Endless power?

[theprodigyp]

What are everyones opioion of ways of unlimited power for electric vehicles? I know we can wind possibly, and sun. What about such things as a generator? I thought of an idea but its still stuck in my head to weather it would really work or not. I have a basic understanding of power sources and electricity. Lets just say that you attached Batteries or fully charged capasiters to a motor with a switch. Well it would move right? Well what if you attached another motor to the other end but reversed it. Arnt most electric or hand generators just a motor connected to wires? So would the concept of attaching that motor to a power source like a battery in theory charge that battery? or if it was attached to some capasiters wouldnt it fill the capasiters with energy? Then what if you had a switch to turn the charging on and off, like a disconect to the circut on the end with the motor, then attach another switch to the other end that would connect that circuit with the other motor that powers everything? In someway I believe you could make that all automatic too with some circuit boards and so on so say the capasiters are full, the board would power a light to show you that along with automatically switch the system to on, on the other side then switch the other end back on as well. So then wouldnt the capasiters be giving energy to the powering motor, and at the same time the genorator would be spinning to recharge those capasiters that are being used? Maybe this could even be simplified to just have 2 motors, one in reverse as a generator and it would power the motor in an endless cycle or is there a loss of energy in there somewhere? - Note also you could possibly have 2 sections of capasitors so onece one section is charged it switches to power the motor, while the other one switches to be charged, then they alternate. Anyone have any thoughts on this? or other crazy ideas about endless power? I am just spit balling here, and wondered if anyone else has ever thought about this.

 

[pdf]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion#Classification

 

[Drunkskunk]

What you described with the two motors is whats called Over Unity, where you get more energy out of a system than you put in. Its imposable. It violates the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

A simple explanation is that everything has efficiency losses. All motion, all sound, all movement of any kind will run into friction and resistance, stealing part of your total power.

Lets simplify that motor/generator design. Lets say the motor runs on 100 watts of electricity from the battery, but like most motors, its around 80% efficient. That means it's output is only 80 watts. Now connect a generator to it. If you connect it by gears, or a belt, there would be some efficiency loss here too. Say 5% for a simple belt drive. Now the generator is only receiving 76 watts. Now a generator is just a motor run in reverse, so again its only about 80% efficient at generating power, meaning it can only produce 60watts to go back to the battery. Before you can put that power back into the battery, you going to need to match it's voltage through a charger, which runs at around 90% efficient, leaving 54 watts to go back into the battery.

The batteries put out 100 watts, and at the end they only get back 54 watts. That's if the only work the motor is doing is turning the generator. If you wanted to drive the bike with 80 watts going to the wheel and run the generator at the same time, you would need to get 200 watts from the battery, with the 80% efficient motor making 160 watts at the shaft. 80 of which would be fed to the wheel, and 80 watts fed to the pulley to the generator, which would then only return 54 watts back to the battery.


Basically, there is no free lunch.

 

[Hwy89]

This idea keeps popping up, it's a perpetual notion.

 

[footloose]

...is there a loss of energy in there somewhere? -

Yes, always, unfortunately.

Search for such systems goes back at least to Archimedes.
Leo da Vinci noodled around with them on paper, even though he apparently realized the impossibility.
U.S. Patent Office policy is to reject patent applications for such systems if they don't include a working model.
No one has submitted a viable working model so far.

The type of "energy trading" system you describe would be pretty cool to build, but mostly as demo of a Rube Goldberg type machine that exists only to run itself.
Of course, even if you could get 100% efficiency (not possible)... as soon as you extracted energy from the system to do some external unit of work, you'd be depleting the system.
The builder would have to top up the energy store from time to time... ideally while no one is looking :wink:

 

[parajared]

What about Radioisotope thermoelectric generators? My science team at the Kerbal Space Program has successfully used them as an endless power source in many of our projects .

 

[Hwy89]

What about Radioisotope thermoelectric generators? My science team at these Kerbal Space Program has successfully used them as an endless power source in many of our projects .]

Radioactive decomp is fuel, but you know that because you added the smiley face
I just googled Kerbal Space program. Hey if it works on Kerbin it should work here. Right?

 

[theprodigyp]

Ah thats the word. Perpetual motion. I have studied and seen that everyone says its impossible. I get now what you mean by all that loss in power and energy being transfered. That really stinks. I guess the laws of physics cant simply allow for it. The concept is still just crazy to think about. Even such things like a solar panal to a changeable circuit to two diffent sections of capasitors still wouldnt alow the law. I was just thinking of it and Ive had some wicked ideas, but I guess its not possible but then again I guess its always somthing to get you thinking and inovative. One day Ill try and work on some ways. Like the idea of swapping batteries when it needs to be charged.

-More on that. Lets say I have a 50mm motor, about 120 KW. and mount a smaller one on the same shaft as a genorator. I have 2 sets of batteries. and have a circuit board that alows for an automatic switch between batteries or a button to switch them, you think that would work? I mean one will be powering the motor while the other gets charged, then you would be able to turn the chrging circuit off once the battery is fully charged on the end with the genorator, then lets say you have 10% left on your first battery, you can then switch that one with a button so the genorator can charge that one and the other battery will switch to an on mode where it has a direct line to the motor. I am thinking of the concept some big gas cars have that have 2 gas tanks. Like if you run out of gas, you push a button and the engine switched to the reserve tank so you can get to a gas station. Same concept just simpler and more compact and I believe it would be easier to not stop, even though you might have a bit of jolt or lag between the switch from the dead battery to the fully charged one. If I ever draw it out, id put it in a go cart type vehicle first because that way I would plenty of room for bigger batteries and so on.

 

[Gregory]

No. Remember those losses you mentioned?

Your 120kW motor has to use energy to run the generator (loss), charger circuitry (loss), battery IR (loss).
Energy that would have otherwise been used to move forward is being wasted in losses.

 

[Drunkskunk]

I think the part you're missing is how a generator works. It would be more accurate to call it a converter. Its converting mechanical energy to electrical. If you put 100 watts of mechanical energy in, you can only get that much out as electrical energy, minus the efficiency losses.

When you turn a generator's shaft, it's forcing the magnets past electrical coils, which force electrons to move along the wire. But the electrons are going to push back, in exactly the same way they will when the generator is being used as a motor. Essentially, what you are doing is taking a running motor, and forcing it to turn backwards while it's trying to run forwards.

Imagine, you have a motor with a wheel hooked to a battery, its running. Now you grab that wheel and stop it with your bare hands. Then you begin turning the motor backwards by hand while it's still trying to run forwards. It's hard as hell to turn it, but overcome it and twist the motor backwards faster than it was running forwards. You're now forcing energy back into the battery. That's how a generator works.

 

[el_walto]

If such a simple thing like that was possible, we would all be using it, using it for everything. The problem is you will NEVER generate more power than you use to power the generator.

Sometimes I wonder I'm being trolled by the same person.

 

[footloose]

...it's a perpetual notion.

Brilliant, thank you, brightened my afternoon!

 

[footloose]

?..The problem is you will NEVER generate more power than you use to power the generator.

I'm not a physics guy, but agree completely. It isn't possible. Help me understand basis of "why". My sense is that ultimately this is an issue of entropy, eg, as I understand it, that complex systems ultimately shed energy and become simpler systems, no exceptions allowed. I know that may be a horrific simplification to a physicist... But is it basically true?

 

[Dauntless]

Oh goodie, we get to talk stupid about close encounters with perpetual motion of the third kind. As well as the first two.

Overunity is about getting more out than YOU put in. That's an important distinction. Sort of like Social Security. Except while you do collect more social security than you paid in except for the few who don't live long enough to, the shortfall in your contributions is covered by all the other taxes you paid.

If you read the legendary 'Atlas Shrugged,' you recall John Galt's static electricity motor which is this driving mystery for part of the book. Makes a great theory that you need only start the motor spinning and it then uses static electricity out of the air to run. Except is there REALLY that much static electricity out there? If there is, could you really capture it quickly enough to keep the motor running? Well, I guess the generator he made from it powered Galt's Gulch well enough, eh?

This is the sort of thing the advanced over unity cultie believes in. They insist that the additional energy is coming from SOMEWHERE, which would then make the theory valid. (Good luck.) As though the air is so full of electricity you'd think a sneeze would touch off an explosion. (Well, MY sneezes sure do.)

If you compare the amount of electricity it takes to run a motor at perhaps 3,000rpm to the amount of electricity it would be producing if it was unpowered but being spun at 3,000rpm, you get the idea of the hopelessness of creating perpetual motion that way. What you described is indeed perpetual motion of the third kind, defiance of the Third Law or Thermodynamics which says you're going to have losses.

Or maybe you have another way to put it. Are there any Statistical Mechanics in the house? Better yet, any true believers in Over Unity? These can be most entertaining people.

 

[nechaus]

What you need is a Matter to electron converter
You simply put in any matter, air will do as you have an unlimited source pretty much, and you can run your bike for light years

 

[lbz5mc12]

Here's a funny idea. Take a bunch of those bike light dynamos and spread them out between both your wheels. Have multiple lights hooked up in a cluster. Put the lights inside of a box made of solar panels with the panels facing inwards. You'd probably need to vent the box to avoid heat build up. Run the output on the box to an inverter and then plug the charger into the inverter.

 

[Hillhater]

Here's a funny idea. ..............
.................and then plug the charger into the inverter.

WHY ?

Here is a better idea..
Lets have a IQ test for posting rights on the board..then we would not be wasting server space on these dumb questions.

 

[pdf]

This idea keeps popping up, it's a perpetual notion.

Bam! Good one.

 

[cal3thousand]

What you need is a Matter to electron converter
You simply put in any matter, air will do as you have an unlimited source pretty much, and you can run your bike for light years

ebikes with Mr Fusion for the win!

 

[meelis11]

That idea sounds little-bit like a Tesla switch. Google it, here is one article http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/01/29/how-to-build-a-tesla-4-battery-switch/#.UkSW31EW3Zg

 

[cal3thousand]

Can we get a sticky thread where all these threads can get merged into?

 

[el_walto]

?..The problem is you will NEVER generate more power than you use to power the generator.

I'm not a physics guy, but agree completely. It isn't possible. Help me understand basis of "why". My sense is that ultimately this is an issue of entropy, eg, as I understand it, that complex systems ultimately shed energy and become simpler systems, no exceptions allowed. I know that may be a horrific simplification to a physicist... But is it basically true?

Simple explination for my uneducated brain. Everything has to deal with some amount of friction and gravity working against it. This energy is converted into heat, so there is an energy loss.