European regulations

[greenspark]

I would be surprised if the links you show can actually provide the kits. One feedback on one of them reads "Beware!!! never buy - Fake seller does not have product, I confirmed before payment and was told product is available after purchase decline and increased the price three times. " The Chinese vendors look like web sites that do a shotgun approach to see what they will catch rather than vendors that specialise in ebikes. When sites like http://BMSbattery.com or http://www.greenbikekit.com/ carry them (or Paul?) then you will know they are really on the market.

Compared to the German site's price of €600 ($US 800) (including VAT), the price of US $328 and $330 would be very impressive unless the factory is giving big discounts, or unless the vendor makes their profits on the shipping.

As a point of information, our two motors came in a single polystyrene box designed to hold two motors and accessories. Also, the black C950 display has been superseded by a white C961 display. The photos in the Chinese sites are probably pre-release. The one that shows the ebike is the bike I test drove at the factory in Suzhou.

Things may change by the time you return from September. I expect that European distributors will put in bulk sea orders and eventually will have plenty on offer at retail prices.

BTW, the 250W BBS01 would be great in Barcelona. Great city, easy terrain.

 

[Arbol]

Wow, great post again, greenspark. Thank you. I will check again beginning September.

 

[d8veh]

Thanks, great explanation.

I still continue without knowing if it is legal to run a say 750W motor limited electronically to 250W via Cycle Analyst, though.

It has to have a "nominal" rating of 250w, which means a manufacturer's label on it, so if 750w is stamped on it, it's illegal.If it it had no power markings, it could be tested using the optional acceleration test, which is easy to pass by programming a nice throttle ramp in your CA so that the motor doesn't get maximum power from the start.

 

[friendly1uk]

Where can this EN15194 be read? I can't seem to find it.

I found it here: http://www.vae-enov.com/fiches_2010/norme_en_15194.pdf

Thank you.
The french one was all I found, but reading it properly it is the EN doc after all

This clears up a couple of points that were getting hazy but have since been addressed anyway. The 6kmh throttle allowance, only while there is user input though, no cruise control. The 25kmh top speed. The fact you can't use a CA in it's standard form as a few button pushes and it is no longer 250 so it fails testing.

My brief history has only led me to build a bike, never to see what I can buy. I only know of the A2B that had an off road setting, and it did so by switching to another battery. Something that in legal mode was no more than cargo.


Anyone read this bit?

assistance shall be cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling forward such that the cut off distance does not
exceed 5 m with the use of brake lever cut off switch or 2 m without the use of brake lever cut off switch.

Hows that work then. If I stop pedaling it must cut power in 2 meters, but if I actually brake it can carry on for 5 meters? lol

 

[teklektik]

This clears up a couple of points that were getting hazy but have since been addressed anyway. The 6kmh throttle allowance, only while there is user input though,

I'm not sure what you mean by 'user input'. No pedaling is required but the user must do something explicit to control the motor (turn a throttle).

• 4.2.4.3.1 Requirements
  • EPAC can be equipped with a start up assistance mode up to 6 km/h designed speed or lower values as
    specified by the manufacturer. Unauthorized use shall be prevented.
    This mode shall be activated by the voluntary and maintained action of the user either when riding without
    pedalling or when the user is pushing the cycle.

no cruise control.

I missed that. Can you please call out the doc section number?

 

[friendly1uk]

6kmh throttle allowance, only while there is user input though, no cruise control.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'user input'. No pedaling is required but the user must do something explicit to control the motor (turn a throttle).

Yes. You have to be doing something. It is not a cruise control. If you fall off, it won't carry on without you.

Generally the 6kmh control is just a button you have to keep depressed. As seen on many 'led displays'. It can be a twist throttle though that can't propel you past 6kmh

 

[teklektik]

Yes. You have to be doing something. It is not a cruise control.

Okay - I misunderstood your post. Cruise control per se is not disallowed by the standard in that the nature of the assist is unspecified. It appears that assist as a fixed power or speed (cruise) can be applied (without throttle, etc) as long as it is enabled by pedaling and the cut-off, etc complies with the requirements for management:

• 4.2.4 Power management
  4.2.4.1 Requirements
  • When tested by the method described in 4.2.4.2 the recordings shall show that:
    a) assistance shall be provided only when the cyclist pedals forward. This requirement has to be checked according to the test methods described in 4.2.4.2.2 a);
    b) assistance shall be cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling forward such that the cut off distance does not exceed 5 m with the use of brake lever cut off switch or 2 m without the use of brake lever cut off switch. This requirement has to be checked according to the test methods described in 4.2.4.2.2 b);
    c) the output or assistance shall be progressively reduced (see Annex B) and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches the maximum assistance speed as designed. This requirement has to be checked according to the test methods described in 4.2.4.2;
    d) the assistance shall be progressively and smoothly managed.

 

[friendly1uk]

Yes. You have to be doing something. It is not a cruise control.

Okay - I misunderstood your post. Cruise control per se is not disallowed by the standard in that the nature of the assist is unspecified. It appears that assist as a fixed power or speed (cruise) can be applied (without throttle, etc) as long as it is enabled by pedaling and the cut-off, etc complies with the requirements for management:

• 4.2.4 Power management
  4.2.4.1 Requirements
  • When tested by the method described in 4.2.4.2 the recordings shall show that:
    a) assistance shall be provided only when the cyclist pedals forward. This requirement has to be checked according to the test methods described in 4.2.4.2.2 a);
    b) assistance shall be cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling forward such that the cut off distance does not exceed 5 m with the use of brake lever cut off switch or 2 m without the use of brake lever cut off switch. This requirement has to be checked according to the test methods described in 4.2.4.2.2 b);
    c) the output or assistance shall be progressively reduced (see Annex B) and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches the maximum assistance speed as designed. This requirement has to be checked according to the test methods described in 4.2.4.2;
    d) the assistance shall be progressively and smoothly managed.

You are reading the wrong part of the document if we are talking about the 6kmh function.

If your still trying to separate my cruise control comment from the 6kmh subject, I still don't see how. You have to pedal, so it's not a cruise control. Also if you set it to a speed it will never reach it due to part C.

 

[teklektik]

You are reading the wrong part of the document if we are talking about the 6kmh function.

If your still trying to separate my cruise control comment from the 6kmh subject, I still don't see how. You have to pedal, so it's not a cruise control. Also if you set it to a speed it will never reach it due to part C.

I am not talking about the 6kph function. I am discussing classic cruise control.

Perhaps this is a matter of terminology, but I would consider a 'cruise' feature as one that

• allowed some operating parameter (speed, power, current) to be set on the fly by 'engaging cruise' (in an auto you push the button)
• maintains that cruise setting until it is disengaged or perhaps superseded by other operator action (in an auto you press the accelerator or hit the brakes)

There seem to be two basic classifications of PAS: non-proportional (fixed current or watts assist) and proportional (assist varies with cadence and/or pedal torque). In the proportional case it seems that 'cruise' might be implemented so that the rider could achieve a desired speed and engage cruise (perhaps press a button) such that continued pedaling would maintain that speed or current as long as pedaling is detected (e.g. even for faux or very light pedaling). This is not different than an unusually high base level assist for proportional assist - and in the case of speed-based cruise, the actual power assist would not be fixed but rather varied dynamically by the PAS system up to the max power limit.

Subsequent operator pedaling that yielded proportional assist in excess of the 'set' level would take precedence (pressing the gas in a car) so the rider could get normal PAS assist above the set level all the way up to the normal limit of the system. This would comply with (c) exactly as in the case of a fixed or knob-adjusted base assist level.

Here the rider might get on a bike path, pedal to 14kph and engage cruise. The bike would chug along at that speed or current as long as the rider pedaled. Stop pedaling and assist stops. Hit the brakes and assist stops. Pedal faster and regular PAS mode proportionally increases assist normally to the max allowed speed/power; reduce effort and the bike drops back to the set level.

Anyhow - just an example of a behavior that appears to be allowed regardless of whether or not it's called 'cruise'...

 

[d8veh]

Anyone read this bit?

assistance shall be cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling forward such that the cut off distance does not
exceed 5 m with the use of brake lever cut off switch or 2 m without the use of brake lever cut off switch.

Hows that work then. If I stop pedaling it must cut power in 2 meters, but if I actually brake it can carry on for 5 meters? lol

You've misunderstood. The difference in time is because of the different motor control systems, When you have brake switches, the motor cuts instantly when you use them. so it's allowed for the motor to run on a bit when you stop pedalling because you have the option of stopping it instantly with the brakes. If you don't have brake switches, you need the motor to stop as soon as you stop pedalling. Many crank-drive bikes with torque sensors don't have brake switches.

 

[friendly1uk]

You are reading the wrong part of the document if we are talking about the 6kmh function.

If your still trying to separate my cruise control comment from the 6kmh subject, I still don't see how. You have to pedal, so it's not a cruise control. Also if you set it to a speed it will never reach it due to part C.

I am not talking about the 6kph function. I am discussing classic cruise control.

Perhaps this is a matter of terminology, but I would consider a 'cruise' feature as one that

• allowed some operating parameter (speed, power, current) to be set on the fly by 'engaging cruise' (in an auto you push the button)
• maintains that cruise setting until it is disengaged or perhaps superseded by other operator action (in an auto you press the accelerator or hit the brakes)

There seem to be two basic classifications of PAS: non-proportional (fixed current or watts assist) and proportional (assist varies with cadence and/or pedal torque). In the proportional case it seems that 'cruise' might be implemented so that the rider could achieve a desired speed and engage cruise (perhaps press a button) such that continued pedaling would maintain that speed or current as long as pedaling is detected (e.g. even for faux or very light pedaling). This is not different than an unusually high base level assist for proportional assist - and in the case of speed-based cruise, the actual power assist would not be fixed but rather varied dynamically by the PAS system up to the max power limit.

Subsequent operator pedaling that yielded proportional assist in excess of the 'set' level would take precedence (pressing the gas in a car) so the rider could get normal PAS assist above the set level all the way up to the normal limit of the system. This would comply with (c) exactly as in the case of a fixed or knob-adjusted base assist level.

Here the rider might get on a bike path, pedal to 14kph and engage cruise. The bike would chug along at that speed or current as long as the rider pedaled. Stop pedaling and assist stops. Hit the brakes and assist stops. Pedal faster and regular PAS mode proportionally increases assist normally to the max allowed speed/power; reduce effort and the bike drops back to the set level.

Anyhow - just an example of a behavior that appears to be allowed regardless of whether or not it's called 'cruise'...

Yes you are redefining cruise control. Pedaling is input, and that turns off cruise control. My bike actually has cruise control, and it works properly by definition. Any input from me turns it off. If you have to pedal to make it work, it is not a cruise control.

I do like what you are saying. With 250w either on or off with a simple magnet system you tend to reach 15km/h even if you don't want to. This is actually a bit dangerous not just a bit silly. It would be nice to simply 'cap it' or to enforce a 3 position power switch to dampen it down on congested paths. 250w is a healthy rider putting in some effort. It is a bit 'all or nothing' and some sort of variance would cost nothing financially and have great worth in operation.

 

[friendly1uk]

Anyone read this bit?

assistance shall be cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling forward such that the cut off distance does not
exceed 5 m with the use of brake lever cut off switch or 2 m without the use of brake lever cut off switch.

Hows that work then. If I stop pedaling it must cut power in 2 meters, but if I actually brake it can carry on for 5 meters? lol

You've misunderstood. The difference in time is because of the different motor control systems, When you have brake switches, the motor cuts instantly when you use them. so it's allowed for the motor to run on a bit when you stop pedalling because you have the option of stopping it instantly with the brakes. If you don't have brake switches, you need the motor to stop as soon as you stop pedalling. Many crank-drive bikes with torque sensors don't have brake switches.

In one system, you stop pedaling and the controller takes a moment to be sure. You can travel 2 meters in this time.
In the other system, you tell it in no uncertain terms that your stopping and it can take 5 meters to respond.

How can that not be backwards.

 

[d8veh]

The motor has to cut within two meters of stop pedalling. The 5m applies if you have brake cut-offs. To qualify as brake cut-offs, they would be expected to cut the motor immediately. The power is allowed to run on for 5m without using the brakes.The idea is that when you want to stop, you don't have the motor overpowering the brakes. If you run your bike with PAS and disconnect the brake connectors, you''ll see what I mean and what the standard is trying to control.

 

[lollandster]

The motor has to cut within two meters of stop pedalling. The 5m applies if you have brake cut-offs. To qualify as brake cut-offs, they would be expected to cut the motor immediately. The power is allowed to run on for 5m without using the brakes.The idea is that when you want to stop, you don't have the motor overpowering the brakes. If you run your bike with PAS and disconnect the brake connectors, you''ll see what I mean and what the standard is trying to control.

When riding at top speed (27km/h) 2 meters go by very fast while the pedals don't move too fast (depending on gear ratio). I'm wondering how the standard 5 magnet PAS ring copes with that? I don't have brake cut off at the moment because of hydraulic brakes, but I have ordered a 12 magnet pas ring.

 

[teklektik]

Yes you are redefining cruise control. Pedaling is input, and that turns off cruise control. My bike actually has cruise control, and it works properly by definition. Any input from me turns it off. If you have to pedal to make it work, it is not a cruise control.

Well - according to your definition anyhow... IMHO your requirement of 'any input' is unduly restrictive - automatic disengagment should only be concerned with operator actions that conflict with continued automatic maintenance of the throttle setting - the common thread between our two examples of autocruise is the automatic maintenance of the throttle setting, not some detail of disengagement. But, in the end we are only talking about the loosey-goosey world of feature identification for the purposes of discussion, and if you don't want what to consider what I described to be crusie control, that's fine...

But - I also have cruise control on my bike (via a CA V3). It works exactly the opposite of yours - if both autocruise and PAS modes are engaged the rider must pedal for the cruise control to apply power - stop pedaling and the cruise removes power. Different implementations of autocruise with different behavioral nuances...

I do like what you are saying. With 250w either on or off with a simple magnet system you tend to reach 15km/h even if you don't want to. This is actually a bit dangerous not just a bit silly. It would be nice to simply 'cap it' or to enforce a 3 position power switch to dampen it down on congested paths. 250w is a healthy rider putting in some effort. It is a bit 'all or nothing' and some sort of variance would cost nothing financially and have great worth in operation.

This is a matter distinct from the autocruise issue. My V3 PAS uses a simple magnet PAS wheel and gives me a custom assist-level knob to reduce assist from the max. It also gives me rpm-proportional assist - pedal faster (e.g. downshift) and the assist increases.

The point being that as with autocruise, we seem to have different PAS products with different implementation features... No biggie - even though these different products give very different riding experiences, we can still say 'PAS' or 'cruise control' and understand in general what the other is talking about....

 

[friendly1uk]

The motor has to cut within two meters of stop pedalling. The 5m applies if you have brake cut-offs. To qualify as brake cut-offs, they would be expected to cut the motor immediately. The power is allowed to run on for 5m without using the brakes.The idea is that when you want to stop, you don't have the motor overpowering the brakes. If you run your bike with PAS and disconnect the brake connectors, you''ll see what I mean and what the standard is trying to control.

Thanks for sticking with me on this. I finally figured out what they are saying.

It says

with the use of brake lever cut off switch

This has nothing to do with applying the brakes. It is if a manufacturer fitted them. I didn't find that clear at all.

 

[d8veh]

The motor has to cut within two meters of stop pedalling. The 5m applies if you have brake cut-offs. To qualify as brake cut-offs, they would be expected to cut the motor immediately. The power is allowed to run on for 5m without using the brakes.The idea is that when you want to stop, you don't have the motor overpowering the brakes. If you run your bike with PAS and disconnect the brake connectors, you''ll see what I mean and what the standard is trying to control.

When riding at top speed (27km/h) 2 meters go by very fast while the pedals don't move too fast (depending on gear ratio). I'm wondering how the standard 5 magnet PAS ring copes with that? I don't have brake cut off at the moment because of hydraulic brakes, but I have ordered a 12 magnet pas ring.

Correct. A bike like that won't pass EN15194 unless it has brake cut-off switches, which cut the power immediately.