Electric Streamliner

Drunkskunk said:
Your dream can be made real, but I think your budget is going to stay a dream. Start at $15,000 if you want to do it on the cheap. Its probably going to cost a whole lot more to do it well.
Click to expand...

That budget would be more appropriate. For the sake of aerodynamic how about something like this:

[youtube]HUEvCakq8mU[/youtube]
 
What about a structural tub-style frame where the chassis does all the structural work.

Then skin it in thin kevlar fabric or thick neoprene depending on the weather conditions. Make the various skin sections modular.
Like a more enclosed version of the Hase recumbents.
hase-bikes-klimax-5.jpg
 
The monotracer is an interesting vehicle but I think the landing gear mechanism would be too complicated for me to replicate. Overall the vehicle is too big, heavy and expensive.

I agree that a tubular frame would be most practical and conventional like a gokart.

I don't know how I'd spend $15,000. Maybe if I had a bunch of people build it for me (gouging me in the process).
 
In USD $1k high efficiency drive system (motor/controller), $1k of battery (salvaged from an EV car pack), $1k of construction materials. That leaves you with $2k of room for solid light moto specific parts (maybe a used already registered frame as a shortcut), a Cycle Analyst, and cost overruns. Talk to member Bluefang about the engineer approval process down there, since he's been thru it for an electric moto conversion. Bring a bit of frugality to the equation and EVs can be done incredibly cheap and still obtain all your goals except that 60kg weight.

A significant concern could be legal vehicle requirements such as seat height that could make a bike/trike so low something you can't get approved.

A leaning delta trike is fairly straight forward in design that allows a very narrow build (important for aerodynamics), and a simple lean lock mechanism gives you the stationary stability you'll want without needing to put your feet down. Member Willow, also down under, has higher seated delta leaner he designed as a Postie electric replacement, and he might be able to offer some design advice.
 
John in CR said:
In USD $1k high efficiency drive system (motor/controller), $1k of battery (salvaged from an EV car pack), $1k of construction materials. That leaves you with $2k of room for solid light moto specific parts (maybe a used already registered frame as a shortcut), a Cycle Analyst, and cost overruns. Talk to member Bluefang about the engineer approval process down there, since he's been thru it for an electric moto conversion. Bring a bit of frugality to the equation and EVs can be done incredibly cheap and still obtain all your goals except that 60kg weight.

A significant concern could be legal vehicle requirements such as seat height that could make a bike/trike so low something you can't get approved.

A leaning delta trike is fairly straight forward in design that allows a very narrow build (important for aerodynamics), and a simple lean lock mechanism gives you the stationary stability you'll want without needing to put your feet down. Member Willow, also down under, has higher seated delta leaner he designed as a Postie electric replacement, and he might be able to offer some design advice.
Click to expand...

Cost will be considerable challenge. What good is a vehicle with no on going costs if it costs $1,000,000 up front.

Minimum vehicle ground clearance is 10cm. So seat height could be 10cm + butt protection (lol). Headlights have to be 50cm from the ground (mounted to wheel fairing possible).

I think tilting would be too complicated (complicated = expensive). Also I could mount headlights and indicators to the two front wheel fairings.
 
A leaning delta trike is actually quite simple and could take multiple forms of leaning, and lean lock could be as easy as a locking brake.

As far as headlights go, I'd definitely stay away from having 2 (a left and right) unless your vehicle is the width of a car. 2 that are spaced closer together will give the appearance of being farther than you really are.

FWIW a $5k budget would be simple to pull off a high performance, high efficiency 2 or 3 wheel vehicle unless you don't have construction ability and need to pay to get the work done.
 
John in CR said:
In USD $1k high efficiency drive system (motor/controller), $1k of battery (salvaged from an EV car pack), $1k of construction materials. That leaves you with $2k of room for solid light moto specific parts (maybe a used already registered frame as a shortcut), a Cycle Analyst, and cost overruns. Talk to member Bluefang about the engineer approval process down there, since he's been thru it for an electric moto conversion. Bring a bit of frugality to the equation and EVs can be done incredibly cheap and still obtain all your goals except that 60kg weight.

A significant concern could be legal vehicle requirements such as seat height that could make a bike/trike so low something you can't get approved.

A leaning delta trike is fairly straight forward in design that allows a very narrow build (important for aerodynamics), and a simple lean lock mechanism gives you the stationary stability you'll want without needing to put your feet down. Member Willow, also down under, has higher seated delta leaner he designed as a Postie electric replacement, and he might be able to offer some design advice.
Click to expand...

Have you build something like that for 5k? I mean not some used bike somehow made to go like rocket and with no guarantee if you stay alive? Velo guys should chime in to get this on the ground.
1k for drive system? Nonsense, there is not only controller and motor. You need wheels, tyres, hubs, chains, sprockets, shocks, steering components, specialty hardware, etc, etc.
1k for battery to go 160km at 110km/h - nonsense, show me one, must be light ;)
1k for materials - maybe, but then he talks about efficiency and all the gear and materials should be at least above average. Not for sub 60kg, not even close.
Oh, and then there is legal stuff, and that will cost.
For the given parameters, not in a million years for 5k.
You list the cost to build a vehicle like Amberwolf's trike :D
 
agniusm said:
John in CR said:
In USD $1k high efficiency drive system (motor/controller), $1k of battery (salvaged from an EV car pack), $1k of construction materials. That leaves you with $2k of room for solid light moto specific parts (maybe a used already registered frame as a shortcut), a Cycle Analyst, and cost overruns. Talk to member Bluefang about the engineer approval process down there, since he's been thru it for an electric moto conversion. Bring a bit of frugality to the equation and EVs can be done incredibly cheap and still obtain all your goals except that 60kg weight.

A significant concern could be legal vehicle requirements such as seat height that could make a bike/trike so low something you can't get approved.

A leaning delta trike is fairly straight forward in design that allows a very narrow build (important for aerodynamics), and a simple lean lock mechanism gives you the stationary stability you'll want without needing to put your feet down. Member Willow, also down under, has higher seated delta leaner he designed as a Postie electric replacement, and he might be able to offer some design advice.
Click to expand...

Have you build something like that for 5k? I mean not some used bike somehow made to go like rocket and with no guarantee if you stay alive? Velo guys should chime in to get this on the ground.
1k for drive system? Nonsense, there is not only controller and motor. You need wheels, tyres, hubs, chains, sprockets, shocks, steering components, specialty hardware, etc, etc.
1k for battery to go 160km at 110km/h - nonsense, show me one, must be light ;)
1k for materials - maybe, but then he talks about efficiency and all the gear and materials should be at least above average. Not for sub 60kg, not even close.
Oh, and then there is legal stuff, and that will cost.
For the given parameters, not in a million years for 5k.
You list the cost to build a vehicle like Amberwolf's trike :D
Click to expand...

Building an AW trike would have the same budget he lives with, low hundreds of dollars. While I haven't built one yet, I do have one with a lot in common in its early build stage with $3k budgeted, though I do have some of the suspension and miscellaneous parts already. The difference is mine needs a 280km range but geared for a bit lower speeds. I've built enough watercraft (a velo shell isn't much more than an upside down catamaran hull) and steel is so cheap, that $1k is generous for the main construction. I've gotten automotive engineered battery packs for under $200/kwh on multiple occasions, and it requires only research and patience, so a $1k battery is simple. When it comes to being enclosed in an impossible to quickly escape vehicle, there's no way I'd go with a DIY pack of new cells instead of an over-engineered automotive pack with already proven thru time and use cells and connections, just to save a few kilos, so a salvage pack has more benefits than just cost. An electric drive system consists of a motor and controller combo, and $1k is right on target for the only one I know of that meets SaladFish's requirements, especially at the higher weight I believe is required. That's leave $2k to get it done, so he just needs to be frugal to beat the budget.

As far as your snide remarks about my bikes are concerned, you suffer from an all-to-common mistake...that beauty equals build quality. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate engineering artwork, but beauty is low on my priority list. All the ebikes I've shared on the forum have been only experiments in progress that are intentionally ugly for theft protection and to keep them simple to mod. For 7 years they've been at the leading edge of performance, and despite their thrown together look they've been absolutely solid, safe, and dependable vehicles. Other than my very first "kit bike" they've all been 100kph capable, and my daily rider for 3.5 years is capable of over 170kph, so they have to be tough. Sure I blew a box full of controllers pushing the limits early on, but since 2010 I've enjoyed absolute dependability, so I must be getting the engineering right.
 
You talk about your understanding and what you did or did not but the man here clearly has hes goals stated:
Goals of this vehicle will be as follows.
1) Comfortable seat
2) Light weight (<60kg)
3) Parking and filtering practical
4) highway capable 110km/h up 5% grade
5) Range 160km at 110km/h
6) Inexpensive (I'm designing a practical vehicle not a rich man's toy).
7) Reliable (built to last >100,000km)
8) Reverse switch (Flintstoning won't work well with fairing).

also:

Meeting requirements of legality, reliability, safety, cost and comfort are important.

So what you describe might be true from your point of view, it certainly does not qualify for hes goals.

It will have to be tidy, with tidy welds, tidy body and look like proper vehicle and not pile of scraps put together to pass inspections to be roar worthy.

Don't get me wrong, i like scrap being turned into something usable, reused, re-purposed, but what he wants just does not seem possible. Even we have milder regulations here and its almost impossible to register a self made vehicle.
 
This guy is an aussie, do not underestimate what he is capable of producing :wink:

Pac-2 whaaaaa? 12550+mpg equivelent? Is my math right?

Amongst the challendes to this build, my biggest hurdle would be getting all the equipment positioned in accordence with the states vehicle codes, height of lights off the road surface, & host of grey launguage to be interpreted by the inspector.
Lots of back & forth on what constitues a wind screen & when it requires a mechanical wiper....(thanks auto lobby!)

Prolly a magnatude easy'r in the state of MI. Than in some area's of the usa & abroad. (Getting 3-wheeled ATV's street licenced as motorcycles was commomplace in the mid 80's here)

Then blending them into a vehicle that will deliver the rest of the parameters in order of importance, My latest iteration of a 3 season vehicle would be a delta, leaning w/ both rear wheels powered.
I for one am waiting in anticapation for this to get into fabrcation...rooting for a functional prototype to show up sooner than later.
 
www.recumbents.com said:
You will probably be looking at something like the PAC-Car II:



25830.jpg


-Warren
Click to expand...

I understand that eco-marathon is an educational competition but these claims of energy efficiency at such slow speeds (30km per hour) are so far removed from actual human motorized transportation that I think it is a silly competition. Maybe if they had to go 100km per hour then it would be relatable to regular people who drive on high ways. I theorise that shell does not want these kids building legitimate road worthy vehicles because it would threaten the petroleum business. Better to have the kids build glorified billy karts. Edit: Billy karts (gravity racer) are much faster than eco-marathon.

/rant

Here is a solar car trying to get road registered in Australia. http://www.pozible.com/project/188925#updates

I think they have failed to pull it off otherwise they would be on the road by now. Cool idea though.
 
Obviously I wish those UNSW students success, together with your own project SaladFish.
But you will all have to accept that building an efficient, road legal, practical, EV.....is very different to building an EV to set world records.
 
I was just on the phone with an engineer about getting an electric motorcycle on the road he gave me a quote of $5,000, possibly $7,000. More for three wheels due to stability testing. This cost is prohibitive.

Ongoing cost of my cbr125r is $5.94 per week.
$5,000 paid off over 10 years is $9.62 per week.

It is regretful that it is not economically rational to make an efficient electric vehicle in Australia due to the red tape.

Warren said:
Check out the sweet four wheeler.

http://www.velomobiel.nl/quattrovelo/

http://www.velomobiel.nl/quattrovelo/maatschets.php

http://www.velomobiel.nl/quattrovelo/technische_gegevens.php

http://www.velomobiel.nl/video/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sdhjs7zbrs
Click to expand...

That looks pretty cool.
 
Check with member Bluefang. He got an emoto registered, and I'm sure the engineers signoff didn't cost anywhere near that amount. I'd look into starting with a road registered motorcycle and mod the heck out of it to turn it into what you want.
 
Have you seen Allert Jacobs streamliner?
http://www.velomobiel.nl/allert/Recumbent%20motorbike.htm
It is ICE powered but could be easily applied to an electric bike as well.
 
How about Koen Van de Kerckhove's recumbent electric scooter? Images are on the last half of this page.

http://www.bikeweb.com/image/tid/146

His interests seem to parallel mine over the last 40 years...only he's actually achieved many of them.

http://www.nestofdragons.net/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c014BoTLE24
 
I think that your vehicle concept is very doable, but the red tape you have to deal with will be the most difficult obstacle to surmount.

The vehicle will likely require a lightweight/strong monocoque of some expensive composite, which can easily bring you out of budget in materials. A well-engineered custom built steel frame with integrated roll cage may allow this build to be possible on a budget if you know what you're doing and put it together yourself, but now you're looking at hundreds(maybe thousands) of hours of design work. You will want it to be safe, after all, let alone just getting everything to work. The steel frame plus integrated roll cage could easily come in at 20-30 kg by itself, and you still need good, durable tires/rims/brakes/suspension/ect to go on it as well as your electric drive system.

I would recommend a custom-built frame, motorcycle/moped/scooter rims with regulation-compliant tires of as low rolling resistance as can be found(0.01 Crr and under will be very hard to find, most MC tires are over Crr 0.02), having a cage structure integrated into the frame to protect the rider, then throwing some kind of functional body skin over it of as little weight/drag as possible. Do not skimp on weight with regard to the frame and roll cage. Make them as heavy as they need to be for your desired amount/type of safety. Use bicycle parts where it makes sense, which is certainly NOT in the drivetrain or other load-bearing components. A lightweight e-bike motor to push it at highway speeds, on the other hand, makes a lot of sense, as does examining setups used in very fast ebikes, motors that may not have even been intended for bikes. As an example of a motor not originally intended for bikes, twin AstroFlight 3220s would only weigh 10 lbs, and with proper gearing and some active cooling, would run nice and cool once their RPMs are high. They'd reliably make about 15 peak mechanical kW put together, easily much more than 2 kW continuous(which is all you will need at top speed), which would make this vehicle accelerate rapidly due to its low weight, maybe 0-100 kmh in under 6 seconds if you got enough traction. A Lynch/Agni motor is probably expensive overkill, although their efficiency numbers are hard to match or beat.

You will have to consider each and every component for its impact on all of the others and select each by analyzing its impact on the vehicle's dynamics, and make every last gram of weight count for something functional and necessary to achieving the desired build specification. You will also have to keep in mind ergonomic constraints as well.

If you do everything yourself, it could end up being more an issue of time than money, even though it gets very easy to spend way more money than you intended.

But, the expensive red tape remains an issue, in any event. Best of luck. I don't think it's impossible, so don't give up.

My vehicle idea in mind has a lot of similarities to yours, and I've quite literally spent hundreds of hours alone just thinking about components and how they will work together, on top of hundreds of hours spent designing and/or building components/systems. In my case, red tape is minimal, because it will legally be a "bicycle."
 
There is much wisdom from the hevyweights on this thread. Two points deserve special note.

1. You can kill yourself with handling issues for this vehicle. Drunkskunk's advice to start with an existing chassis might also let you sort out the vehicle geometry with the old gas engine before choosing the electric system. Test the handling well at slowly increased speeds.

2. Dont worry about efficiency. Upgrade the battery or add a fairing later. You want it to be practical, and whrs per mile doesnt count for that much in the practical world.

The OP has made a good choice to abort given the regulations there.
 
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