S in their packs..

That first link they quote it as a 48V , 12 Ahr , 5p 13S, pack
Which means they are 65 cells , each 2400mAhr .. most likely 18650 style.
At the 1300W , 27A (2C) rating, they really should not need to use that "heat adsorbing" material.

 

[neptronix]

Okay, so it's made up of those 1C nominal, 2C burst panasonic laptop cells just like the stuff chicago electric bikes is selling.

That's a pretty outrageous price considering that chicago electric bicycles sells the same thing for $700.

 

[hillzofvalp]

I've been to their headquarters and have a couple friends who interned there. I just machined some of that pcm for my pack and thought I'd share here. You basically are paying for the pcm imho. They are light packs using 18650s with high volumetric energy density.

The material generally promotes even aging of the cells.. And 18650s are designed for laptop use in 4s2p configs usually. so that's about 90W at 1C where you'd get your 600-800 cycles. pushing 2C WITH pcm is basically the same thing because it pulls all the heat away. PCM only does part of the job.. you have to heatsink the battery a bit

The reason laptop batteries die is usually because one cell goes out because of the uneven temperatures common in laptops.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Hmmm I will have to talk to AllCell some more, according to Brad the batteries they have are higher C rate and are a newer technology, so I will need to confirm this, but I agree, if it's the same standard cells, then it's nothing I'd be interested in, if it is a newer tech that has his 10C rating (I only say this tentatively because he wasn't 100% sure, just going off memory) then I might be.

Thanks for the info!

 

[neptronix]

The material generally promotes even aging of the cells.. And 18650s are designed for laptop use in 4s2p configs usually. so that's about 90W at 1C where you'd get your 600-800 cycles. pushing 2C WITH pcm is basically the same thing because it pulls all the heat away. PCM only does part of the job.. you have to heatsink the battery a bit

Yep, that makes sense.
Basically they're pushing a 2C 'burst' cell to 2C constant, but..
I really think this is a poor approach, as at 2C, you piss away 10% of the energy as heat. And that's a best case for perfect 70f lab conditions, not real life.

The real solution is to not make the heat in the first place.
I hope they wise up eventually.

 

[neptronix]

Hmmm I will have to talk to AllCell some more, according to Brad the batteries they have are higher C rate and are a newer technology, so I will need to confirm this, but I agree, if it's the same standard cells, then it's nothing I'd be interested in, if it is a newer tech that has his 10C rating (I only say this tentatively because he wasn't 100% sure, just going off memory) then I might be.

Thanks for the info!

10C? then that changes things.

But still, this is rather overpriced for the capacity you're getting. Over a thousand dollars per kilowatt hour. You ought to shop around a bit more.

 

[Hillhater]

Yes, its either cheap cells, low C rate that generate the heat ( and wastes energy) and so needs the heat soak material...
..OR its high C rate cells that wont generate enough heat to need the heat soak.
Either way, you are paying for something you dont want, or is unnecessary .
Other than the defunct A123's , is there any 18650 cell with a real 10C discharge capability ?
And the Ecospeed statement that they use the highest capacity cells available,..is not true !

 

[amberwolf]

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=42285
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45260
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=44101
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35096
should have more info on them; others findable with search on allcell or all-cell etc

 

[Holocene]

But still, this is rather overpriced for the capacity you're getting. Over a thousand dollars per watt hour. You ought to shop around a bit more.

Yep, that's like U$1.90 per watt-hour.

Turnigy A-SPEC Nanotech is about $1.11 per whr for a 12S 5Ahr pack ($246.29 after the 'wait-awhile' discount; in stock @ the US warehouse) ...

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=33182

3 of these batts gives you a $750 15Ahr ~48V pack that is capable of accepting charge rates up to 6 KW, in a pack that weighs 6.75 lbs

Now THAT's got to be the silver bullet.

Cheers!
Holocene

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Here is the difference to me, I use Nano Tech Batteries, and I LOVE them, however, With out a bulky high out-put meanwell paired with my hyperion charger, I'm not going to be charging things very fast or safely.

The 10C pouch cell A123 Prismatic pack I have has worked admirably so far, but is also not designed with a BMS to handle quick enough charging to be anything other than something you ride to work, charge for 4-6hrs and then ride home, but if I am just going for a short trip, not really efficient.

Not to say that this pack will or would charge any quicker, but at least it would be something that I could sell to a new customer and not feel uncomfortable that they might then use them improperly and have a fire which is very much the possibility with Li-Poly.

I'm thinking with this particular project I am working on (Micargi Cruiser) I'm going to go high voltage with two Amped Bikes Tube batteries, because it's really the only way to get high voltage with Li-Poly and still have a reliable and safe off the shelf product that most would not easily have problems with charging safely.

I'm on the same page with you guys, if they are just pushing a cheap cell really hard and getting more than it's designed to do, then that's no great improvement, but I don't see any mention of the "Lithium Tri-Metal" chemistry on AllCell's site, so I am hoping that this is a newer battery design that perhaps works closer to something nearly as safe as LiFeP04, but runs hotter and more energy dense like Li-Poly, and then maybe the PCM material then is being used effectively.

 

[Jason27]

They are extremely light and well made batteries. Best ebike batteries ive come accross. Ive had mine since fall of 2011. Purchased from chicago electric bikes. Took about 2 weeks to be delivered.


Highly recommend!

 

[neptronix]

They are extremely light and well made batteries. Best ebike batteries ive come accross. Ive had mine since fall of 2011. Purchased from chicago electric bikes. Took about 2 weeks to be delivered.

Highly recommend!

We're talking about a different battery chemistry. Not as light / small as yours.

Li-ghtcycle.. why not put a BMS on the nanotech you already have? It would make bulk charging safe.
You already have a great bulk charger. These come with what, a 2 amp charger?

 

[docnjoj]

These Allcell batteries are somewhat appealing but I have yet to see any real world tests or any comments regarding warrantee when things go wrong. For such an expensive product I would expect to see super service, especially at the price point that they sell.
I love to buy American even if it is just manufactured here with foreign cells, but I'm gunnna wait a while till more data appears. Just my 2 Cents.
otherDoc

 

[slacker]

i know someone who bought one from chicago electric bikes and had a problem that did not get resolved and said person would never deal with them again because of unresolved issues.just my 2 cents

 

[Ypedal]

1, for the price tag, it should come in a hard shell box.. not just shrink wrap.

2, these 18650 packs are ok if you are running 500w systems or less, or want long range high capacity so that the voltage sag is kept in check....


If you want to run 1000w+, lipo is the only way to go imo.

 

[docnjoj]

@ slacker
Do you have any more details about this persons problems with the battery,

@ Ypedal
I'm sticking with LiFePo4 for now since I need reliability and range, not speed so much. I love the idea of HK LiPo but charge in the house and would have to make major safety changes. I do have a fireplace so that would be a possibility. Thanks for the suggestions.
otherDoc

 

[slacker]

he had a problem with a wire that shorted out something and tried to get warranty support which he found out he was on his own and said he would never deal with them again.do not know much more as he is just another e biker i see occassionally on my travels.hope this helps.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Ok, I just got off the phone with AllCell, and I will tell you what their representative told me.

The website hasn't been up-dated with the newer chemistry info, and this is indeed a newer battery cell/chemistry that is being sold to Eco Speed than the standard 18650 cells previously used and originally developed for use in laptops. The company that makes these cells (Japanese made according to Eco Speed, so maybe the same company that made/developed the 18650's? Panasonic? Sanyo?) specifically for E-Bike use, so this isn't just a lap top battery that the company is claiming "oh ya, and they work great for E-Bikes too" so this has me interested to get the details.

This is a new generation of cells. The chemistry is Lithium Nickle Cobalt Manganese (Thus Lithium Tri-Metal) and is a 4C cell and I confirmed that a Nominal 12AH pack at 48V would be rated for this at a constant load, and that an E-Bike controller of 48V 40 Amps would work fine with said battery.

The resting voltage of this battery cell is 3.6 V and there is proprietary information on the cells that he could not share with me as a man off the street, but encouraged me to talk to Eco Speed, ask them to request the information (what cells are being used, who makes them) and I should have no problem getting that information from Eco Speed.

I'm going to talk with Brad at Eco Speed hopefully today and ask him to pass on this request for more information.

I am really interested at how this PCM material works for absorbing heat from the cells, as we all know, heat (eccessive heat) is the enemy of electronics in general be it batteries, controllers or motors.

He explained to me that this engineered material is a analogous to an Ice Cube melting in how it absorbs heat away from the cells, until the preset temperature is reached, this material stays solid and is mixed with other various materials of different temperature rating so that the the higher temperature materials act as a "sponge" holding together the lower temperature materials which become liquid to absorb heat away from the cells.

This means that you won't have any liquid that can be leaked out or released from the PCM, but that it will prevent the cells naturally from exceeding temperatures that would damage them, and this is part of why they offer a 2 year warranty on the battery.

I'm not sure why AllCell's website isn't showing the newer batteries yet, and the rep I talked to was surprised it wasn't listed either, but hopefully in the next few days I should have more information to share.

If indeed it is rated for 4C constant discharge, I will say this is not Li-Poly, but that it is definitely a step up from the typical "duct-tape" battery that is sold with a 1 - 2C rating that really isn't designed to perform as much as it is designed to be cheap.

Sure if you're like many of us here, Turnigy Nanotechs are the way to go $$$ wise, however, for the average consumer who isn't going to want to know much other than he can plug a charger into a wall and after X hours should have a fully charged pack, it will fit the bill nicely.

 

[999zip999]

They have enough heat at normal use that they need a special cooling style thing ?

 

[neptronix]

That's fine and dandy, but the trick is to not make the heat in the first place.

You can control the heat with this waxlike material, yes, but you still get wickedly bad voltage sag and waste 5%-10% of your power as heat. If you want a battery that sags a lot, costs a lot, and is coated in wax, then this is just the ticket.

Throw those nanotechs that stay bone cold at 20C continuous, barely sag, deliver >99.9% of their full watt hours as power, and don't need any thermal management in the trash! :lol:

Okay, i'll throw them a bone. What the wax does is help isolate cells from each other if they ever explode. This is a good safety feature. This is the real advantage of allcell's batteries. This is great for a braindead consumer, but do you really want to pay $1000-$1500/kw-hr, rather than the $300-$400/kw-hr you can get with higher performance Chinese batteries? Add a BMS on top of the price of the Chinese batteries, and you have came out far, far ahead in price, still.

 

[amberwolf]

What the wax does is help isolate cells from each other if they ever explode. This is a good safety feature.

Of course, if a cell ever did actually catch fire (or a wire shorted across something due to worn insulation/etc.) and heated the wax enough, then *it* would catch fire and set the rest of the thing ablaze as it liquifies, assuming there is sufficient air trapped inside the main pack casing, or could enter thru openings (existing or caused in whatever incident began the fire). Ever tried to put out a wax fire without a fire extinguisher? It's almost as hard as a cooking oil fire. (my youngest sister used to make her own candles from various kinds of wax....)

 

[Ypedal]

i honestly canot diss the pricetag of the allcell packs, they sell them pre-built, with bms connected and charger that plugs in, easy peasy, at a price that allows for some profit to be made, keeping a company going...

look at the older, out of business, headway dealers, selling cells at factory bulk cost to end users... no surprise they failed and people got screwed.

if you got the skills to build your own pack from hobby lipo, and use it as safely as possible, i think they are a reasonable option..

if you want to plug your pack in, and go to bed, dont buy lipo.

 

[neptronix]

What the wax does is help isolate cells from each other if they ever explode. This is a good safety feature.

Of course, if a cell ever did actually catch fire (or a wire shorted across something due to worn insulation/etc.) and heated the wax enough, then *it* would catch fire and set the rest of the thing ablaze as it liquifies, assuming there is sufficient air trapped inside the main pack casing, or could enter thru openings (existing or caused in whatever incident began the fire). Ever tried to put out a wax fire without a fire extinguisher? It's almost as hard as a cooking oil fire. (my youngest sister used to make her own candles from various kinds of wax....)

Maybe the wax is non-flammable? this isn't a normal wax.. i'm not sure how it would work in real life... but a bit of separation between cells is helpful. Tesla does something like this with their Panasonic cell packs, and they have not had a catastrophic failure just yet.