ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION DELTA /WYE and SERIE/PAPALLEL stator

[rkosiorek]

how did you manage to blow it? that must have been some serious abuse it went through.

was it stalled and then the wiring overheated? were the magnets damaged y the heat? (magnets can be destroyed by heat)

rick

 

[methods]

I ran 100V with 220A current limit for 6 months
One day I decided to do wheelies around the block for 10Ah
Got a little hot.....



-methods

 

[rkosiorek]

wow - that is rightly fried. i'm surprised the magnets are still glued in place.

have you tested the magnet? are they still magnets?

rick

 

[methods]

Lets take it off line so nobody goes postal due to OT

-methods

 

[mhz128]

Methods!

Can we see some pic's of your dual 9C setup? I'm diein' to see that beast in action!


Have a nice day,
Peace!

 

[methods]

Right now I only have the rear 9x7 9C on there with 24S lipo and one of my 18 fet controllers.

My front forks rolled right open from running a 10x6 @ 100V.
I still have not ridden the bike in 2WD mode.
I have hit over 50mph on only the front 10x6 and I can pull hard on only the rear 9x7

Give me some time to make a new front fork.

-methods

P.S. - Picture: The cruiser on the right is mine. That has the rear 9x7. The front 10x6 is on my wifes walmart bike. I have another front 9x7 in the hobby room waiting to go on the front of the cruiser. I have another 18 fet controller and (you can see in that picture) my new 24S 2P 10Ah 88.8V lipo pack.

Sooon....

 

[mwkeefer]

Hey all,

Can someone confirm this for me...

1.) Rated current / 3 = what we will have in current in phases? This would mean each branch of an automatic delta / wye switch (thinking of it in terms of 6 DPDT relays) would only need to be capable of handling the Maximum Rated Current / 3 (in Delta - Maximum Rated Current * 1.73 / 3)?

Im just making sure I understand what I'm about to fire up before applying power to it (hopefully it won't be FIRE UP - LED tests work fine)... so if my Rated Current was configured for 30A then each phase would need to pass 10A (or is it 2 phases energized at once for 15A per phase energized?) or if I was using a 50A modified limiter would my delta / wye switch need to conduct 50A per leg or... 50A / 3 or 50A / 2... Ive been working on this so hard... im confused.

2.) If we allow 22a for wye mode... we should (if possible) allow for 22 * 1.73 = for 38.06 A?

Thanks in advance for this little sanity check... should have a video shortly.

-Mike

 

[tostino]

My understanding of all this could be wrong, but what I know, is that the KV of the motor changes by 1.73x. That doesn't mean in delta at any given speed, the amps will be 1.73x what they are in wye.
If you have a controller that limits you to 30a, that is only battery limited. At a dead start, the phase current can be many times that, probably closer to 70a. It doesn't matter if you are in wye, or delta, you will see that same high current from a dead start. Wye will just get out of the current limited portion quicker, because your top speed is lower, where Delta will keep pulling until it is current limited, or you have reached top speed for that KV.

I am actually pretty tired tonight, and probably should just scrap this post and let others who understand this better to begin with, and aren't as tired as I am answer you... But i might as well let you see my dumb thoughts, on the off chance they are applicable.

 

[mwkeefer]

Thanks!

What I am trying to ask is 2 fold, let me try wording it better.

1.) If we run wye mode at 30A and "are able" to change current limit on the fly, automatically then we would want to allow for 1.73 X the wye current to acheive maximum potential benefit of delta mode - higher RPM are going to require higher currents to overcome resistance, wind, hills, etc?

For argument sake, say I have a way (i do, i think) to dynamically alter the infineon current limit by essentially bridging over it using a FET as a simple variable shunt bypass.
If eagle tree is right... I've figured out the proper gate signal to cause sufficient voltage to pass that I go from 30A max to 45A when i drive the gates to pass current.

2.) So Phase Current is going to be whatever maximum I set in designer but... that's divided across 2 or 3 ways? Phase current is at 75 right now but I suppose I could run it at 50A if it divides 2 ways since my SCR are rated for constant 25A (I have 6 of em dpdt)?

Thanks for the help either way - I should cut out of here too.. no sleep, working all night and then all day today = )

Mike

 

[ZapPat]

So Phase Current is going to be whatever maximum I set in designer but... that's divided across 2 or 3 ways? Phase current is at 75 right now but I suppose I could run it at 50A if it divides 2 ways since my SCR are rated for constant 25A (I have 6 of em dpdt)?

Mike, your D/Y relays have to be rated for your full phase current, not divided by two or anything. That said, if you use mecanical relays you could probably overamp them a fair amount before the contacts burn up. I don't know much about SCRs though, but they may produce more heat than a regular relay which may be a problem if they're inside the motor.

 

[rkosiorek]

hate to state the obvious but SCRs are DC devices and act like rectifiers when conducting.

you need an AC device like a triac for the motor phases. the controllers have both high side and low side FET switches to alternatetly switch the phase connection from the B+ and the B-.

rick

 

[ZapPat]

hate to state the obvious but SCRs are DC devices and act like rectifiers when conducting.

you need an AC device like a triac for the motor phases. the controllers have both high side and low side FET switches to alternatetly switch the phase connection from the B+ and the B-.

rick

I guess that proves that I really don't know much about SCR's!! :lol:

 

[mwkeefer]

Pat - your fine... I meant SSR (Solid State Relays) not SCRs (or Triacs)... Sorry, I get a sloppy in my late night/early am posts... actually to be totally honest, I am dyslexic (that's a bitch of a word for me too... don't know why) and when I get tired my "autopilot" that lets me "function" normally and well (100+ wpm) goes haywire (think of it as a shoot through event at high rpm) and I get crap like delta/wye backwards in my mind or I put out SCR insead of SSR, it's fun at drinking parties/events - how many ways can Mike fuc* up government agency acronyms? FIB, RIA,AIR = FBI IRS... if I just close my eyes and type by touch... it happens. Oh well, not that anyone cares about this (I don't either) but I figured it may help people to just "get" my point better. Not much different than someone who speaks english as a second language.

So pat, I need to be able to handle FULL Phase Current limit value on each of the 3 phases? This won't work with my SSRs, they get hot above 2a without a sink but can't really handle more than 12-15A max nominal current even with massive sinks so - scratch that idea and boy am I glad I didn't try this last night in my semi comatose state.

thanks all for helping me keep my new SSRs from being toasters = )_

-Mike

 

[Affliction]

So I guess there's problems running 5 series chrystalite in this configuration. What about 4 series motors? are they the same as wilderness energy? I have seen videos on youtube while following this thread of a wilderness configured this way. I had a wilderness and it looks identical mostly to my chrystalite 408's. I cruise at 40 kph at 48 volts with my dual hub setup. I love the cycle analyst mod and the suggestion of using cat 5
as you have 8 wires to work with now for internal hub switching. I allready have all the parts to do this mod (mostly unintentional). I have half width automotive 12v relays which I stripped off a 98 windstar van; got a whole bunch almost a dozen! These are double throw as needed
for this. they will fit easilly strapped to the stator in my motors.
I'm just curious before I attempt it as this is my daily driver for 365 days a year!

 

[SilverSurfer]

I love this thread, I WILL be doing this for a motor for the Rapture bike. havent bought the hub yet! By the end of this week I should have eneough for a bute! I was thinking maybe of the Phoenix Brute. Im expecting to push it with 48 volts and 90 amps. 4320 watts. Dang that number goes up fast!

 

[karma]

the wilderness energy motor in delta works. :wink:

 

[paultrafalgar]

gui13 have you a web link (URL) for the" Phebus rally"?

 

[SilverSurfer]

the wilderness energy motor in delta works. :wink:

Wilderness comes in front only, and only in 600 watts. Am I wrong about that? I absolutely have to have a rear drive, and it needs to pull over 3000watts dependably. My golden 1000 has been holding up great! Maxing at 105 to 110 amps, from a 54v fresh pack, and pulling 60 amps regularly for long stretchs. No problems at all. Im thinking this is temporary, thats why Im building a better system while I drive! Im trying to get my new super 48v system done before my golden motor takes a smoke break!

by the way, been a subscriber to your videos for long time! Great stuff! Thanks for all the work.

 

[rkosiorek]

while cleaning some stuff out of my storage unit i came across part of an old experiment. originally this was planned for rear drive wheel of an electrathon tadpole trike. so far i only came across one of the stators. but i'm sure that i will eventually find the covers and rotor/rim.

since for some reason the Crystalyte X5 works pooly as a Delta-Wye i tried a different route. this 5302 was re-wound so that there are 2 windings on each pole with 2 turns each. if i take the 2 windings and connect them in series i end up with 4 turns (2 + 2)per pole and a 5304 motor. if i connect the same windings in parallel i end up with a 2 turn motor with heavier windings. now bringing out 12 wires through the bearing is sort of impossible, so i wanted to add internal relays to do the switching. the result is this 5304/5302 Series/Parallel motor.



it actually takes 6 relays. in this early motor i used 30A automotive control relays. i had to enlarge the open areas in the stator slightly to make room for them.



for all practical purposes the relay contacts are in parallel for each phase. 2 relay contacts in parallel carry the load. this effectively doubles the current carrying capacity of a single relay or approx 60 amps at the rated 28VDC for the pair. the AC rating would be higher as any arc is suppressed with each reversal of the AC phase voltage. as with all contacts the carry current is much higher than the switched current. meaning that it should be safe to use with a 50/60 amp controller at 48V. although i have not tortured these relays as severly as steveo or the good DoctorBass might and they had very few miles on them, so far they have worked reliably.

this was my first attempt. the refined version used 50A hermetically sealed "marine" relays. but that stator is still buried somewhere in storage. when i find the rest of the parts for the motor i will add a couple of pictures.

rick

 

[rkosiorek]

and more on topic here are a threesome of those 50A hermetically sealed relays mounted internally in a 2807 motor to do the Delta-Wye switching.



these relays are quite small and the 9C stator only required the web holes to be enlarged slightly for them to fit.

this actually works quite well. i have shifted it under load with no ill effect.

rick

 

[rkosiorek]

gui13 have you a web link (URL) for the" Phebus rally"?

http://www.rallyesolaire.eu/

it's the european solar rally and has been held annualy since 2000.

rick

 

[Doctorbass]

while cleaning some stuff out of my storage unit i came across part of an old experiment. originally this was planned for rear drive wheel of an electrathon tadpole trike. so far i only came across one of the stators. but i'm sure that i will eventually find the covers and rotor/rim.

since for some reason the Crystalyte X5 works pooly as a Delta-Wye i tried a different route. this 5302 was re-wound so that there are 2 windings on each pole with 2 turns each. if i take the 2 windings and connect them in series i end up with 4 turns (2 + 2)per pole and a 5304 motor. if i connect the same windings in parallel i end up with a 2 turn motor with heavier windings. now bringing out 12 wires through the bearing is sort of impossible, so i wanted to add internal relays to do the switching. the result is this 5304/5302 Series/Parallel motor.

View attachment 2

it actually takes 6 relays. in this early motor i used 30A automotive control relays. i had to enlarge the open areas in the stator slightly to make room for them.

View attachment 1

for all practical purposes the relay contacts are in parallel for each phase. 2 relay contacts in parallel carry the load. this effectively doubles the current carrying capacity of a single relay or approx 60 amps at the rated 28VDC for the pair. the AC rating would be higher as any arc is suppressed with each reversal of the AC phase voltage. as with all contacts the carry current is much higher than the switched current. meaning that it should be safe to use with a 50/60 amp controller at 48V. although i have not tortured these relays as severly as steveo or the good DoctorBass might and they had very few miles on them, so far they have worked reliably.

this was my first attempt. the refined version used 50A hermetically sealed "marine" relays. but that stator is still buried somewhere in storage. when i find the rest of the parts for the motor i will add a couple of pictures.

rick

You did a VERY clean and nice job!!! :wink:

Congrat!

Q1: Can you describe what is your feeling when switching from 5304 to 5302?

Q2: Had you ever experienced some fear about the danger of switching back to 5304 when you are at full speed? ( the back EMF is alot higher than the controller speed... since you accelerate using 02... then 04... then stabilize then switch back to 04...

Q3.. Are these relay spdt? or normal spst? where do you got them?.. ( I actually have 10 SPDT of the same size BUT rated 70A..!)

did you measured the KV difference or no load speed difference for each mode?

Great find about not using plastic tie rap and replacing bu something that hold better high temp!

Q4: What is the max peak and continuous power did you used with it?

Q5: When you say you re-wound this 5302, do you mean you really removed the winding and re-wound it by yourself with all the patience it need?? or that you just reconnected or divided the winding seperate phase wire into different group for parallel-serie?

Q6: could you try it on a 5303 or 5304? if not.. why is it possible?.. I mean cuting the 5304 winding from 3 group to 6 group is not fesable?


Again... i must say.. You did a great job!

Doc

 

[rkosiorek]

You did a VERY clean and nice job!!! :wink:

Congrat!

Q1: Can you describe what is your feeling when switching from 5304 to 5302?

like a runner getting his second wind. in 5304 mode using 48V it would pull reasonably hard up to 20kph and start running out of steam at 25kph. switch to 02 mode and it would continue to pull hard up to 45kph. after 45kph it would still accelerate, but not as quickly. remember i was using 48V 33Ahr SLA batteries.

Q2: Had you ever experienced some fear about the danger of switching back to 5304 when you are at full speed? ( the back EMF is alot higher than the controller speed... since you accelerate using 02... then 04... then stabilize then switch back to 04...

you actually slow down when switiching from 5302 to 5304. just like mild regen braking. the high voltage and speed dissipates quickly. it is a very transient thing. just like in a car you learn not to downshift from full speed. roll off the throttle, slow a bit and then flick the switch for 5304 mode.

the controller was an analog Crystalyte V1 - 12fet with 4110 mosfets. the limit was set to 50A by modifying the error amp. in practice it worked out to closer to 60A. but with the SLA batteries i could draw the 50 - 60A at full voltage for only a short period of time hot off the charger. after a few minutes at high current draws the voltage would sag down to 40V limiting the available power. the combination of 100V fets and limiting the battery to 48V i did not think that i would nave a big problem. and i didn't.

Q3.. Are these relay spdt? or normal spst? where do you got them?.. ( I actually have 10 SPDT of the same size BUT rated 70A..!)

did you measured the KV difference or no load speed difference for each mode?

Great find about not using plastic tie rap and replacing bu something that hold better high temp!

i never measured the Kv it was more of a seat of the pants thing in those days. the relays are SPDT. i bought them as a liqidation item on eBay. but it sounds as if you have better relays.

Q4: What is the max peak and continuous power did you used with it?

peak power was over 2.9Kw according to the old Drain Brain i was using then. it was the latest thing when i was using it though. that was during hard acceleration. average power while cruising around the track was 750W. in electrathon the idea is to see how far you can go using 73lbs worth of SLA batteries. you want to keep the motor running in a peak zone.

Q5: When you say you re-wound this 5302, do you mean you really removed the winding and re-wound it by yourself with all the patience it need?? or that you just reconnected or divided the winding seperate phase wire into different group for parallel-serie?

the one in the pictures was actually rewound. after i had baked it and sheared off one side i had one of those miraculous visions. like long past the point of no return. i realised that the 5302 used 8 strands of wire. if i separated them and isolated them into 2 sets of 4 wires each.... the second motor was done that way.this was done back in 2005/2006 before my accident. after the accident i lost my rented workspace. not having anyplace to keep them, the second motor and the frame were donated to a local school for them to use. the did use the frame but with a different motor. that motor is MIA. i wish i knew where it ended up.

Q6: could you try it on a 5303 or 5304? if not.. why is it possible?.. I mean cuting the 5304 winding from 3 group to 6 group is not fesable?

i don't see why not. last year, when we traded my 5302 (that you used on your infamous drag strip run) for your 5304 that was the first thing that came to mind. making a 5308/5304. but i was concerned about the powerful cogging/ vibration at low rpm in 5308 mode. definitetly need torque arms for that.

in your case a 5306/5303 might be a better drag racer. but only if you could find relays adequate to the task that would still fit inside the case. 150A is a lot of carrying current. but the low speed coging of the 5306 would be rough but acceptable.

Again... i must say.. You did a great job!

Doc

thanks,
rick

 

[steveo]

You did a VERY clean and nice job!!! :wink:

Congrat!

Q1: Can you describe what is your feeling when switching from 5304 to 5302?

like a runner getting his second wind. in 5304 mode using 48V it would pull reasonably hard up to 20kph and start running out of steam at 25kph. switch to 02 mode and it would continue to pull hard up to 45kph. after 45kph it would still accelerate, but not as quickly. remember i was using 48V 33Ahr SLA batteries.

Q2: Had you ever experienced some fear about the danger of switching back to 5304 when you are at full speed? ( the back EMF is alot higher than the controller speed... since you accelerate using 02... then 04... then stabilize then switch back to 04...

you actually slow down when switiching from 5302 to 5304. just like mild regen braking. the high voltage and speed dissipates quickly. it is a very transient thing. just like in a car you learn not to downshift from full speed. roll off the throttle, slow a bit and then flick the switch for 5304 mode.

the controller was an analog Crystalyte V1 - 12fet with 4110 mosfets. the limit was set to 50A by modifying the error amp. in practice it worked out to closer to 60A. but with the SLA batteries i could draw the 50 - 60A at full voltage for only a short period of time hot off the charger. after a few minutes at high current draws the voltage would sag down to 40V limiting the available power. the combination of 100V fets and limiting the battery to 48V i did not think that i would nave a big problem. and i didn't.

Q3.. Are these relay spdt? or normal spst? where do you got them?.. ( I actually have 10 SPDT of the same size BUT rated 70A..!)

did you measured the KV difference or no load speed difference for each mode?

Great find about not using plastic tie rap and replacing bu something that hold better high temp!

i never measured the Kv it was more of a seat of the pants thing in those days. the relays are SPDT. i bought them as a liqidation item on eBay. but it sounds as if you have better relays.

Q4: What is the max peak and continuous power did you used with it?

peak power was over 2.9Kw according to the old Drain Brain i was using then. it was the latest thing when i was using it though. that was during hard acceleration. average power while cruising around the track was 750W. in electrathon the idea is to see how far you can go using 73lbs worth of SLA batteries. you want to keep the motor running in a peak zone.

Q5: When you say you re-wound this 5302, do you mean you really removed the winding and re-wound it by yourself with all the patience it need?? or that you just reconnected or divided the winding seperate phase wire into different group for parallel-serie?

the one in the pictures was actually rewound. after i had baked it and sheared off one side i had one of those miraculous visions. like long past the point of no return. i realised that the 5302 used 8 strands of wire. if i separated them and isolated them into 2 sets of 4 wires each.... the second motor was done that way.this was done back in 2005/2006 before my accident. after the accident i lost my rented workspace. not having anyplace to keep them, the second motor and the frame were donated to a local school for them to use. the did use the frame but with a different motor. that motor is MIA. i wish i knew where it ended up.

Q6: could you try it on a 5303 or 5304? if not.. why is it possible?.. I mean cuting the 5304 winding from 3 group to 6 group is not fesable?

i don't see why not. last year, when we traded my 5302 (that you used on your infamous drag strip run) for your 5304 that was the first thing that came to mind. making a 5308/5304. but i was concerned about the powerful cogging/ vibration at low rpm in 5308 mode. definitetly need torque arms for that.

in your case a 5306/5303 might be a better drag racer. but only if you could find relays adequate to the task that would still fit inside the case. 150A is a lot of carrying current. but the low speed coging of the 5306 would be rough but acceptable.

Again... i must say.. You did a great job!

Doc

thanks,
rick

Hey Rick,

as you said me and doc believe x5306 & x5303 would be perfect setup between torque & speed..

I will end up purchasing a x5303 motor to convert to dual winding motor... I just need to figure out how i am to do the relay setup ... I hope to put the relays externally and not internally .. I will also be using a new generation motor .. so the side covers will be more narrorw..

the motor i want to build must be able to take 100 - 150amps max draw .. so those relays will have to be robust ...

very nice work on that x5 ...

-steveo

 

[tostino]

Steevo, my relays in my 9c are taking more than that while accelerating. I beefed them up with solder wick, so they have a little more current carrying capacity than before.

They were automotive spdt 30/40a relays. Nothing at all special.

My bike has a 9c delta/wye with the relays internally. Battery is 51v 28ah Konion pack. Controller is an infinion 12 fet with 4110's, tons of copper on the traces, and a 1.2mOhm shunt to allow 100+a operation.
From a dead stop I pull 115a which quickly drops off as I reach close to no load, then I switch to Delta at about 15-20mph, and I pull 115a again all the way to about 38mph when it begins to taper off and then rests at 37-40a at about 44-45mph.

And keep in mind this is just the amp reading on the CA, the actual amps going to the motor at a dead stop are much higher.