Electric Rickshaw Taxi

[numberonebikeslover]

#1,

From reading this thread, I gather this is indeed an ambitious project. Your very low cost bike shows that you are up to the task. I would like to send a little money to help seed this project. It looks like you have a lot of work to build the chassis before motor and batteries can be applied. Please provide Western Union information.

Indeed this project is very big but let me tell you sir, when I started making my first project, it took me almost 6 to 7 years to even begin. I had no knowledge of Mechanical or electrical engineering. I surfed internet for knowledge and books then I learned how to work with metals with a welder. I'm a man who never gives up. My very low cost electric bike is a thing which I did in about 8 - 9 years when I started using it as a reliable vehicle for daily use. I'm getting a lot of feedback from nice people like your self from all around the world. This is really helping to finalize a flawless strategy / design, which will also be discussed with the members in this thread continuously.

Western Union is only cheap way to send donations as paypal is not available in Pakistan.
Information that would be needed, I guess, would be:
my complete Name: Muhammad Naeem Zahid,
City = Peshawar,
Country = Pakistan,
NIC No. (National Identity Card Number): 17301-1351170-5

I hope you can find regional sources for your electric parts as shipping from China looks to double the prices. Even so, China may be your best bet. In order to be able to produce multiple instances of your rickshaw and replace broken parts, a standard design with readily available parts will be important.

Yes it is quite expensive but less than shipping from America, Canada or any farther country region. I'm intending to make such a design which could easily be repairable here and parts readily available in my country or in China as it is the only available option.

In regard to money transfers, it looks like Western Union charges 10% + currency exchange costs. I don't know if you can create a Paypal account, but if you can, it appears the transfer costs are much lower. Perhaps our international community can suggest better options.

To create an account in paypal I went to the website of it and I couldn't find Pakistan in the country region list. I guess the service is not available in Pakistan yet.

It will be interesting to see how the economics of this project work out. From your initial post, the traditional gas rickshaw costs 2,00,000 Rs (2330 USD) and it looks like you expect to be able to build for less. Yours will probably have less range and speed, but will hopefully cost less to operate given the cost of electricity and batteries vs. oil. Like the ES community in general, you are a pioneer on the leading edge of technology. Moving forward in time, you can expect the price of oil vs. electricity and battery technology to move in your favor.

I want to make an electric rickshaw which is as low cost as possible which such a design in which parts are already there like i did in my low cost electric bike, but as for motor i've to import from china. Today the Oil prices has increased to Rs. 4 and one liter super petrol is now Rs. 80 while a USD is Rs. 86. It is davistating for rickshaw drivers and they are going on strike. In such a situation i see a very bright future of E-rickshaw in my country, although the range and speed will be an issue but as i see intense traffic, speed is no longer an issue.

I'm not sure how you feel about the subject, but IMO thinking like a businessman is not inherently a bad thing. If over the years, you can build a business that operates at a profit you will be in a position to provide jobs and products that improve life for many.

Oh yes indeed and why not. If the business improves and there is room for investment but the basic thing for starting a business is huge capital which i don't have. Even making a single piece is impossible for me without donations form nice people like yourself.

I look forward for your feedback and support.

Respectfully
Naeem

 

[numberonebikeslover]

A good way to estimate the true energy requirements, ignoring that your weight is likely to be greater due to batteries, is to ask rickshaw drivers how much gas they use per day. They probably know their per kilometer usage.

It is about 35 KM/liter of super petrol but due to traffic james this may reach to 30 km/litter. Gasoline is very low octane while super is the highest octane and only this is available. These days a 4stroke rickshaw is also available which runs on Compressed Natural Gas (CNG). Its running cost is extremely low but the rickshaw is very very expensive (round about 3,00,000, in USD it is 3488.37) and thus beyond the reach of a poor person. Moreover, maintenance cost is extremely high due to high prices of spare parts. Maintenance is also very high, every day there is something wrong with engine as engine is Chinese and a low quality. It starts eating engine oil after every 3 months as the piston wears out due to low quality. I know all this as my first cousin owns it and earns a living through it. The Government has provided these on loan with some dawn payment and monthly installments. But due to afore-cited facts of cost factor they are proving to be a failure. This makes me believe that there is great room for such rickshaw in the market.

About efficiency I wanted to ask that if we use geared motors (non hub) is it more efficient than non geared motor (non hub)? Thanks for such an informative response. It really enhanced my knowledge.

There is indeed an opportunity for charging during the day as I mentioned in my post earlier, which may be for 1 to 3 hours break which is normal. A charger could be made that could charge the batteries at higher amps and make them full in about 1 hours or so.

About paddling powered charging: It would just increase the weight and less gain, so I’ve dropped the idea of doing it. Solar panel is a great idea and worth giving it a try as there is 99% sunny in my city. It will definitely increase range but will increase the cost of low cost project. There is no wind at all only during storms which are very rare may be once a year or so.

Hub motors are more efficient and direct drive system and there are lesser loses but on the other hand chain drive is only 98% efficient. I think not one of them is bad.

Regarding the battery and intermittent vs continuous load, the intermittent load results in the battery have less capacity to give, because higher current is drawn. The difference is quite pronounced with lead batteries, but I think it does happen to a much lower extent with lithium batteries too. Check out Peukert's Effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peukert%27s_law

Yes this is great information and I’ve experienced this and learnt this through my first project as mentioned by one of the member and I found this to be very true about batteries specially Lead acid type. My goal is to keep the current drawn quite lesser than the capacity of battery in order to keep the batteries alive for long and last longer.

I thank you very much from the core of my heart for such an informative feedback which was no doubt full of knowledge. I look forward to hearing from you in future as well.
Respectfully
Naeem

 

[numberonebikeslover]

i agree with John and if you plan to drive this rickshaw taxi in a very hot climate , maybe you gonna have some problem of heating because hub motor suffer of low speed if you draw lot of current . because you are in the trafic you don't have enougth speed to ventilate the hub motor , you will have to drill some hole , i just imagine 4 people sitting on a heavy ricksaw just to accelerate with will draw lot of current so lot of heat everytime you go and stop , i don't say its not acheivable project but i am sure it will cost more to build a electric rickshaw then a gaz powered one and also you will need a fast charger between the lunch time for your battery to recovery and this also cost lot of money , if your need is only a top speed of 20-25mph the project is very easy to achieve but if you need speed like combustion motor and range there a lot of $$$ to obtain the same performance and not worth it if you not rich , i live in canada and i can't afford a electric motorcycle and its my dream

i wish you best luck for your project

Thanks for your response. As i mentioned earlier in my post my top speed is not more than 40 km/hr which is 25 mph a geared hubmotor is best in this situation. moreover, a fan could be adjusted to produce air current while the hubs are pushing a heavy rickshaw in traffic james. About dreams, having an electric bike was my dream as I went through making one and I saw on the internet an electric bike, Oh My God this thing exists and I thought i'm the first one making it. I made my dream come true and believe me one day your dream will come true as well. If you can't buy one you might find way to make one with something available around. I gave a thought of making one with using 4 motors like the one i used in my "very low cost electric bike" and a Lithium ion battery custom made up of laptop cells. but i got scared of the cells as they are hard to manage without a BMS about which i can only dream.

About gas powered rickshaw, it consumes petrol or CNG which is costly while electricity is a bit cheap and it has other sources like solar panels.

Thanks for your best wishes.

Respectfully
Naeem

 

[numberonebikeslover]

Dear All;

It is so nice to see that I’m getting a lot of feedback on my project. I thank you all with the core of my heart for your support, help and precious time you take to write the feedback and responses.

With all the feedback and knowledge in hand I would like to share some of my ideas. Using hubmotors which are fixed drive experience great load conditions while starting from stand still where there is no option to switch between gears to reduce load from motor. With these facts I’m compelled to use a non hub motor alongwith a gear box of motorcycle with 4 gears to switch between torque and speed, so that the amps drawn from the batteries could be reduced and this will definitely increase range.

A day back I happen to pass through an uphill as I mentioned earlier Jail bridge I noticed that it is about 30 degree which is a very tough one though it is a short one but having a weak hubmotor it will blow up easily and that’s what I don’t want to happen in 100 years for my design. Thus a gear box is a must with a non hub motor.

In pursuit of the same I talked with one of my mechanic friend Mr. Khanay. He told me I could use a 4 geared scooter gearbox in which the wheel is directly connected to the gearbox shaft. He said that after removing the weight assembly (connecting road, weight, shaft, piston, head, cylinder etc.) of the engine I can make a replacement shaft instead of weight assembly in its place with which motor could be coupled to communicate with the rest of the gearing mechanism in the gearbox.

About a fast charger, I made a transformer for about 4,500 Rs. In my UPS, Which gives out on 24v 37amps = 888 watts. Such could be made to charge batteries a lot quicker. Suppose I’m suing 100 amps 12v batteries 4 of them charging at for example 48v 35 amps. How long will it take to charge them.

The only object that I will be importing from China will be a brushless motor with a controller let me do a search and let me know you how much it costs. But first I need to confirm about the Mr. Khanay’s option of a scooter gearbox.

About my Western Union details:
my complete Name: Muhammad Naeem Zahid,
City = Peshawar,
Country = Pakistan,
NIC No. (National Identity Card Number): 17301-1351170-5

Thanks a lot for your contributions.

Respectfully Yours
Naeem

 

[Gordo]

Guys;
Before you start sending money by Western Union, please consider the transfer fee. I believe it is @ $9.00 PER TRANSFER. This is a huge loss of valuable capital.
I therefore propose to conserve this capital by sending the funds to LFP, if he will accept and then do one transfer to Naeem. I have already used paypal and sent my donation to Luke. I hope he does not mind being burdened with this task?

EDIT;
Luke has agreed to wait a few more days for any more contributions before sending the funds off.
Please send him a PM if you wish to help?
Thanks;

 

[Gordo]

Naeem'
The scooter transmission has been done before. Look at this thread;

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17576

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17576

 

[jmygann]

http://www.velocab.com/velocab.htm

http://cyclesantamonica.blogspot.com/2007/11/e-velocabs.html

http://www.trixi.com/

http://wn.com/velotaxi

 

[lifepo4ever]

Naeem, for the set up i hope you can afford lithium cells because sla is killing the range if you want to travel 4 people plus the weigth of the rickshaw and the battery ,but maybe with your cvt system you made you can do it but again more mecanism mean more maintenance , i am pretty sure is you go with hub motor and big drilled hole in side cover can do the job , my hub motor cool down very fast when i stop because the dissipate from the hole but if I the only problem you have , if the climate is very hot you will have to stop to take break sometime , solar roof can help a little bit but again it will do lot of drag because its not completly close, but can protect the rickshaw in rainy day

 

[numberonebikeslover]

Thank you very much lifepo4ever for your words of wisdom which really increased my knowledge.

Naeem, for the set up i hope you can afford lithium cells because sla is killing the range

Yes Sir, only cells i've found here are used in computer laptop batteries (see the attached pic) costs about 180 Rs. per cell. but I've no idea about the discharge current rate lvc and hcv. The thing about these cells discouraged me that this is the most running item in the market now a days so its price is quite reasonable. Moreover, being a running item there is lesser chance that I may end up with worn out cells lying in the shelf for years and as lithium ion do not have much shelf life.

but maybe with your cvt system you made you can do it but again more mecanism mean more maintenance

I'm not intending to use a scooter with CVT. The one i'm going to use have fixed gearbox with a choice to switch between 4 gears (first, second, third and forth). The scooters of 60s are still running on roads in my city and their gear box is without any problem. Second choice could be a 70cc Honda bike's gearbox, which is the lightest around, but that has to be studied yet for its plausibility. Scooter option is good as breaks, wheel, shock absorber everything is just a one good pack.

solar roof can help a little bit but again it will do lot of drag because its not completly close, but can protect the rickshaw in rainy day

The rickshaw must have a cabin like setup as i mentioned earlier in my post that the weather is tough, hotter in summer (48 degrees Centigrade) and colder in winter (about -1 to -4 at times) rains are very rare but some time it may rain for 7 days a week continuous as recent flooding resulted with immense rains. In a cabin like setup a roof is must and surely there is going to be room for solar panels.
Thank you very much for your feedback.
Respectfully
Naeem

 

[numberonebikeslover]

Hello every one

I came across this thread about making a brushless motor of an alternator. These things are readily available in the market over here and pretty cheap. My question is that how much power can they produce I mean the biggest one I could get my hands on? Could this be the prospective motor for my project?

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16328

Sincerely
Naeem

 

[fechter]

Yes, something like that might work. The efficiency might not be as good as a hub motor with permanent magnets, but they are readily available almost anywhere.

 

[numberonebikeslover]

Yes, something like that might work. The efficiency might not be as good as a hub motor with permanent magnets, but they are readily available almost anywhere.

What if the rotor is replace with a one with Permanent Magnets on it. Hard drive magnets are lying with me could be used to make such a rotor. What I understand is that due to a coil in the rotor that creates the an electro-magnet and uses electric energy to do that, makes this motor less efficient? Is that so? If not, would you be kind enough explaining what makes this motor less efficient?

Naeem

 

[numberonebikeslover]

Dear All;

Can any body tell me what is the difference if incase a sensorless motor is used instead of a sensored motor? What is the big difference in both these if one is better than other then why?????

As in my earlier post i've mentioned about a post of using car alternator as bldc. I thought may be if it is a good option for my e-rickshaw.

Sincerely
Naeem

 

[Gordo]

Dear All;

Can any body tell me what is the difference if incase a sensorless motor is used instead of a sensored motor? What is the big difference in both these if one is better than other then why?????

As in my earlier post i've mentioned about a post of using car alternator as bldc. I thought may be if it is a good option for my e-rickshaw.

Sincerely
Naeem

Naeem;
I think a senorless motor is most efficient in a narrow band of rpm. A sensored motor can match the power being applied to the rpm and load to what the motor can handle.

You may want to consider efficiency over all other factors. Choose a hubmotor for it's ability to handle your load on the grades you must navigate. Consider the lowest speed that your customers will accept. To get even close to a hubmotor with an altermotor, you need to change to a permanent magnet rotor. The diameter of the alternator and the rpm where it becomes efficient, limit it's usefulness for your project. Don't cripple your project to start with. Everyone so far who has made an altermotor has found a great deal of power is lost as heat.

 

[amberwolf]

Hard drive magnets are lying with me could be used to make such a rotor.

That type of magnet tends to have the poles in the wrong place--usually both poles are on the same face, and that's usually not what you want, unless you have an axial-flux motor (rather than the radial-flux type like what you are currently using, which is also like the typical ebike hubmotor, etc.).

What I understand is that due to a coil in the rotor that creates the an electro-magnet and uses electric energy to do that, makes this motor less efficient? Is that so? If not, would you be kind enough explaining what makes this motor less efficient?

Using a Field Coil instead of a permanent magnet field is electrically less efficient, but it can give you more fine control over the motor's torque and RPM, if you had a controller complex enough to react to various sensor inputs and then control both the field and the stator coils.

Another part of the lower efficiency of a Field Coil in a converted alternator is that the Field will be powered thru brushes, so it's not quite as efficient as a brushless version would be (but you can't make the Field brushless, just the main stator, because the Field has to rotate physically to move the shaft).

 

[numberonebikeslover]

Hard drive magnets are lying with me could be used to make such a rotor.

That type of magnet tends to have the poles in the wrong place--usually both poles are on the same face, and that's usually not what you want, unless you have an axial-flux motor (rather than the radial-flux type like what you are currently using, which is also like the typical ebike hubmotor, etc.).

What I understand is that due to a coil in the rotor that creates the an electro-magnet and uses electric energy to do that, makes this motor less efficient? Is that so? If not, would you be kind enough explaining what makes this motor less efficient?

Using a Field Coil instead of a permanent magnet field is electrically less efficient, but it can give you more fine control over the motor's torque and RPM, if you had a controller complex enough to react to various sensor inputs and then control both the field and the stator coils.

Another part of the lower efficiency of a Field Coil in a converted alternator is that the Field will be powered thru brushes, so it's not quite as efficient as a brushless version would be (but you can't make the Field brushless, just the main stator, because the Field has to rotate physically to move the shaft).

Thanks for response, as i was desperately waiting for your words of wisdom.

Tell me; would this motor be efficient than the Permanent magnet brushed motor i'm currently using in my very low cost electric bike. Can you do any math in this please? My Brushed fan motor reads on its brushes 1.5 ohms while few days back i put the front wheel against the wall so that if i accelerate the bike would just do burnout only. in my experiment it drew 12 amps on 48 v = 576 watts.

thanks
With warm regards.
Naeem

 

[numberonebikeslover]

Dear All;

Can any body tell me what is the difference if incase a sensorless motor is used instead of a sensored motor? What is the big difference in both these if one is better than other then why?????

As in my earlier post i've mentioned about a post of using car alternator as bldc. I thought may be if it is a good option for my e-rickshaw.

Sincerely
Naeem

Naeem;
I think a senorless motor is most efficient in a narrow band of rpm. A sensored motor can match the power being applied to the rpm and load to what the motor can handle.

You may want to consider efficiency over all other factors. Choose a hubmotor for it's ability to handle your load on the grades you must navigate. Consider the lowest speed that your customers will accept. To get even close to a hubmotor with an altermotor, you need to change to a permanent magnet rotor. The diameter of the alternator and the rpm where it becomes efficient, limit it's usefulness for your project. Don't cripple your project to start with. Everyone so far who has made an altermotor has found a great deal of power is lost as heat.

You are very right about it. It was just a topic to debate. This is my own opinion to go for efficiency no mater what, because the electric power that is consumed must not be lost in less efficient motor. Moreover, I will try to get my hands on a Lipo4 battery pack which i will make with the cells I've shown in the my earlier post. Could you tell me what is the load current capacity of these cells (used in laptop batteries). As they are quite abundent and a running item in the market. I will definately need a whole lot of them to make the required pack. This will be in my favour as greater the number lesser the price.

With warm regards
Naeem

 

[amberwolf]

Tell me; would this motor be efficient than the Permanent magnet brushed motor i'm currently using in my very low cost electric bike. Can you do any math in this please?

I'm not so great with the math stuff, but I'm pretty sure that the multiphase brushless alternator would be more efficient even with a brushed field than the brushed single-phase fan motor, simply because the brushes on the field of the alternator motor are not dealing with a lot of current, compared to the brushes on the single-phase fan motor. I do not know what the percentage difference might be, but I expect it is significant.

 

[fechter]

The field coil in an alternator typically runs around 2A. If the total input is 20A, that would be a 10% loss.
Another issue with alternators is the iron laminations are quite thick and not made of the best steel, which adds more loss.

Between sensored and sensorless motors, all else being equal, the efficiency would be about the same. A sensored motor will work better at startup from a dead stop. The percent of time spent in this condition it typically quite small.

 

[numberonebikeslover]

Between sensored and sensorless motors, all else being equal, the efficiency would be about the same. A sensored motor will work better at startup from a dead stop. The percent of time spent in this condition it typically quite small.

My respectable friend;
Your response of one sentence is equal to my research study on the internet for whole month. Thank you very much for increasing my knowledge.
As a brushless motor goes at higher rpms could we make this sensorless motor in a situation where the gearing ratio is very high (1:30) inorder to give the motor a chance to start up easily without much effort. I think that it would make it more useful in stop and start situation of traffic? Moreover, it will also enable the motor to produce high torque at the end of wheel but low speeds (may be not more than 40km/hr which I intend to reach).

Respectfully
Naeem

 

[numberonebikeslover]

Dear All;

Yesterday I injured my self while picking a very heavy UPS in my house. Now I'm for the moment restricted to bed. This also gave me time to use my imagination.

The idea of using a small engine (about 70 to 100 cc) as source to run an efficient homemade alternator for generating some of electric energy in the electric rickshaw was already there but it came to surface while seeing this:
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Plug-In-Hybrid-Car/
It will definately extend my range and make the rickshaw a hybrid one. An idea I want to share with all of you and would like feedback about is:
If the alternator run by the engine produce three phase AC not 220 for the charger to charge the batteries but instead equal to the amount of 3 phase ac voltage needed by the battery. Because I think the charger also lose precious electrical energy in the form of heat generated.
I've seen on the internet wind turbines which do not require more rpm to produce required energy and as the rpm increase so the power generated also. Electric voltage regulator could be designed inorder for batteries to be safe or the rpm could be adjusted so that it should remain in the safe range.

Your precious feedback will be highly appreciated.

Respectfully
Naeem

 

[Gordo]

Hello Naeem;
You have many factors to consider. With the pure ICE Rickshaw it is necessary to run 10-12 hours per day to make a living. At the current fuel price of $1US per liter, you say they can't make a living. With an Electric model perhaps you only need to run 6-8 hours per day to earn the same amount of revenue? If you eliminate gas costs, and add in electricity costs, you have a different equation. What do you calculate for net income of ICE vs EV?
A second thought is that of using the funds needed for a scooter engine, alternator and related hardware on more cells, needs to be calculated into your plan. What is the effect of the additional weight of making a hybrid? Noise, smell, carrying fuel? License?
We do not know your distance or terrain, so it is hard to advise on a hybrid. KISS and rethink the need to duplicate the range, area of operation and operating hours of an ICE Rickshaw? Is it possible to limit the area to mostly flat land? Can one build up a regular clientele in a given area? Is there an advantage of being and quiet? Can this advantage be exploited? Are there any areas where the ICE is banned? Is there a regular messenger service or small parcel service needed in your area? Consider all alternatives to just a people mover?

Maybe these question seem out of place? I once owned and operated large refrigerated trucks. $120,000 rigs which ran with two drivers 20 hours per day. Then I was injured and could not load 15,000Kgs every day. I bought a small $16,000 truck which carried 2500Kgs in insulated boxes and much to my surprise, driving 5 hours per day, using $27 worth of fuel vs $150+, plus all the other costs, my gross income was half but my net income was almost double. I quickly bought another identical truck and sold the big rigs.

ps. The fellow you linked to at instructables is an idiot. He has a totally dangerous and illegal system of an ICE in a passenger area and an LPG tank both in the passenger area and not vented to the outside. An ICE and fuel must be separated from passengers by a sealed metal firewall, vented to the atmosphere. That installation is about as insane as one can get. This should not be allowed to be published for safety reasons.

 

[Gordo]

The field coil in an alternator typically runs around 2A. If the total input is 20A, that would be a 10% loss.
Another issue with alternators is the iron laminations are quite thick and not made of the best steel, which adds more loss.

Between sensored and sensorless motors, all else being equal, the efficiency would be about the same. A sensored motor will work better at startup from a dead stop. The percent of time spent in this condition it typically quite small.

Not to nit pik but "all else being equal" needs to be looked at? If we start by looking at a 10,000 rpm RC motor vs a hubmotor, nothing else is equal. So what do we get for efficiency when we compare the two? What does the graph look like when the hub is turning 50, 100, 200 rpm and the RC is providing the same vehicle speed through sprockets and chains? What are the watts being used to move the same weight? Is the efficiency really the same?

 

[fechter]

My point was that for a given motor, the difference in efficiency between running it sensored vs. sensorless won't be much.

Sensored will be better for starting a heavy load from a complete stop.

The comparison of highly geared, high rpm motor vs. a direct drive hub motor is a different animal.

 

[Gordo]

My point was that for a given motor, the difference in efficiency between running it sensored vs. sensorless won't be much.

Sensored will be better for starting a heavy load from a complete stop.

The comparison of highly geared, high rpm motor vs. a direct drive hub motor is a different animal.

I think that is also embedded in Naeem's question? He is looking for a cheap, locally available motor of any description and having to juggle the cost of one vs efficiency on the other alternatives. I certainly do not know enough to say exactly what he needs, but I would use 2 hub motors for this Rickshaw. I can afford to make a mistake. He can't. Heck, overvolting an abandoned golfcart with 20 X 200Ah TS cells would probably make a cheap, screaming, good, Rickshaw. They just don't putt all that much around Pershawa.