EV Warrior Reborn

[katou]

The original plan:
Fix EV Warrior I bought at garage sale for 100 bucks, get it running.

Problem:
-It doesn’t run, nor will it charge. I don’t know how to test the motors directly to see if they are still operable. The wiring diagrams are impossible to find, and mine appears to have been modified with some crazy circuit board hot glued inside the motor compartment.

-I have no idea whether the motors run or what. There are certainly faults in the system somewhere, because I can't charge the batteries up. I don't know how to just hook the motors up to power. I would like to just hook them to 12v dc, but I’m pretty sure they need some sort of speed controller to make them run.

I am interested in the RC drive, and Matt's (recumpence) work is exemplary. I am more interested in the design he built for himself than the drive he currently has available. My main reason for preferring the V1 is to have all the gears and such covered so that everything is sealed from the environment (and prying fingers) except where necessary for cooling.

Here's the shopping list:

Motor:
Astro 3210 on bulk buy through Matt (if he can fit me on there) with a 8 turn wind making kv about 170. The 8 turn would top out at 48 V, which is fine because I don’t see running more than 48v on the battery side. This reasoning make sense?
2nd choice is the ubiquitous Turnigy 80-100-B at $150
*************************
Controller:
I would like to use the HV110 controller at $230, but I may be forced to use the 100A Turnigy Sentilon for $150.
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Transmission:
Choice 1: motor directly drives large gear (Extron) attached to rear hub cassette (right side) via White Industries Eno hub
Pro: simple, fast to build, Extron gears are cheap, allowing easy customization of ratio, allows use of Dual Drive hub
Con: motor is restricted in placement somewhat, dual drive hub is very expensive

Choice 2: single stage reduction similar to Matt’s, driving large gear (left side)
Pro: flexible, cool factor is very high, motor can be placed pretty much anywhere, easy to fit slipper clutch, will educate me greatly in the building, single speed on motor side
Con: time consuming to build, more variables to deal with, mechanical complexity may be more than I can handle

Choice 3: single stage reduction driving a sturmey Archer 3 speed hub mounted as a jackshaft which then feeds power down to large gear on wheel
Pro: gets me multi-speed on motor side, SA hubs are dead cheap
Con: will SA hub tolerate RPM and Torque? Don’t know. Hard to build knowing that the finished product might detonate some distance down the road, all cons of Choice 2. No disc mount on SA hub

Choice 4: front wheel drive like Cargo (see here: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7874)
Pro: Proven example that works. Multi-speed on motor side, motor is somewhat protected from elements, hub can be purchased with disc brake, Front fork to fit rear hub is available pre-made, Surly Pugsly
Con: Surly Pugsley is $116, and fabricated fork would add weight, and may not be strong enough long-term, still have to build single-stage reduction, new front hub is not cheap $500 for Shimano Alfine which is needed for disc mount.

Batteries
Torn between the Zippy FlightMax 5AH and the Yardworks LiMn batteries. Or maybe Turnigy lipo 22v 5ah for $90 ? I’m not sure.
charger ? Hyperion? I don’t know about this one yet.
********************************
Brakes
Jensen disc brake 50
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BEC 50 from Castle
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servo tester 25 from Castle
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Throttle – total blank on this one. Need some help here.
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The EV Warrior will have a boom out front to mount the pedals. The seat can be moved back and forth with about 4” of travel. The seat in these pictures is too large, but I figured that it was better to make it large, then cut down as needed.
The wheels are 26” but as you can see in the pictures, the seat is only about 25” from the ground because it is mounted directly to the frame tube.
The frame is very thick and strong, this is built like a tank. The geometry is just about ideal for a recumbent, nice and low to the ground, lots of room under the seat mount for motor/batts etc.
This project is set for a spring, early summer launch. It will be my first attempt at bike building, and electric bikes. So, positive encouraging comments are welcome!

KatouView attachment 2

 

[rkosiorek]

so i guess it would be too late to email you a complete wiring schematic for the bike.

the motors are brushed DC 24V motors made by Bosch. they are wired in parallel to a Curtis 1505 DC (24V 20A continuous, 80A for 10sec.) controller. one motor is set up to run CW and the other CCW. the motos are actually wired to run those directions and the brush plate is timed to optimise the diretion of rotation.

being brushed motors you can test them by connecting them directly to a battery.

but it looks like you are starting an interesting build.

rick

 

[katou]

Oh, I forgot, the steering will be a bit different. I plan to use a double-differential linkage to turn the steering axis parallel to the seat. That way I can have the steering wheel in my lap. It will hinge up out of the way for entering and exiting.

I have it on good faith from a designer of recumbent bikes that this approach will not work. I still must try it. I don't know why, but I must. Now I just need to find an aluminum ball joint type differential. McMaster-Carr describes them, but does not carry one.

BTW, the catalog McMaster has online is frigging amazing. They have pictures of almost everything!

Katou

EDIT: I meant double UNIVERSAL linkage for steering.

 

[katou]

No, never too late. Too late to save the brave Warrior from the coming transmogrification, yes. Mu ha ha ha ha. But the diagram will come in handy if I want to re-use any of the parts.

Thanks for the info on the motors, I would be very interested to test them, and now I can. I will get back to you on the results in the next week or so. I have to re-roof my shop and winterize it before I can start work inside again.

Katou

 

[rkosiorek]

i had one warrior that i used for years o test various motors on. over the years it has had front and rear hub motors, friction drives, chain drives, mid drives, crank drives etc. i found the frame to be very solid and forgiving. plus i always liked the looks.


had some timing slips for this arrangement showing sub 20sec @ 94Kph in the quarter. not shabby for a friction drive.



the battery box made for a very convenient place to mount stuff. very versatile. for a while there i was collecting these. i still have 3 frame sets. including the one in the pictures.

rick

 

[jmygann]

If running a RC motor shaft on a 26 in tire (friction drive), does it put the motor in the right RPM range ?

 

[rkosiorek]

never used an RC motor and i don't know what kind of RPM they are capable of. i assume it is very high.

the stock Bosch motors peak at 3500 to 4000 rpm at 24V. the drive roller is approx 1.375" diameter, giving a gear down of 18 or 19:1 using regular 26" tires. top speed on the stock bike is 18 or 20mph (30 to 32kph).

rick

 

[katou]

Where did the parts come from? I would have no idea where to source two Bosch motors at 750 watts. Are you saying that you went nearly 100kph on that bike? That is nuts! What was the electrical draw for that event? Did you have an extension cord running to a pace car?

Katou

 

[rkosiorek]

controller: Sevcon Millipak - 48V 300A current limit
Batteries: B&B EVP series high current SLA batteries. 48V system. hot off the charger voltage would sag to 38V at full power.
wiring 0AWG.

the motors were gifted by an engineer from Robert Bosch Canada. they are longer than the original 450W motors. no idea what their original purpose was. they would heat up like crazy. but since i was only interested in traveling either 1/8th or 1/4 mile at a time.... figured around 10KW peak. power could not be applied all at once as the drive roller would just slip. i built a small analog circuit to replace the throttle. i would punch a button and the throttle voltage would ramp up from 0 to full throttle. the time for the ramp was adjustable from 0 to 5 seconds. best times and least slip were with it set for 3 to 4 seconds. with the longer motors and 2 more batteries strapped to the sides the covers would not fit so i did not use them.

i was playing with the bike using the original motors at the drag strip in Cayuga Ontario when i met the engineer. he was interested in how the driveline was set up. we exchanged phone numbers. a couple of weeks later a box full of bigger motors showed up. met him a couple more times at Shannonville and St. Thomas strips. never actively competed with the bike. just did impromptu demo runs during street racing meets. you know the usual bicycle with B&D Drill motor or Kitchen Aid mixer motor beats VW Bug type thing.

batteries would be darn near drained after each 1/4 mile run. peak performance would only last 75 to 100 charge/discharge cycles.

high speed wobble was the killer. i could see the front tire rubber squirm like a snake on the rim. they weren't cheapie tires either usually Schwalabe Big Apple or similar. started at 80 but over 90 it was a bear to control. with a cross wind it was real bad.

rick

 

[AussieJester]

had some timing slips for this arrangement showing sub 20sec @ 94Kph in the quarter. not shabby for a friction drive.

Interesting... Dont happen to have this on video at all do you? Or the time slips so we can see if they better the current "record"? DoctorBass had a 1/4 mile time in the mid 19 seconds at ~94km/hr Considered to be the quickest e-bike 1/4mile time to date..

KiM

 

[Thud]

Is there an official record for bikes kept here ?

This may be a competition the entire globe could participate in.
I nominate Kim(AussieJester the offcial time keeper) & recomeded an 1/8 mile for ease of participation
or 500 meters or transcontinetal (?)

who's up for old time drag racing?

 

[AussieJester]

Is there an official record for bikes kept here ?

DoctorBass created a thread last year sometime so members could post their 100m acceleration times but this
didn't really attract a great deal of interest long term unfortuneatly, i think most members here are more interested in the e-bike reliabilty
and range rather than their acceleration or speed which is the sensible thing to do as i gather most are using their ebikes as legitimate forms of transport. The power hungry amongst us form a minority, which probably is a good thing when you think about it, if everyone here was racing around on 10kw e-bikes it wouldnt take long a member to be busted or seriously hurt...I could see authorities having a knee jerk reaction to it and toughening laws too...not that it can get much worse in Australia ... whats down from 200watt...Being only allowed one crank arm on the bike to pedal with hehehee ;-P

As for records...There is no listing for a world record ebike in official records only a self proclaimed 'World Record' which out side
of Endless Sphere is meaningless. There could be dozens of fellas/gals with ebikes quicker that don't participate on ES. ...For any record to be 'official' it would have to be either recognised by NEDRA or The Guiness Book Of World Records.

Currently on THIS site DoctorBass has reported fastest times over 1/4 mile which s why i was asking for rkosiorek's
exact times from his slip as what he reported are almost identical to DocBass. LiveForPhysics has TOP speed of 64mph... BUT i also recall a post (i can't locate now) of a members ebike with a reported top speed of 120km/hr (74mph)...

I'm not sure a dedicated thread for it is wise TBH, promoting illegal ebikes isn't really a positive action and could ultimately lead to
members with $$$ and little experience getting badly hurt trying to out do each other. Efficiency range and reliability I think are the more appropriate subjects that the site should (and does) focus on, leave the high speed stuff 'buried' somewhat ...JM2C

KiM

p.s ill be having a crack at sub 20 second 1/4mile in the new year, if i can get past ANDRAs scrutineers at the local strip that is hahaa...the pricks...

 

[rkosiorek]

I was not trying to set any kind of record. i was just trying to beat a VW Beetle in the quarter. i did not think thaat then nor do i think that now, that in any way, shape or form did i have the fastest electric bike around.

the bike in that form was in no way practical for street use. the motor was basically either accelerating or off via a push button. better brakes were also seriously needed. i think that i had pretty much exhausted the speed potential for that setup. it was not going to get much faster. bikes like the doc's are just starting to explore their potential. bikes like his should be much faster.

a few years ago following an accident i spent 4 months in hospital recoveringand rehabilitating. during that time i had to give up my apartment. friends were responsible for packing up and moving my belongings into storage. i have still not finished sorting through all of the junk i have in storage. hopefully i will find the timing slips among the stuff still unpacked, unsorted and remaining in storage.

anyways i do not claim any kind of record. i'm pretty sure that the Doctor will iron out a whatever bugs in his setup and get it running much faster in the spring. i am very much surprised that he has not done so already.

rick

 

[jmygann]

Warriors on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/1996-EV-WARRIOR-Electric-Bike-Bicycle-AEROSPOKE_W0QQitemZ380075199618QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRoad_Bikes?hash=item587e3f4c82

http://cgi.ebay.com/EV-WARRIOR-Electric-Bike-Bicycle_W0QQitemZ250540142140QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRoad_Bikes?hash=item3a555b2e3c

 

[jmygann]

regarding ....1/8 and 1/4 mile times/speed

what is the clocked time in 1/8 mile ? 1/4 mile ?? for a pedal electric ?

I thought Josh had a 12.09

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbnbacAV3qk&feature=related

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wmbates/3567270121/in/set-72157618833097116/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wmbates/3567260039/in/set-72157618833097116/

 

[AussieJester]

^^ Doesnt seem overley quick off the mark but hes hiking at the end! Any idea of his top speed on the 1/4mile?

KiM

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

I am interested in the RC drive, and Matt's (recumpence) work is exemplary. I am more interested in the design he built for himself than the drive he currently has available. My main reason for preferring the V1 is to have all the gears and such covered so that everything is sealed from the environment (and prying fingers) except where necessary for cooling.

Chain guard or drive cover?

Motor:
Astro 3210 on bulk buy through Matt (if he can fit me on there) with a 8 turn wind making kv about 170. The 8 turn would top out at 48 V, which is fine because I don’t see running more than 48v on the battery side. This reasoning make sense?

No. You could run the 8t at up to about 70v.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=13265&start=45#p217039

It looks like he lists a mechanical RPM limit of 12,000. This would mean the optimal performance wind for folks running 48v systems would be the 5 turn, which once you factor in voltage drop would be just about perfect for extracting maximum power from the 3210…

You may find much better luck at making a nice quiet simple single-stage drivetrain bike by choosing a lower KV wind, and sacrificing a bit of the potential power the motor is capable of pumping out.

Transmission:
Choice 1: motor directly drives large gear (Extron) attached to rear hub cassette (right side) via White Industries Eno hub

With a single stage (Choices 2 and 3 are dual stage) you will have a hard time getting more reduction than about 10:1.
170(kv) * 48v * .85 (rough deduction for gearing because kv is unloaded) / 10 = almost 700 rpm.

If you use a DD hub on the rear your top speed in 1st will be about 42mph and in 3rd it will be almost 70mph. With that gearing acceleration and hill climbing will be poor and you will probably overheat the motor and/or blow your esc.

Choice 2: single stage reduction similar to Matt’s, driving large gear (left side)
Pro:…single speed on motor side

Choice 3: single stage reduction driving a sturmey Archer 3 speed hub mounted as a jackshaft which then feeds power down to large gear on wheel
Pro: gets me multi-speed on motor side

Why are the exact opposite conditions pro's (single speed on motor side and multi-speed on motor side)? :?

 

[katou]

Fair enough, I made a mistake it appears.

With Recumpence drive, there are two big con's, single speed only, and large left side gear makes use of disc brake impossible. I accidentally put the single speed limitation on the pro side. Oops.

The cover would go over the entire motor/transmission assembly. Not over the final drive chain down to the rear wheel sprocket. Basically, where there is stuff that is spinning really, really fast that might not obviously be dangerous, and stuff that doesn't like water.

I'm quite surprised that so few have added covers like this to their motor assemblies. I would think it was de rigeur.

Update- I have found some cheap batteries, now I'm just waiting to get the right security torx bit to open them. Gar.

I am leaning towards the complicated design, fabricating my own recumpence style drive going down to a Dualdrive hub. I'm going to make this a seriously cushy ride. With a recumbent, weight isn't so much of a concern, given the way you have to ride them. I just hope that I will not seriously regret going without suspension. I'd love to have suspension, but that would necessitate purchase of an entirely new frame, and they ain't cheap for recumbents. Anybody that can prove me wrong will get my undying respect and appreciation. Cheap for me is 300$ or so.

Katou

 

[LockH]

I see another used EV Warrior has popped up outside of Ottawa in Ontario:
http://www.usedottawa.com/classified-ad/Warrior-Electric-Bike_23785698