thanks. it loks interseting and is probalby a lto easier than it looks, but i'm so tired right now i dont think i can figure it out. have to wait till alter.
End of the World. Beginning of a new one. The Life of Amberwolf.
- Thread starter amberwolf
- Start date
amberwolf said:Seizures have continued in clusters since the above, sometimes up to an hour apart, as close together as starting stage one while still in stage three.
A few minutes ago I got a video of the middle of stage one, and into stage two, then a separate one of a bit of stage three (which is still going on and could continue for half an hour or more. YT is not cooperating and i"M too tired to care, so it'll be uploaded later.
Stage one is where she arches her back and locks her muscles, jaws open, feet straight out. Jaws clatter (not touching each other, so not sure what exactly makes the sound; don't know if the camera picked it up or not), feet and legs jitter around, etc., from muscle tension. This stage is usually short, a few seconds to maybe a minute.
Then she relaxes from that pretty suddenly and begins "running" in place laying there, and "barking". This stage can go on a while, a few minutes to half an hourish; I lost track of time on the longer ones so dunno exactly.
She's unconcious for both of those.
Then she transitions into a stage three, a possibly semi-aware state that is a continuation of stage two but laying upright instead of on her side, panting heavily with relaxed lolling hanging-out tongue (more like she had strangled than if she was panting normally, whimper-barking almost continously, getting quieter as she gets closer to the end of this stage. If the panting stops, it seems to signal the end of this stage, though she does not always regain control of her tongue at that point.
I don't think she is really concious during stage three, either. Maybe semi-concious...kinda like being half-awake, but even less so. Perhaps like a sleepwalker?
Speakng of which....during stage three, she would get up and wander around, falling and bashing into things, if I didn't have a harness on her to hold her down with. She doesnt' resist the holding down much; and she sort of responds to sounds but not in any normal way, just that she apparently hears them. Even though she appears to be looking around, swivelling her head back and forth, she cannot see anything, though--no reaction at all to motion in a well-lit room, and even her pupils don't react to a flashlight in parts of this stage (but seem to in others). She slightly responds to touch, but again, not in her normal way.
If she passes thru this stage back to a semi-normal state before stage one occurs again, then she can see again, and hears me normally, but she is exhausted at that point and just relaxes and dozes off.
Mostly she doesn't get back to normal before stage one starts up again, and then she goes thru it all over again.
A couple of times she's skipped stage two and gone to three right out of the first one.
If she appears to be normal but is moving her head left and right as if looking around, then she is about to start stage one again, AFAICT.
Externally, she appears to be having greatly exaggerated dream states, as if she was locked into a terrible nightmare and unable to fully wake.
I managed to get her morning meds into her, but not any food yet. She's had water a few times over the night and morning when she's been able to get out of stage three completely, but that never lasts long.
I myself haven't really slept, just dozed here and there for a few minutes at most, with nightmare-filled moments that wake me if she doesn't.
The last one I remember was that Nana was here, rather than Teddy, and she was eating herself--grabbing pieces of flesh down into the muscle, and ripping htem out while howling from pain, eating them, then doing it again, and I couldn't move to stop her.
I didn't read the whole thread but when I saw seizures I had to say something. I have a border collie that has seizures from epilepsy. He's on potassium bromide and phenobarbital. He has been seizure free for well over a year but we went through a LOT getting him to that point. This is a dog that is triggered by falling asleep so he has had nights of 20+ seizures. Full on clusters, losing control of bodily functions, nightmare post Ictal period of barking for hours after...
Lots of trial and error with his meds. One of the things I found that helped us was putting a large bag of ice on his back at the first sign he was about ready to have a seizure. Our pre-seizure procedure is to give him a valium and ice immediately, then when he gets sleepy from the ice (which tells me it's working) he gets a spoonful of Hãagen Dazs (all natural) vanilla ice cream to get his blood sugar back up. I mean I RUN to the freezer to get the ice if I see the ticks or other signs that I know all too well now. Since we have started using the ice he hasn't had another seizure (knock on wood). And I'm talking a big bag of ice for a 80+ lb dog (7 lb bag?). Anyway, the frequency of seizures has gone WAY down since we started doing this and I couldn't even tell you the last time we had to go through it. We're even planning on lowering his meds soon.
I'm not a vet so do your own research but here's where I read about the ice technique:
http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/icepack.htm
Btw, our dog has more problems during a full moon. It's funny, our vet says that's a myth and the ice thing is a myth but I bet she would love the ice thing if she sold prescription ice.
and im glad youdid cuz the ice seems to have worked a little bt so fra.EVTodd said:
pheno is what tiny was on, but teddy is on zonisimide or something like that with valium for preseizure treatment though there is no time to give it to her presiezure cuz the signs are only seconds long. rescue is bringing rectal liquid valium tomorrow from vet so itll work faster than tablets she has now.
afaict teddys are triggered by entering a dream but thats a guessbased on her norml slep pattersn, cuz the last almost-a-day is all ikown about her siezrus.
te barking and leg thrashing, like a puppydream but violent, doesnt last anywhere nar that long for her, and i foudn i cna shorten it by lifting her head and shoulders up from the layingonherside position, which then gets her front legs out in front of her as if she were laying upright with back legs out ot the side. i just hold her harness and lean away from her to use my weight to hold her up, and then its down to a minute or two of this stage, then right into the panting.
this also helsp me get her tongue between the rows of teeth instead of lolling fof the side where it gets bitten as she barks, and i can also keep her from bitng her lips cuz they are saggy and hang into her mouth if her head is on it's side. she's already got at least two good holes thru her right lip/cheek from the fangs on that side, that i've bee n applying generigc neosproning to.
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i keep lots of gel ice packs in the deep freez e for variosu uses, so i just dug a bunch out and packed them around the area you pointed out later in your post. it didnt' seem to do antyhing at first but it may have shortend the barking bit the first time around, and did shroten th epanting before dozing off, and lengthened the dozed off period before the next sizure.
ive got more icepacks in there for later when these get warm.
she ws so asleep this time after ward that i was able to clip her claws and reshave her chest/etc while she was out, getting it about half done before the next siezre started. she hates theese things os might s well do them when she won't know i's happenign.
The second stage (barking/thrashing) is MUCH shorter in the last few hours, but the seizure itself before that (stage 1) is no less. Siezures seem to be happening less often, but I have lost track of them since I'mnot really sleeping, just dozing between them occasionally. (though i got a lot more in the last several hours than i did in the day before that, so i'm not ready to keel over now, unlike when i last posted above).
She has a couple of new bites in her lips and tongue where I couldn't get htem out of the way fast enough and keep them there. Still treating the external ones with the neosporin-type stuff.
Since she's unable to swallow liquids easily without some of it going down the wrong way, I'm using the last two of the subcutaneous fluids bags I had for Tiny that she didnt' get the chance to use.
And since she isn't eating (a few times she has licked at wet food, but isn't really "there" enough most of the time to actually eat it,
I've been giving her sugar water via oral syringein the times after her panting stops but before the next siezure.
Using the icepacks EVTodd suggested, the stage two barking/flailing really shortened up, and the actual sleeping (or at least quiet) time lengthened.
She's more "floppy" during this time, instead of all tensed up, t whether that's because she's more relaxed now from being cooler or if it's because something is wrong, or she's just getting weaker from lack of food, I don't know.
She has a couple of new bites in her lips and tongue where I couldn't get htem out of the way fast enough and keep them there. Still treating the external ones with the neosporin-type stuff.
Since she's unable to swallow liquids easily without some of it going down the wrong way, I'm using the last two of the subcutaneous fluids bags I had for Tiny that she didnt' get the chance to use.
And since she isn't eating (a few times she has licked at wet food, but isn't really "there" enough most of the time to actually eat it,
I've been giving her sugar water via oral syringein the times after her panting stops but before the next siezure.
Using the icepacks EVTodd suggested, the stage two barking/flailing really shortened up, and the actual sleeping (or at least quiet) time lengthened.
She's more "floppy" during this time, instead of all tensed up, t whether that's because she's more relaxed now from being cooler or if it's because something is wrong, or she's just getting weaker from lack of food, I don't know.
amberwolf said:The second stage (barking/thrashing) is MUCH shorter in the last few hours, but the seizure itself before that (stage 1) is no less. Siezures seem to be happening less often, but I have lost track of them since I'mnot really sleeping, just dozing between them occasionally. (though i got a lot more in the last several hours than i did in the day before that, so i'm not ready to keel over now, unlike when i last posted above).
She has a couple of new bites in her lips and tongue where I couldn't get htem out of the way fast enough and keep them there. Still treating the external ones with the neosporin-type stuff.
Since she's unable to swallow liquids easily without some of it going down the wrong way, I'm using the last two of the subcutaneous fluids bags I had for Tiny that she didnt' get the chance to use.
And since she isn't eating (a few times she has licked at wet food, but isn't really "there" enough most of the time to actually eat it,
I've been giving her sugar water via oral syringein the times after her panting stops but before the next siezure.
Using the icepacks EVTodd suggested, the stage two barking/flailing really shortened up, and the actual sleeping (or at least quiet) time lengthened.
She's more "floppy" during this time, instead of all tensed up, t whether that's because she's more relaxed now from being cooler or if it's because something is wrong, or she's just getting weaker from lack of food, I don't know.
Since it's a cluster of seizures it's time to talk to a vet for sure. I think the ice helps a lot (for our dog anyway) to help prevent the seizures or greatly shorten the length of a single one but once they go into a cluster it can be hard to stop. The worst our dog had required a trip to the emergency vet and an iv with the proper meds to stop it.
At the very least call your vet and see what else you can do.
It's a little tough in this situation, as all her vet care is thru the rescue (she's a foster), so I have to let them know what is happening, then they have to get back withe me and let me know what to do or what they're going to bring over or when we'll take her in, if necessary. Her vet (I don't know which one) is also out in Anthem, which is quite a ways from where I am in Phoenix, so while I could probably get there, it would take quite a while; normally when vet visits are needed, the rescue prefers to pick the dog(s) up and we all go in together, and this can take a while to setup.
I myself couldn't afford to take her to the emergency vet that is close by (couple miles, maybe three), unless the rescue could pay for it afterward, and that vet wouldnt' know anything about her case history (I don't either, just what I am seeing right now).
I do know that I was told Teddy's siezure clusters can go on for days, but that is the only thing I know about them; I haven't been able to get any other information about the siezure history yet.
I've asked about that in contacts (email) a couple times since this started, but havent' gotten any answers on that part yet.
There is liquid valium for rectal use for faster absorption being brought over today, but that's all I know for sure.
I myself couldn't afford to take her to the emergency vet that is close by (couple miles, maybe three), unless the rescue could pay for it afterward, and that vet wouldnt' know anything about her case history (I don't either, just what I am seeing right now).
I do know that I was told Teddy's siezure clusters can go on for days, but that is the only thing I know about them; I haven't been able to get any other information about the siezure history yet.
I've asked about that in contacts (email) a couple times since this started, but havent' gotten any answers on that part yet.
There is liquid valium for rectal use for faster absorption being brought over today, but that's all I know for sure.
Got a little info:
Apparently she's typically had about a day's worth of siezures, and then about 3 days worth of recovery to get back to normal. That's helpful, and heartening, because it's been a bit over 23 hours since they started, so I guess we'll see how they go from here.
I've been trying to keep a log of the whole thing, but lost both of the original two logs I started, when I dozed off (a couple of the many times), I must've clicked something with the trackball.
Today, after taking her meds, the seizures have gotten a lot longer between (part of the pattern AFAICT). for example, these are the last five:
1135am
1143am
1150am
1205pm
1227pm
and there hasnt' been one since then yet; she's been sleeping the last half hour or so.
So here's to hoping that she goes with the pattern they've seen before.
Before she finally was able to sleep, after the panting stage, I got a couple more pieces of the proplan refuel bar down her, but it's not easy, cuz she can still randomly squeeze and lock her jaws, and while my finger are skinny, they're not *that* skinny.
I'd gotten these as treats on clearance at work a while back, but she doesn't have any interest in them because they're sugary not meaty (unlike the other proplan treat bar that is her favorite thing in the universe). Yogi will eat them but he's not all that interested in them, so I just saved them. Since they're meant as "refuel" bars after exercise, they're the best thing I can use that I already have around here to keep her blood sugar up.
The sugar water hasn't worked out very well, very little of it has been getting down her, because she's not concious enough to cooperate. So most of it either flows vback out and dribbles down her fur, or it goes down the wrong way and she coughs instead of swallowing any of it.
At least the refuel bar can be broken into chunks and I can poke them far enough back down her mouth to get her to trigger to swallow them, during the short time after she stops panting and before she falls asleep.
Apparently she's typically had about a day's worth of siezures, and then about 3 days worth of recovery to get back to normal. That's helpful, and heartening, because it's been a bit over 23 hours since they started, so I guess we'll see how they go from here.
I've been trying to keep a log of the whole thing, but lost both of the original two logs I started, when I dozed off (a couple of the many times), I must've clicked something with the trackball.
Today, after taking her meds, the seizures have gotten a lot longer between (part of the pattern AFAICT). for example, these are the last five:
1135am
1143am
1150am
1205pm
1227pm
and there hasnt' been one since then yet; she's been sleeping the last half hour or so.
So here's to hoping that she goes with the pattern they've seen before.
Before she finally was able to sleep, after the panting stage, I got a couple more pieces of the proplan refuel bar down her, but it's not easy, cuz she can still randomly squeeze and lock her jaws, and while my finger are skinny, they're not *that* skinny.
I'd gotten these as treats on clearance at work a while back, but she doesn't have any interest in them because they're sugary not meaty (unlike the other proplan treat bar that is her favorite thing in the universe). Yogi will eat them but he's not all that interested in them, so I just saved them. Since they're meant as "refuel" bars after exercise, they're the best thing I can use that I already have around here to keep her blood sugar up.
The sugar water hasn't worked out very well, very little of it has been getting down her, because she's not concious enough to cooperate. So most of it either flows vback out and dribbles down her fur, or it goes down the wrong way and she coughs instead of swallowing any of it.
At least the refuel bar can be broken into chunks and I can poke them far enough back down her mouth to get her to trigger to swallow them, during the short time after she stops panting and before she falls asleep.
It's been almost 3 hours since the last seizure, and she's still
sleeping peacefully, with a fluid-bag filling up her shoulder/neck
skin.
I've woken her a couple of times to stick a piece of refuel bar down
her, which she swallowed ok after a couple of tries on the first one,
the second was easier.
Her temperature appears to be high for her, around 103.6; it's
fluctuated a degree or so around that point during this whole thing.
I'd guess it's from stress from the siezures? Probably go back normal
once they're over?
sleeping peacefully, with a fluid-bag filling up her shoulder/neck
skin.
I've woken her a couple of times to stick a piece of refuel bar down
her, which she swallowed ok after a couple of tries on the first one,
the second was easier.
Her temperature appears to be high for her, around 103.6; it's
fluctuated a degree or so around that point during this whole thing.
I'd guess it's from stress from the siezures? Probably go back normal
once they're over?
The last three refuel pieces didn't go down far enough--they all just came up in one chunk, wet but undigested, when she had another seizure, about 12 minutes ago.
This one was lesser than the others, by a little bit, but preceded by the same "waking" that isn't really waking, as if she is trying to get up, then moving her head side-to-side as if she was looking around for something; unusually she responded to my voice by moving her head in my direction first, but then the seizure started.
There was a little bit of the feet running, but no barking or other noises, and that only lasted a moment, then she relaxed almost as if dead, but still breathing (faster than normal for resting state, more as if she were active, but is how she has been breathing during this whole thing for the most part).
There was no panting stage at all, just directly to the relaxed state.
I rolled her over on her left side (she's been on the right side the last 3+ hours, as I roll her as often as I can wihtout interrupting her rest states, trying to do it right after she relaxes after panting).
She is so relaxed it is frightening, but Tiny was also like that after a siezure, just that Tiny's lasted only a moment before she began to wake, and Teddy really hasn't woken up more than a couple times in all this, and even then not fully. It's enough to trigger my memories of Tiny's death, and other dogs', and it is very hard to get past to continue and do the other things for her she needs.
like replacing hte ice packs, cleaning up her face, re-ointmenting the bite wounds on her face, replacing slobber-soak-up pads, etc.
This one was lesser than the others, by a little bit, but preceded by the same "waking" that isn't really waking, as if she is trying to get up, then moving her head side-to-side as if she was looking around for something; unusually she responded to my voice by moving her head in my direction first, but then the seizure started.
There was a little bit of the feet running, but no barking or other noises, and that only lasted a moment, then she relaxed almost as if dead, but still breathing (faster than normal for resting state, more as if she were active, but is how she has been breathing during this whole thing for the most part).
There was no panting stage at all, just directly to the relaxed state.
I rolled her over on her left side (she's been on the right side the last 3+ hours, as I roll her as often as I can wihtout interrupting her rest states, trying to do it right after she relaxes after panting).
She is so relaxed it is frightening, but Tiny was also like that after a siezure, just that Tiny's lasted only a moment before she began to wake, and Teddy really hasn't woken up more than a couple times in all this, and even then not fully. It's enough to trigger my memories of Tiny's death, and other dogs', and it is very hard to get past to continue and do the other things for her she needs.
like replacing hte ice packs, cleaning up her face, re-ointmenting the bite wounds on her face, replacing slobber-soak-up pads, etc.
She had another siezure just now, starting about 13 minutes ago (4:50pm), so about an hour after the last one.
This one was also different from her normal pattern.
She "woke" and "attempted to get upright", then looked like she was about to gag but it was instead a siezure, which was otherwise normal intensity and length (not short like the last one).
Instead of ending with her slowly relaxing over a few seconds, and then beginning the barking stage, she began pawing as if running and then barking even while she was *just* stopping the seizure part.
The running and barking was much weaker than usual, and her feet are still twitching a bit even now, several minutes later, though the barking ended within less than a minute.
I'm not sure if these pattern changes mean anything, or if it's simply how her siezures come to an end. :/
She now has all of the first bag of fluids under her left shoulderskin, and most of the second (last one I have) under her right. I started the second before the first is "absorbed" because she's very dehydrated, and want to do what I can to get as much fluid into her as soon as I can.
This one was also different from her normal pattern.
She "woke" and "attempted to get upright", then looked like she was about to gag but it was instead a siezure, which was otherwise normal intensity and length (not short like the last one).
Instead of ending with her slowly relaxing over a few seconds, and then beginning the barking stage, she began pawing as if running and then barking even while she was *just* stopping the seizure part.
The running and barking was much weaker than usual, and her feet are still twitching a bit even now, several minutes later, though the barking ended within less than a minute.
I'm not sure if these pattern changes mean anything, or if it's simply how her siezures come to an end. :/
She now has all of the first bag of fluids under her left shoulderskin, and most of the second (last one I have) under her right. I started the second before the first is "absorbed" because she's very dehydrated, and want to do what I can to get as much fluid into her as soon as I can.
At 5:29pm she had another siezure like the last one, short barking a little right after siezure (which was a little shorter than the first one),paws still twitching now but is panting (which she didnt' do last two times).
So they are coming closer together again, probably as the meds wear off, but she is only a little less than halfway to the timet she can have more.
While I was typing this, she had another, at 537pm, same "new pattern" as above.
Fluids bag is just about empty, she's absorbed much of the first one (under her left shoulderskin) already (this one is still a hard lump under the right shoulder skin).
So they are coming closer together again, probably as the meds wear off, but she is only a little less than halfway to the timet she can have more.
While I was typing this, she had another, at 537pm, same "new pattern" as above.
Fluids bag is just about empty, she's absorbed much of the first one (under her left shoulderskin) already (this one is still a hard lump under the right shoulder skin).
A new "pattern" seems to have emerged, of a "double siezure" where a new one starts as the first one is over and post-ictal is petering out, and both are of the "new" type:
At 6:20pm, another of the same "new" variety, with typical length and strength of siezure part (stage 1) then right into no barking but paws flailing around, right into panting, and those are still moving a little though panting stopped after a couple of minutes, a few minutes after it started.
While typing this, with the paw thing still going on, another seizure started at 6:30pm, same type/etc, though now she is panting longer and harder, and the foot twitching stopped sooner.
I haven't been able to get her to actually swallow any more pieces of the refuel bar; mostly I can't get it far enough back cuz she closes her jaws on my fingers and i have to pull them out. I'm strong enough I might be able to force them open but I might injure her doing so, so I have not.
The fluid bags are in her (under the skin) and being absorbed slowly, but she is still dehydrated even after one bag seems to be more than half absorbed, and I havent' found any other good way to get fluids into her.
At 6:20pm, another of the same "new" variety, with typical length and strength of siezure part (stage 1) then right into no barking but paws flailing around, right into panting, and those are still moving a little though panting stopped after a couple of minutes, a few minutes after it started.
While typing this, with the paw thing still going on, another seizure started at 6:30pm, same type/etc, though now she is panting longer and harder, and the foot twitching stopped sooner.
I haven't been able to get her to actually swallow any more pieces of the refuel bar; mostly I can't get it far enough back cuz she closes her jaws on my fingers and i have to pull them out. I'm strong enough I might be able to force them open but I might injure her doing so, so I have not.
The fluid bags are in her (under the skin) and being absorbed slowly, but she is still dehydrated even after one bag seems to be more than half absorbed, and I havent' found any other good way to get fluids into her.
Another new type at 6:47pm, and then another at 6:59pm, but it was after the other had ended rather than fading into it like the last two "pairs", so maybe not a new pattern, but still a new type.
in case something happens to it locally again, here is the timing log I have so far, with when it started and how long between them that is:
1135am
1143am 8m
1150am 13m
1205pm 15m
1227pm 22m
1549pm 3h 22m
1650pm 1h 1m
1729pm 49m
1737pm 8m
1820pm 43m
1830pm 10m
1847pm 17m
1859pm 12m
1918pm 19m
1929pm 11m
2036pm 1h7m
meds at 2100pm
2137pm 1h1m
0612am 8h25m
0640am 28m
meds at 915am
microsiezures:
1012am
1054am
1120am
1150am
minisiezure:
1211pm
(list above re-edited for each new one)
Another new type at 7:18pm.
and another at 7:29pm, so 19minutes from the last in that list and then 11minutes.
Maybe there is a new paired-siezure pattern after all, it's just that the first two pairs being around 45m apart fs about half that for the next two pairs.
Guess we'll see, since unfortunately it's taking longer than it did for her at the rescue to get past the siezures, [strike]by about a quarter day so far (25%).[/strike]
scratch that, I'm too tired for math; it started about 2am on the 13th, so 24 hours would've been 2am on the 14th. since it's now almost 20:00 on the 14th, that means it's actually been almost 44 hours since they started, so nearly twice as long as usual. I have no idea what that means.
I heard back and I guess the liquid valium wasn't ready so it (or more fluid bags) won't be here until tomorrow at the earliest.
Hopefully she won't need it by then because the siezures will be gone on their own. Until then I'll just keep giving her the pill version, which she gets in a bit over an hour or so, if I can get them down her throat and make her swallow them. (haven't been able to do that with the refuel bar pieces in the last few hours).
Another new type at 2036; an hour and 7 minutes from the last one. Should be a second one by about 2045-2050 if it's like the last one.
Was no second one.
Meds were given at 2100, took a bit of working to get them down her, but they made it past the part of her throat I can see, at least. And they didnt' come up in the next seizure, 37 minutes later.
This one was almost like the new type, but there was a couple of barks while panting and her head moved side to side, and the foot twitches stopped quickly, rather than continuing for a few minutes.
in case something happens to it locally again, here is the timing log I have so far, with when it started and how long between them that is:
1135am
1143am 8m
1150am 13m
1205pm 15m
1227pm 22m
1549pm 3h 22m
1650pm 1h 1m
1729pm 49m
1737pm 8m
1820pm 43m
1830pm 10m
1847pm 17m
1859pm 12m
1918pm 19m
1929pm 11m
2036pm 1h7m
meds at 2100pm
2137pm 1h1m
0612am 8h25m
0640am 28m
meds at 915am
microsiezures:
1012am
1054am
1120am
1150am
minisiezure:
1211pm
(list above re-edited for each new one)
Another new type at 7:18pm.
and another at 7:29pm, so 19minutes from the last in that list and then 11minutes.
Maybe there is a new paired-siezure pattern after all, it's just that the first two pairs being around 45m apart fs about half that for the next two pairs.
Guess we'll see, since unfortunately it's taking longer than it did for her at the rescue to get past the siezures, [strike]by about a quarter day so far (25%).[/strike]
scratch that, I'm too tired for math; it started about 2am on the 13th, so 24 hours would've been 2am on the 14th. since it's now almost 20:00 on the 14th, that means it's actually been almost 44 hours since they started, so nearly twice as long as usual. I have no idea what that means.
I heard back and I guess the liquid valium wasn't ready so it (or more fluid bags) won't be here until tomorrow at the earliest.
Hopefully she won't need it by then because the siezures will be gone on their own. Until then I'll just keep giving her the pill version, which she gets in a bit over an hour or so, if I can get them down her throat and make her swallow them. (haven't been able to do that with the refuel bar pieces in the last few hours).
Another new type at 2036; an hour and 7 minutes from the last one. Should be a second one by about 2045-2050 if it's like the last one.
Was no second one.
Meds were given at 2100, took a bit of working to get them down her, but they made it past the part of her throat I can see, at least. And they didnt' come up in the next seizure, 37 minutes later.
This one was almost like the new type, but there was a couple of barks while panting and her head moved side to side, and the foot twitches stopped quickly, rather than continuing for a few minutes.
No siezurse since teh last one above at 937pm; thats almsot 5 hours. lets hope thas end of them
i dozed off somwere in there but woke p to yogi checking on us. he still is afraid to stay in here, doesn't understand but probly is feeling that she's just laing ther like tiny did after she died and doesn't move, maybe he thinks its contagious. cant blame im.
anyhway i got up to go see him if he needed anythig and when i came back i kissed teddys nose, then she actully pulled her had back a teeny bit which is hwat she wouldve done if she wer e awake, and she had squnty eyes that didnt' track me exactly but like she was aware a little.
i got an icecube and wet it down and set it on her side teeth and she opned he r mouth and let it fall inside and tried to chw it but coudln't contorl anything well enough so setteld for rubbing her tongue on it like she was triing to swallow it. kept pushing it out of her mout instead but when i pushd it in from front teeth a bit she clmaped dwon on it an held it while lcking at it.
she fell asleep liek that. when thtat one omelted i got another and set it on her side teeth again and after a bit she woke and let if fall inside her mouth agian and she wa sbetter at licking it this time but i don't thik much made it down her throat, at least she can actuly try now.
so i hope the siezure s are over now and now shes jsut so wornout and weak that she needs rest and water and food to recofer.
il et her go back to sleep and now i'm oing to try too, sinc eshe s on the foot half of hte bed i'm kinda across the head half and my legs are on blankets on floor; i can leave my arm across her so if she moves i'll wkae up, left a little light on so i cna see whats happening if she does.
i dozed off somwere in there but woke p to yogi checking on us. he still is afraid to stay in here, doesn't understand but probly is feeling that she's just laing ther like tiny did after she died and doesn't move, maybe he thinks its contagious.
cant blame im.anyhway i got up to go see him if he needed anythig and when i came back i kissed teddys nose, then she actully pulled her had back a teeny bit which is hwat she wouldve done if she wer e awake, and she had squnty eyes that didnt' track me exactly but like she was aware a little.
i got an icecube and wet it down and set it on her side teeth and she opned he r mouth and let it fall inside and tried to chw it but coudln't contorl anything well enough so setteld for rubbing her tongue on it like she was triing to swallow it. kept pushing it out of her mout instead but when i pushd it in from front teeth a bit she clmaped dwon on it an held it while lcking at it.
she fell asleep liek that. when thtat one omelted i got another and set it on her side teeth again and after a bit she woke and let if fall inside her mouth agian and she wa sbetter at licking it this time but i don't thik much made it down her throat, at least she can actuly try now.
so i hope the siezure s are over now and now shes jsut so wornout and weak that she needs rest and water and food to recofer.
il et her go back to sleep and now i'm oing to try too, sinc eshe s on the foot half of hte bed i'm kinda across the head half and my legs are on blankets on floor; i can leave my arm across her so if she moves i'll wkae up, left a little light on so i cna see whats happening if she does.
amberwolf said:No siezurse since teh last one above at 937pm; thats almsot 5 hours. lets hope thas end of them
i dozed off somwere in there but woke p to yogi checking on us. he still is afraid to stay in here, doesn't understand but probly is feeling that she's just laing ther like tiny did after she died and doesn't move, maybe he thinks its contagious.
anyhway i got up to go see him if he needed anythig and when i came back i kissed teddys nose, then she actully pulled her had back a teeny bit which is hwat she wouldve done if she wer e awake, and she had squnty eyes that didnt' track me exactly but like she was aware a little.
i got an icecube and wet it down and set it on her side teeth and she opned he r mouth and let it fall inside and tried to chw it but coudln't contorl anything well enough so setteld for rubbing her tongue on it like she was triing to swallow it. kept pushing it out of her mout instead but when i pushd it in from front teeth a bit she clmaped dwon on it an held it while lcking at it.
she fell asleep liek that. when thtat one omelted i got another and set it on her side teeth again and after a bit she woke and let if fall inside her mouth agian and she wa sbetter at licking it this time but i don't thik much made it down her throat, at least she can actuly try now.
so i hope the siezure s are over now and now shes jsut so wornout and weak that she needs rest and water and food to recofer.
il et her go back to sleep and now i'm oing to try too, sinc eshe s on the foot half of hte bed i'm kinda across the head half and my legs are on blankets on floor; i can leave my arm across her so if she moves i'll wkae up, left a little light on so i cna see whats happening if she does.
Fingers crossed. I've spent some long nights dealing with seizures. Not fun at all.
One thing, be really careful trying to give food while the dog isn't in a normal state. My vet warned us not to do that since there's a high risk of choking.
Again, I didn't read the whole thread but did your vet or the shelter determine the cause of the seizures?
612am just seizure, no barkig no panting. guess thats almost 8.5 hrs since last one
ithink i got rfuel bar piece down her, almost got crushed fingr in process cuz shes tring to chew it as i push it to back of throat.
put some icdubes in hr mout sh e sort of at e one rest just melting dunno if any made it down.
640am weak sieuzre just little bit of the jaw movment as if tryign to swallow, with rapdi eye movemmetns, no post stuff.
temprature at 103.3
yeha, is why not doing normal fod, not doing water, etc. but she need s something and these are only option i hafve.
ithink i got rfuel bar piece down her, almost got crushed fingr in process cuz shes tring to chew it as i push it to back of throat.
put some icdubes in hr mout sh e sort of at e one rest just melting dunno if any made it down.
640am weak sieuzre just little bit of the jaw movment as if tryign to swallow, with rapdi eye movemmetns, no post stuff.
temprature at 103.3
EVTodd said:
yeha, is why not doing normal fod, not doing water, etc. but she need s something and these are only option i hafve.
dunno, eveyrthing i know is in these recent post since youve ben replying. ovre lst 3 yrs with tiny yogi adn teddy, ive asked a lot fo things that go usnanswerd with the recsue. dunno if its cuz they dunno or forgot ot reply or what.
Nothing like as hard as it is for Teddy.
The rescue had another dog that could take five days to get over this stuff, so Teddy's got it easy compared to that.
She hasn't had another seizure yet, and she actively fought me trying to get her meds down, after having actively cooperated in eating a couple ice cubes; she's responding (weakly) to my voice and touch, so she's definitely at least semi-concious, a lot more than before.
She's still so weak and worn out that she can only deal with a couple "rotten" (left in fridge overnight) ice cubes an hour, and almost none of that makes it down her, so I dunno that I'll be able to rehydrate her soon doing it that way. I'm also afraid of her aspirating the stuff and ending up with pneumonia. But we'll keep trying as she has energy and desire.
Food is another thing...am again trying pieces of refuel bar every so often, but it's not always working out; she wants to chew them (or mostly she'd rather spit them out cuz she doesn't like them) but can't control her mouth well enough, but is more than strong enough to take my finger off if I don't manage to pull it out before she tries. Still trying to work out a system of getting them down her.
I've managed to get some sleep, since she's so worn out she doesn't move much, so doesn't wake me from my hand on her head.
At the moment she is trying to get up, but absolutely doesn't have the energy to even fully lift her head off the folded-puppy-pad (to absorb all the wetness from slobber so she doesnt' have to lay in it), or move her legs more than a little bit. Gonna roll her over and see if it makes her more comfy. I already changed out the ice bags earlier during her possible last seizure (taht I'm still not sure if it actually was, a little before 7am).
The rescue had another dog that could take five days to get over this stuff, so Teddy's got it easy compared to that.
She hasn't had another seizure yet, and she actively fought me trying to get her meds down, after having actively cooperated in eating a couple ice cubes; she's responding (weakly) to my voice and touch, so she's definitely at least semi-concious, a lot more than before.
She's still so weak and worn out that she can only deal with a couple "rotten" (left in fridge overnight) ice cubes an hour, and almost none of that makes it down her, so I dunno that I'll be able to rehydrate her soon doing it that way. I'm also afraid of her aspirating the stuff and ending up with pneumonia. But we'll keep trying as she has energy and desire.
Food is another thing...am again trying pieces of refuel bar every so often, but it's not always working out; she wants to chew them (or mostly she'd rather spit them out cuz she doesn't like them) but can't control her mouth well enough, but is more than strong enough to take my finger off if I don't manage to pull it out before she tries. Still trying to work out a system of getting them down her.
I've managed to get some sleep, since she's so worn out she doesn't move much, so doesn't wake me from my hand on her head.
At the moment she is trying to get up, but absolutely doesn't have the energy to even fully lift her head off the folded-puppy-pad (to absorb all the wetness from slobber so she doesnt' have to lay in it), or move her legs more than a little bit. Gonna roll her over and see if it makes her more comfy. I already changed out the ice bags earlier during her possible last seizure (taht I'm still not sure if it actually was, a little before 7am).
So I'm pretty sure these little things are actually microsiezures at this point.
At first I thought she was just trying to swallow or lick her lips, but when it happens her legs stiffen up too, and sometimes I can see side-to-side twitches of her head or her eyes or both. Similar pattern to the one at 640am, though that one was a tiny bit bigger.
Ther'eve been four of those since about 10am, at
1012
1054
1120
1150
and then at 1211 she had a bigger one that included head lifting off towel/pads with some jaw movement, some leg thrashing, wide-open eyes, and heavier breathing for a minute afterward.
It was nowhere near as bad as before, but it was definitely not a voluntary thing.
I'm still using icecubes to get liquids into her as best I can; it's very slow but when she's awake she tries to help, just can't very well.
two more of those mini-siezures, where it's almost like she's trying to get up in a panic, at 1237 and 1251.
At first I thought she was just trying to swallow or lick her lips, but when it happens her legs stiffen up too, and sometimes I can see side-to-side twitches of her head or her eyes or both. Similar pattern to the one at 640am, though that one was a tiny bit bigger.
Ther'eve been four of those since about 10am, at
1012
1054
1120
1150
and then at 1211 she had a bigger one that included head lifting off towel/pads with some jaw movement, some leg thrashing, wide-open eyes, and heavier breathing for a minute afterward.
It was nowhere near as bad as before, but it was definitely not a voluntary thing.
I'm still using icecubes to get liquids into her as best I can; it's very slow but when she's awake she tries to help, just can't very well.
two more of those mini-siezures, where it's almost like she's trying to get up in a panic, at 1237 and 1251.
No more of the micro siezures so far, and her temp has dropped to 102.5 from the 103.5-ish it's been at.
After I rolled her over this latest time, and removing the cold packs (not really ice at this point) from along her back, she began whimpering, and tensing her front legs at the same time. This started a couple minutes afterwards, and I'm not sure if it has to do with the position change and associated surface bloodflow changes, but it might. As I was rubbing her ribs and side, the whimpering would increase. I'm sure she's sore from the siezures and from laying so long.
When I was checking her temperature (rectally) it got worse though I'm pretty sure I wasn't hurting her, but she might need to poop and not want to let it out cuz she's not outside, if she's that aware (I can't tell for sure; she's at least semi-aware, but not fully).
Just before this, she finally peed a fair bit, for the first time since the beginning; it filled up and overflowed the puppy pad I had under her, so I changed it out and layered two this time to catch overflow for next time.
Still trying to rehydrate her, but it's really really really slow going, cuz I'm afraid I'll make her aspirate stuff, so ice cubes are all I can do right now, putting bits between her jaws and letting her move her tongue on them, possibly swallowing some (most is definitely not going down, based on how quickly the puppy pads and towels under her head get soaked. ).
I was just going to have to leave her for a bit and try to get over to Pratts' to buy a couple fluids bags (as I haven't heard back from the rescue since this morning), but Raine volunteered to go instead so I could stay with Teddy (since Raine probably couldn't help much if Teddy did have another seizure or other problem).
Had to decide on this now because they're only open till 530pm (another hour), and not open tomorrow, so I'd rather buy stuff I don't need (if the rescue brings some by) right now than not have it and need it and be unable to get it.
After I rolled her over this latest time, and removing the cold packs (not really ice at this point) from along her back, she began whimpering, and tensing her front legs at the same time. This started a couple minutes afterwards, and I'm not sure if it has to do with the position change and associated surface bloodflow changes, but it might. As I was rubbing her ribs and side, the whimpering would increase. I'm sure she's sore from the siezures and from laying so long.
When I was checking her temperature (rectally) it got worse though I'm pretty sure I wasn't hurting her, but she might need to poop and not want to let it out cuz she's not outside, if she's that aware (I can't tell for sure; she's at least semi-aware, but not fully).
Just before this, she finally peed a fair bit, for the first time since the beginning; it filled up and overflowed the puppy pad I had under her, so I changed it out and layered two this time to catch overflow for next time.
Still trying to rehydrate her, but it's really really really slow going, cuz I'm afraid I'll make her aspirate stuff, so ice cubes are all I can do right now, putting bits between her jaws and letting her move her tongue on them, possibly swallowing some (most is definitely not going down, based on how quickly the puppy pads and towels under her head get soaked. ).
I was just going to have to leave her for a bit and try to get over to Pratts' to buy a couple fluids bags (as I haven't heard back from the rescue since this morning), but Raine volunteered to go instead so I could stay with Teddy (since Raine probably couldn't help much if Teddy did have another seizure or other problem).
Had to decide on this now because they're only open till 530pm (another hour), and not open tomorrow, so I'd rather buy stuff I don't need (if the rescue brings some by) right now than not have it and need it and be unable to get it.
Pratt's only had one bag (they said they had more on the phone, of course), but at least it's something, so it's dripping into her right now.
I wish I could feed her that way, too. :/
I'm making some gatorade ice cubes ATM, so when they're ready we'll start trying bits of those to see about getting sugars/etc into her, if I can get any of them actually down her.
Until they're ready, it's time to start giving her another spot-bath on her backend where the urine soaked into her fur, and her face/etc where all the other stuff hasn't gone down.
I wish I could feed her that way, too. :/
I'm making some gatorade ice cubes ATM, so when they're ready we'll start trying bits of those to see about getting sugars/etc into her, if I can get any of them actually down her.
Until they're ready, it's time to start giving her another spot-bath on her backend where the urine soaked into her fur, and her face/etc where all the other stuff hasn't gone down.
amberwolf said:
Hats off friend, it's tough dealing with a seizure dog for sure. I read your posts and it brings it all back. Keep reading about seizures and keeping track of patterns, full moon right now too. See if that ends up being part of the pattern. Do you happen to know how old she is or how old she was when the seizures started? From what I read if it starts at a young age it's usually epilepsy. It can be controlled once you figure out the formula of meds for your dog. Long clusters like you're going through are bad though. Keep bugging the vet or whoever you can.
This is the first she's had in a year, according to the rescue. Before that, before her present meds (zonisamide) they coudl happen eveyr couple months.EVTodd said:
Not sure what triggered this cluster, though the possibility exists that her latest batch of meds might not have been compounded strong enough--it was not long after starting this batch that this happened. Couple weeks? Cant' remember exactly.
No idea. I've asked a number of questions about her that get no answers (not even an "i don't know"), but that is a normal thing with the rescue.
Yes, Tiny had single-episode grand-mal seizures but once on the Phenobarbitol at the right dosage (adjusted up a couple times) she was fine, except if she got super excited close to (but before) the time she was to get her next meds.
Present update on Teddy:
Her temperature had dropped down to 102f, but is now back up to 104.4f, higher than it was during the seizures (which was around 103.5 most of the time, peaking under 104 and dipping to 103). I advised the rescue of that; a vet visit may be in order at this point, or at least getting antibiotics.
Honey and ice cream placed on her tongue have been suggested to raise her blood sugar. I've tried a number of things, but pretty much anything liquid she will aspirate, or if it causes her to slobber more, she aspirates that.
The only things I can (sometimes) get down her are chunks of ice cube and pieces of purina refuel bar (which feels kinda like hard caramel candy squares), if I can get her to not crush my fingers as I try to drop them vertically down to the back of her mouth, and if I can keep her tongue out of hte way in the process so it goes on top of and not under it.
Since I have to pry her jaws open at least a little to do any of this, it's really hard, especially since she fights me, trying to "chew" the whole time.
My fingers are bruised from trying, though only one little hole so far. her breathing is getting more "intense" (can't remember the right word), and occasionally her shoulders shiver; she probably has a fever (whether from just stress or from an infection due to the bites or aspiration or something else, I don't know) and would be panting if she were awake.
Right now I've got more ice packs around her to try to lower her temperature.
Rescue said to remove ice packs and not to use them at all, but just to use cool towels on her lower belly, and rub her pads with alcohol.
So I took all the packs off her back, and put a damp cool towel on her lower belly, holding her left leg up so air can flow across it to help cool by evaporation, too. Then I used another hand-rag to apply alcohol to her pads on front and back feet.
Since it was a bit after 9pm at this piont, and my goal had been to get her her meds by 9pm, I went to go get them (and get Yogi his food while I was at it).
Came back a couple of minutes later, and by 9:15pm, I was trying to give her her meds, and just after I think I got them down her, she started the barking and pawing stage that is usually post-siezure, but she did not have the seizure itself (or I would have lost fingers getting meds down her as her jaws snapped open and closed), and she did not tense up either.
I'm not sure if the seizure stuff is causing the fever, or the fever
is causing the siezures--I know that either can happen.
I'm also not sure if removing the ice packs allowed the barking stage to startup again; she hasnt' done that for many hours now.
I got to check her temperature after that stopped a couple minutees later, and it has dropped to 103.8 for now, and her breathing is more normal, not labored. (the word I was looking for earlier)
Either the towel and alcohol worked or it dropped on it's own, but
either way it's lower now. (the ice packs might have worked too, but werne't given a chance).
So I took all the packs off her back, and put a damp cool towel on her lower belly, holding her left leg up so air can flow across it to help cool by evaporation, too. Then I used another hand-rag to apply alcohol to her pads on front and back feet.
Since it was a bit after 9pm at this piont, and my goal had been to get her her meds by 9pm, I went to go get them (and get Yogi his food while I was at it).
Came back a couple of minutes later, and by 9:15pm, I was trying to give her her meds, and just after I think I got them down her, she started the barking and pawing stage that is usually post-siezure, but she did not have the seizure itself (or I would have lost fingers getting meds down her as her jaws snapped open and closed), and she did not tense up either.
I'm not sure if the seizure stuff is causing the fever, or the fever
is causing the siezures--I know that either can happen.
I'm also not sure if removing the ice packs allowed the barking stage to startup again; she hasnt' done that for many hours now.
I got to check her temperature after that stopped a couple minutees later, and it has dropped to 103.8 for now, and her breathing is more normal, not labored. (the word I was looking for earlier)
Either the towel and alcohol worked or it dropped on it's own, but
either way it's lower now. (the ice packs might have worked too, but werne't given a chance).
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