Electra Townie - Which Electric Motor ???

[vja4Him]

I just watched a video of someone riding a bicycle with the 600W Thunderbolt. That looks like something that I could live with ... !!!

I have an Electra Townie, and would like to get some input regarding which electric motors would be a good choice.

Terrain is flat everywhere, except for a few overpasses, which I can pedal up with no problem. I ride my bicycle everywhere. Will pedal at least 200 miles/month, and use the motor for another 150-200 miles/mo. I need to commute to work (different job assignments everyday) 5-15 miles one way. My weight is around 210, backpack I carry everywhere is between 10-15 pounds, groceries add another 10-15 pounds.

I'd like to have a high quality, strong, long-lasting electric motor, with strong batteries (maybe lithium?). I'm hoping that I can spend at least $1,000.00 (depending on my tax return, possibly more). I would like to have something that will provide 25-30 mph.

 

[pithy]

I have a Crystalyte 408 on a Townie: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3995
On flats with no pedaling it gets me up to about 25mph. I haven't really fully tested the range very much (nearly always recharge before the batteries are completely dead), but my guesstimate is that with minimal pedaling I could go maybe 15 mi., more with pedaling and/or keeping the speed to 20 mph or under, and a little less if I pedal only when starting from a stop and go full throttle the entire time. These are just estimates though.

 

[vja4Him]

I have a Crystalyte 408 on a Townie: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3995
On flats with no pedaling it gets me up to about 25mph. I haven't really fully tested the range very much (nearly always recharge before the batteries are completely dead), but my guesstimate is that with minimal pedaling I could go maybe 15 mi., more with pedaling and/or keeping the speed to 20 mph or under, and a little less if I pedal only when starting from a stop and go full throttle the entire time. These are just estimates though.

How long have you been using the Crystalyte 408? Do you have (or does anyone?) any idea what the life of the electric motor might be? I've read that the highest quality lithium batteries will take up to 2,000 charges! Is that for real? If so, is it conceivable the highest quality lithium batteries could last up to ten years or longer? Assuming you charge four times a week, that would be 208 charge each year, or nearly ten years of charging ... !!! Would the motor last that long? Or longer?

 

[vja4Him]

What kind of acceleration do you get with the Crystalyte 408 ... ??? How does the Crystalyte 408 drive with a heavy load (say 250-260 pounds) ... ???

I have a Crystalyte 408 on a Townie: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3995
On flats with no pedaling it gets me up to about 25mph. I haven't really fully tested the range very much (nearly always recharge before the batteries are completely dead), but my guesstimate is that with minimal pedaling I could go maybe 15 mi., more with pedaling and/or keeping the speed to 20 mph or under, and a little less if I pedal only when starting from a stop and go full throttle the entire time. These are just estimates though.

 

[JinbaIttai]

...is it conceivable the highest quality lithium batteries could last up to ten years or longer? Assuming you charge four times a week, that would be 208 charge each year, or nearly ten years of charging ... !!! Would the motor last that long? Or longer?

The cyclic life of the battery would be 2000 charges, but IIRC the actual shelf life is less (maybe 5 years?), so I think you wouldn't see 10 years.

 

[pithy]

i've been using this motor and batteries for less than a year. i don't know how long the motor will last, but i hope it'll last a long time. i have limited experience--this is my first/only ebike--so i'm not the best judge of how long it will last. i've put about 1400 miles on it so far, and the only real problem i've had is that i kept breaking spokes for a while. i had the motor rebuilt into a stronger wheel with better spokes (with washers added, as suggested by the great guys at ebikes.ca). i've ridden about 800-900 mi. or so since the wheel was rebuilt, and i haven't popped any spokes at all. the batteries i'm using have a great warranty. i expect (hope) they'll still be useful four years from now.

not sure how to quantify acceleration for you. it works fine for me, but i'm no speed-demon. i always pedal a bit from a dead stop to try to take it easy on the batteries, but otherwise i frequently do a lot of riding with throttle-only/no pedaling. i have a pair of cheapo nashbar grocery bag panniers that i load up with groceries frequently (http://tinyurl.com/6zfl8c -- every now and then they go on sale for $15/each). i'd guess the weight (including me, groceries, and a laptop in a backpack) could easily be in the 250-270 pound range, and i don't have any problems. i have to pedal a little harder to get going when i'm loaded down, and it is a little slower overall, but it hasn't been an issue for me. in fact, using the bike and bags for errands has made me start thinking seriously about transferring the motor to something more like a surly big dummy or yuba mundo SUB, or adding on an extracycle to my townie. it seems like once i get going 20+ mph with a full load, the wind resistance from the panniers seems to affect the ride more than the weight of the groceries.

one thing that concerns me, though, is all of that weight on the crystalyte axle. i haven't noticed any problems at all, but if i used a big dummy frame or an extracycle with a rear-hub crystalyte, will i be looking for trouble with the axle if, say, i have my 105-pound wife sitting on the back? anyone have any opinions on axle strength? what's the best rear motor to use if you want to put a heavy load on the back? or would it make more sense to go with a front-hub motor if you want to increase the load on the back axle?

 

[deardancer3]

A 500w cyclone chain drive will fit very nicely on a feet forward electra. great hill climbing, top end and range.

 

[Zoot Katz]

. . .in fact, using the bike and bags for errands has made me start thinking seriously about transferring the motor to something more like a surly big dummy or yuba mundo SUB, or adding on an extracycle to my townie. it seems like once i get going 20+ mph with a full load, the wind resistance from the panniers seems to affect the ride more than the weight of the groceries.

one thing that concerns me, though, is all of that weight on the crystalyte axle. i haven't noticed any problems at all, but if i used a big dummy frame or an extracycle with a rear-hub crystalyte, will i be looking for trouble with the axle if, say, i have my 105-pound wife sitting on the back? anyone have any opinions on axle strength? what's the best rear motor to use if you want to put a heavy load on the back? or would it make more sense to go with a front-hub motor if you want to increase the load on the back axle?

A better rear hub or rear hub motor for longtails would have more than 36 spoke holes. The Crystalyte rear axle, even its with flats and a notch, appears stronger than any normal bicycle axle. Axle bending or breakage don't worry me.

I do resent giving up ~30lbs of Xtracycle's payload to a bunch of batteries but I've still loaded it down with 150# passenger and 4 doz beer. The weight of the hub motor doesn't really count.

The best argument for a front hub motor is balancing the weight distribution if you're mounting the batteries at the rear. Having batteries, motor and load behind the center of balance makes my Xtracycle light in the front end so it's easier to skid that tire on greasy wet leaves.

 

[vja4Him]

. . .in fact, using the bike and bags for errands has made me start thinking seriously about transferring the motor to something more like a surly big dummy or yuba mundo SUB, or adding on an extracycle to my townie. it seems like once i get going 20+ mph with a full load, the wind resistance from the panniers seems to affect the ride more than the weight of the groceries.

one thing that concerns me, though, is all of that weight on the crystalyte axle. i haven't noticed any problems at all, but if i used a big dummy frame or an extracycle with a rear-hub crystalyte, will i be looking for trouble with the axle if, say, i have my 105-pound wife sitting on the back? anyone have any opinions on axle strength? what's the best rear motor to use if you want to put a heavy load on the back? or would it make more sense to go with a front-hub motor if you want to increase the load on the back axle?

A better rear hub or rear hub motor for longtails would have more than 36 spoke holes. The Crystalyte rear axle, even its with flats and a notch, appears stronger than any normal bicycle axle. Axle bending or breakage don't worry me.

I do resent giving up ~30lbs of Xtracycle's payload to a bunch of batteries but I've still loaded it down with 150# passenger and 4 doz beer. The weight of the hub motor doesn't really count.

The best argument for a front hub motor is balancing the weight distribution if you're mounting the batteries at the rear. Batteries, motor and load make my Xtracycle too light in the front end and easier to skid that tire on greasy wet leaves.

Is there a special battery pack to place batteries in the front, or in the middle, to help balance out the bike better?

 

[pithy]

"Is there a special battery pack..."
almost everything is a custom job in one way or another. most battery packs seem to be designed to go on the back rack. for my bike, i currently use that swagman box. it has worked well for what i need, but i'm planning on building a custom battery box to put the weight inside the frame and to secure it better (that swagman box has a lock, but it's not really all that secure). surf around the photos forum ( http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=6 ) and you'll see lots of different methods people have used. the bionx systems have a cool battery system that attaches to the middle of the frame, but personally i don't really trust the bionx system (tested one, got my money back). there are various bags you can buy that will fit inside the frame, but how you install the batteries really depends on exactly what batteries you're using.

 

[Zoot Katz]

. . . Is there a special battery pack to place batteries in the front, or in the middle, to help balance out the bike better?

Yes. You can get good NiCd packs in a triangular configuration from some dealers or have them custom built of any chemisty you fancy.
Alternatively seriously consider getting two battery packs connected in either series or parallel just to balance the weight low on both sides of the bike and carry them in removable panniers so you aren't afraid to park the bike unattended.

Otherwise, IMO, the best placement for batteries is along a line from your seat cluster to bottom bracket. To get enough space there for a custom battery pack you need an extended wheelbase. You'll find some choppers and many stock ebikes carrying their batteries there.

Developing a neatly housed plug in battery for the Kona Ute, Surly Big Dummy and Yuba Mondo would interest me.

 

[pithy]

The best argument for a front hub motor is balancing the weight distribution if you're mounting the batteries at the rear. Having batteries, motor and load behind the center of balance makes my Xtracycle light in the front end so it's easier to skid that tire on greasy wet leaves.

that's the biggest reason i'm planning on building a box to put my batteries inside the frame. i can *really* feel having all the weight in the back with my current setup. to accommodate opening the battery box, i had to push the box back on the rack a bit which puts the battery weight back behind the axle. it's pretty easy to bounce the front wheel up off the ground.

 

[pithy]

Developing a neatly housed plug in battery for the Kona Ute, Surly Big Dummy and Yuba Mondo would interest me.

that's what i've been thinking about too. the new rans hammertruck looks interesting too: http://ransbikes.com/HammerTruck.htm

 

[vja4Him]

"Is there a special battery pack..."
almost everything is a custom job in one way or another. most battery packs seem to be designed to go on the back rack. for my bike, i currently use that swagman box. it has worked well for what i need, but i'm planning on building a custom battery box to put the weight inside the frame and to secure it better (that swagman box has a lock, but it's not really all that secure). surf around the photos forum ( http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=6 ) and you'll see lots of different methods people have used. the bionx systems have a cool battery system that attaches to the middle of the frame, but personally i don't really trust the bionx system (tested one, got my money back). there are various bags you can buy that will fit inside the frame, but how you install the batteries really depends on exactly what batteries you're using.

I'm also worried about somebody being able to quickly steal the batteries!!! I don't plan on keeping my bicycle locked up for long periods of time though ... When I'm at work, my bicycle is with me. But when I go to the health club, I'm usually inside for two hours ... When I'm grocery shopping with my bicycle, I'm inside for only about 20 minutes.

 

[Shotster]

but personally i don't really trust the bionx system (tested one, got my money back).

I'm considering purchasing a BionX system and have heard generally good things about them, so your comment got my attention. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "don't trust them" and "tested one"? What exactly is it you don't trust, and what kind of testing, specifically, did you perform?

Thanks,

-Steve

 

[pithy]

The short version is that I bought one, it died within about 30 mi. of use (second day), sent it back for warranty repair, got sent back a non-functional unit with missing parts, returned it, got my money back. I first went with Bionx because judging by all the posts you can find around about people loving theirs, I figured it would be an easy and reliable option. It wasn't. Other than having to get my Crystalyte wheel rebuilt with better rim/spokes because I kept popping the factory spokes, I'm really much happier with this setup, I think, than if I had tried my luck with another Bionx "warranty repair" (and the Crystalyte at 56V is a good bit faster than the Bionx .