Even Newer 4 to 24-cell Battery Management System (BMS)

I should point out that for Thundersky or A123 cells, some may want a slightly higher low voltage cutoff. This is a function of the TC54 voltage monitor, which is available in a variety of cutoff voltages. This should be specified before hand to make sure you get the right value. If you want a value that Gary does not have in stock, you may need to order these separately.

The upper voltage is a function of the divider resistors and can be tweaked by changing the resistor values.
 
About the TC54s:

I think these are only available in small quantities at 2.1v and 2.7v (in a T0-92 case). Microchip spec's them at 4.3, 4.2, 3.0, 2.9, 2.7, 2.1, 1.4; in a TO-92 minimum quantity is 1000. For my application, I'm going either 2.9 or 3.0 V. Yes, I can use a resistive divider, but a monolithic part is better. So I have three questions:

How much trouble is it to fit a divider? I'm thinking mostly about space, neatness and reliability (always an issue with vibration).

Does anybody know where to get other values, in small quantities, in a TO-92?

How about a low cost SOT-23 or SOT-89 carrier that fits the TO-92 footprint? Or would it be possible to solder an SMD part onto the board directly?

Thanks,

Patrick
 
Patrick,

I'm putting a board together now, and a voltage divider pair of little 1/8 watt resistors could be rigged to the TC-54. It wouldn't be neat or elegant, or very easy in any quantity. The relatively low frequencies of road vibration would probably not affect such small light parts - but you could also attach the TC54/resistors assembly to the adjoining capacitor C, with a dab of glue, to be sure.

For my Thundersky cells, I watch the pack voltage closely and don''t come close to 2.5 volts per cell unless a cell is probably defective anyway. I am also assuming there is a safety factor in the recommended 2.5 volt lower limit - and it may not be applicable to the voltage sag at high discharge rates and/or in cooler weather - similar to sealed lead acid cells. But I understand that if you are building something you are selling to a ordinary consumer, you can't be so "cavalier" about it.
 
Patrick said:
Does anybody know where to get other values, in small quantities, in a TO-92?

How about a low cost SOT-23 or SOT-89 carrier that fits the TO-92 footprint? Or would it be possible to solder an SMD part onto the board directly?

Thanks,

Patrick

I think you could attach a SOT-89 directly to the board, since the pin configuration is the same. Not really sure without holding one up to a board though. DigiKey had some in 2.9v.

A divider could be done, but it would be messy and a lot of work. Finding the right TC-54 would be the best.
 
Patrick said:
About the TC54s:

Does anybody know where to get other values, in small quantities, in a TO-92?

Thanks,

Patrick

Patrick, Looks like Digikey's are non-stock, with a minimum of 2,000 to order, but small quantities can be had at Mouser:


Here's your T0-92 package in 2.9v ,$.64 each: http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=Y8sGFBEOzV8KcBX%2boOimkg==
Here's the same in 3.0v, $.64 each: http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=KmC0hySzDXKSgdwN7yJxPA==

Of course, you have to use different resistor values in the LVC portion of the circuit to optimize the current that drives the optos, but thats another topic.

--Tom_D
 
Tom_D said:
Patrick, Looks like Digikey's are non-stock, with a minimum of 2,000 to order, but small quantities can be had at Mouser:


Here's your T0-92 package in 2.9v ,$.64 each: http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=Y8sGFBEOzV8KcBX%2boOimkg==
Here's the same in 3.0v, $.64 each: http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=KmC0hySzDXKSgdwN7yJxPA==

Of course, you have to use different resistor values in the LVC portion of the circuit to optimize the current that drives the optos, but thats another topic.

--Tom_D

Thanks Tom_D. But, err, aren't the Mouser parts non-stock as well? Am I missing something?

The reason I'm so specific is that these boards are for full size scoots with 40+ mile range. You don't want to be far away and have the bike tell you "OK - 3 miles left!". So at 3.0 V (under load) I've got about 75% DOD - a good reserve, and good for cycle life as well.
 
You might be able to put a diode in series with one to raise it by about .7v Trigger point will be a bit temperature sensitive, but not too bad.
 
"So at 3.0 V (under load) I've got about 75% DOD - a good reserve, and good for cycle life as well..."

Patrick,

At 90 amps, and nearly fully charged, my pack is sags to a bit less than 3.0 volts per cell, on cooler 55F mornings. It will be interesting to see what happens as fall weather sets in.

So, I decided on the 2.1 volt value, assuming momentary voltage sag under full load in cooler weather will not hurt the cells. Have you heard any real-world experience regarding this?
 
PJD said:
At 90 amps, and nearly fully charged, my pack is sags to a bit less than 3.0 volts per cell, on cooler 55F mornings. It will be interesting to see what happens as fall weather sets in.

So, I decided on the 2.1 volt value, assuming momentary voltage sag under full load in cooler weather will not hurt the cells. Have you heard any real-world experience regarding this?

Hmm, that's interesting. I'm using the Shandong 50 Ah, and I've only bench tested single cells indoors. Good point you raise, I'll need to check that (somehow) before I finalize, I suppose. I checked the specs on the SOT-89 - it's close, but as Fechter said, I need to try it on a board. I'm hopeful I can use the EZ-Bake oven to mount them all at once (before mounting any other parts) - any thoughts on that Gary or Richard? I've never done it, but some friends have, and it sure would be easier than soldering 48 leads I can barely see. Also, as a note - I'm only going to use the LVC to sound/light an alert - no controller connection.

I will ask around, but I think the fully instrumented folks are all inland, where temps are usually 75-80+. Will let you know.
 
It might generally be a good idea to have some other state of charge indicator, like a CA or Curtis amp-hour meter to keep an eye on the batteries. The LVC in the BMS should be like an emergency backup to prevent cell damage. The normal LVC in a controller would be a good first or second line of defense.
 
fechter said:
It might generally be a good idea to have some other state of charge indicator, like a CA or Curtis amp-hour meter to keep an eye on the batteries. The LVC in the BMS should be like an emergency backup to prevent cell damage. The normal LVC in a controller would be a good first or second line of defense.

Ah Ha! Trying to fend off the lawsuits already . . . . .

But on a serious note. Yes, some kind of SOC /range indicator is desirable, and I'll see how the controller I've got will work, though it is tuned for lead. But I (and I assume a lot of others) am depending on the LVC functionality exactly to prevent cell damage; not as an emergency backup, but as the primary monitoring system (which is why I want it to trigger at 75% DOD). Can we depend on it to do this?

You can see from the controller shots below why I would approach modifying it with fear and trembling.
 

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Will the magic BMS work okay with a dumb charger like this:

http://store.schumachermart.com/se-1072.html

The multiple voltages is really nice.

Richard
 
rf said:
Will the magic BMS work okay with a dumb charger like this:

http://store.schumachermart.com/se-1072.html

The multiple voltages is really nice.

Richard

I don't think these unregulated supplies will work. It needs to have a current limit mode, and then a voltage limit that holds the voltage while the current tapers down.

-- Gary
 
momo said:
Exactly. Where are these boards or kits??? We all need them.

I'm spending my Labor Day holiday finishing up the last kits from the first batch, while my family is down enjoying themselves in San Diego. As I've said before, there is way too much labor involved to do anymore of these kits (for zero profit, I might add...) so what I'm going to do is just offer the boards, with the illustrated instructions and a complete Mouser part list. IThese will be available as soon as the last of the kits go out.
 
Patrick, does that controller have a brake input? Usually most of these type controllers have an input for a brake pedal switch. If so, this could be used with the LVC opto output. The other option, assumng you have either a resistive or hall effect-type throttle input is to connect the LVC lines to the controller ground and the throttle signal line. This will momentarily pull the throttle signal to ground, if one of the LVC circuits trips. The circuit lets go as soon as the load goes away, so the effect is like a big tuna hitting your line (sorry for the sportfishing metaphor, but that's what I'd be doing today if I wasn't stuck here, making BMS kits... :D). If you don't let off the throttle, it will "hit" again. It definitely gets your attention, not unlike getting whacked updside the head, as my wife is prone to do to me. ;)

With most LiFePO4 cells I've dealt with, the voltage stays up much better than SLAs, or pretty much anything else. The higher the cell's "C" rating, the more pronounced this is. Actually it is the C-rating times the capacity, minus the load. What this means is that you can get the same "staying power" effect with lower C-rated cells if you have more capacity. Anyway, the point is that for lots of setups, the pack feels as strong 30 seconds from the end, as it does right at the beginning. Without the LVC function looking after each cells voltage, you can easily get to the point that the cells dump, and when that happens, the cell voltage can go from 3V to nothing in about 10-20 seconds. It doesn't really matter what version of the TC54 detector is used, as what you are trying to do is trying to catch that sudden voltage drop, while it is under load, before it drains down to where even the resting voltage is well below 3V. I've tried 2.1V and 2.7V versions, both with a123 and LiFeBatt-based packs, and haven't really seen a difference. Basically, from what I've seen, thee is usually about 10% of capacity left when I get the first "hit". If I back off the throttle a bit, I can go anothr couple miles before it starts hitting at even half-throttle. In short order, it goes into an oscillation, at about a 1/2Hz rate, with even the slightest amount of throttle. At this point the resting voltage of the LiFeBatt packs is about 3.0V per cell, and about 3.1V for my a123-based packs. In both cases, the packs take back in almost exactly their rated capacity.

The other function the LVC circuits are useful for is to detect when you have a bad/weak cell. In this case, the cell's voltage will drop a lot more than the others, when under load. If you detect that this is happening, a quick check of the resting voltage of each cell should show the faulty one. Another indication of a weak cell is during the charge process if one of the orange LEDs repeatedly comes on a lot sooner than the rest. Weak cells lose capacity, so they drain quicker, and get full faster.

-- Gary
 
Well everything tested OK and the board works reasonably well with my 40AH thundersky pack. Couple observations and questions:

1. The BMS cannot be expected to handle any really significant imbalance in larger packs - only maintain balance, as all it takes is one high cell going into full shunt to throttle the charge current back to the point that it would take perhaps a day or more for the low cell to come up. This was a first charging of new pack, and so some cells were a bit out of balance. After the first charging attempt, I used power supply to charge four low cells - ones reading 3.45 while others were shunting at 3.71. I then "overshot" with these cells and a subsequent charging had these four cells in full shunt while the others were coming up only very slowly, so I discharges these with a parallel string of auto light bulbs, and tried again, this time getting all cells shunting evenly in a reasonable time - 20 min or so. This probably won't be a problem in regular use, as the BMS should maintain the pack in reasonable balance from this point onward.

2. The board does get hot - especially if you give enough time to be sure all cells are charged evenly down to the same terminal charging amps. As the board heated up, the cell voltage decreased from 3.70 to 3.71 down to 3.66-3.67. I was getting a bit uneasy at how hot the shunt resistors and transistors were getting, so I started blowing on the board, the shunting decreased, the charge amperage increased (easily noticeable because my charger fan speed is regulated by the charger current) and the cell voltage went back up to 3.70-3.71. Is heating of the LM431's or the reference voltage resistors, by the adjacent transistor and resistor causing the shunt set-point to change? Perhaps future versions should move these components further from the heat sources.

The unit will be mounted behind an access cover, so a fan may be a good idea. I'm looking for an elegant way to set this up.

3. This is not a "plug-in and forget" solution (as already discussed), the charger will run and the shunts will put out their heat indefinitely until the charger is manually turned off. Some kind of wall-plug timer might be a good stop-gap solution. But a timer triggered by the first shunt activating (like the abortive earlier version had) is still a good idea.
 
Thanks so much Gary, for all your hard work. Richard and Bob too. And everyone else that contributed.

This board is a wonderful work of engineering teamwork. And I suspect will prove to be a sizeable contribution to alternative energy, alternative transportation, the environment and other cool things too.

(If anyone makes a 20-cell version please let me know. Or `daughter cards' for this one. :)


Thanks!

Richard
p.s. Great deals are nice. But those kits were under-priced. Gary in particular has done the community an incredible favor. Folks that have taken advantage of his efforts might consider sending him some additional funds in appreciation of his hard work. Heck, if he feels better able to buy more equipment and toys to explore new possibilities that could only be a good thing.

rf
 
After a few requests for a "tearoff" version of the BMS, where unused channels are simply cut off, I came up with this:

24-Cell%20LiFePO4%20BMS-v1.6-PCB.png


Basically it will let the user choose either 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 or 24-channels. If there is much interest, I will get a bunch made, which is the only way to keep the cost down to something reasonable. Just doing two, for instance would end up costing about $65 each, due to the complexity. If, on the otherhand, not many would ever want 24 full channels, I could cut this down to 20 channels, and save a bit. Anyway, if anybody is interested in this style of BMS board, please PM me, and let me know how many channels you plan to use.

This layout is 3" x 11.80". I'm still trying to decide what the best format is going to be for my own 72V setups. I'm not sure if I will use a single 24-channel version, or two 12-channel boards, one stacked on the other. Actually, I could cut one of these in half, and just stack the second half on top of the first, using some standoffs. I need this to mount on the front of my LiFeBatt pack.

Anyway, I like the idea of having one layout, that would pretty much satisfy most setups, as I can then increase the quantity in order to get the best price possible. But, if only a couple of people want/need the full 24-channel version, I could lop off, say 4-channels, and save some more money. I'm guessing the majority will want 16 channels, but I know I've heard from quite a few that would like at least 20 channels, so we'll see.

-- Gary
 
rf said:
Thanks so much Gary, for all your hard work. Richard and Bob too. And everyone else that contributed.

This board is a wonderful work of engineering teamwork. And I suspect will prove to be a sizeable contribution to alternative energy, alternative transportation, the environment and other cool things too.

(If anyone makes a 20-cell version please let me know. Or `daughter cards' for this one. :)


Thanks!

Richard
p.s. Great deals are nice. But those kits were under-priced. Gary in particular has done the community an incredible favor. Folks that have taken advantage of his efforts might consider sending him some additional funds in appreciation of his hard work. Heck, if he feels better able to buy more equipment and toys to explore new possibilities that could only be a good thing.

rf

Ask, and ye shall receive... :mrgreen:

Thanks for the kind thoughts, but for me it has never really been about the money, although I certainly want to stop losing anymore. The problem is the time drain. The kits just have too many parts to try and do this myself. I am not trying to make a profit on these, just break even. I just can't aford to spend hours on end putting the kits together. I don't have a problem selling the boards at close to my cost, plus shipping, but selling the kits for cost, was just too much. What makes matters worse is that I have this consulting job that is consuming most of my free time of late, and will continue to do so for the next few months anyway. Sending the boards out is easy enough that I can have my wife and son help out while I'm off playing aerospace engineer again.

-- Gary
 
GGoodrum said:
Patrick, does that controller have a brake input? The other option, assumng you have either a resistive or hall effect-type throttle input is to connect the LVC lines to the controller ground and the throttle signal line.

With most LiFePO4 cells I've dealt with, the voltage stays up much better than SLAs, or pretty much anything else. The higher the cell's "C" rating, the more pronounced this is. Actually it is the C-rating times the capacity, minus the load. What this means is that you can get the same "staying power" effect with lower C-rated cells if you have more capacity. Anyway, the point is that for lots of setups, the pack feels as strong 30 seconds from the end, as it does right at the beginning. Without the LVC function looking after each cells voltage, you can easily get to the point that the cells dump, and when that happens, the cell voltage can go from 3V to nothing in about 10-20 seconds.
-- Gary

Thanks for the thoughtful response. No brake input - regen is controlled via throttle to emulate compression braking - it feels very natural. I don't want (can't) jigger the throttle, 'cause of hill climbs. Getting home today I climbed a 1000', back to sea level, and another 600' climb. i just want the thing to tell me I'm getting close, and I'll figure out how to deal with it. But I still want max power available if I need it.

You've pointed out an advantage to using lower C rated cells - a slower discharge "knee". On these scoots, I'm planning on 50 Ah, 2C cells; max current draw up steep (18%) hills is ~90 amps. Here is the discharge curve:



Even under pretty heavy load, I've still got about 23% left when I hit 3.0 V. At standard run rates, that should be about a 10 mile reserve, 5 for sure even with hills. I looked at the SOT-89, and even if I have to solder leads on, it's almost exactly a match for the TO-92, so I think I'm good one way or another.

Thanks!
 
Your so humble Gary. Thank you..

I am personally currently using 16cells and thought about stepping up to 20. The idea you have
being able to cut down to the proper cell count would be great. i would like to purchase from you when available.
 
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