Factory Direct Worksman fourth wheel trike

[Sancho's Horse]

Greetings Lauded Pantheon of Endless Sphere Members,

I have spent considerable time on this forum but never posted.
Not that I ever expected to achieve anything resembling expertise prior to posting, but with the time and talent which has gone into this forum, attempting an informed post is the least I can do (besides if it will free up time for your creation of more cool things, I think we both win).

I have begun working on a Worksman trike with some serious history.


This trike came from the Borg-Warner plant in Muncie, Indiana (USA). I do not know how old the trike is, but Warner Gear opened in Muncie in 1901. I have been told that there were some trikes prior to WWII, and a good deal more bought in the 60's (which I think this one may be) and more in the 70's and 80's. For good reason, there was more than a million square foot of shop floor prior to closing (with even more square footage in two large previously demolished out-buildings). For the majority of the plant history (up until the 80's?) the actual shop floor was comprised of wood timbers set on end (grain exposed) which would literally float on oil coming from the machines, occassionally overcoming friction and allowing a square to "pop-up." It was a major producer during WWII and when my grandfather started there it was packed with machines with only a few lanes for these bikes to bring the expert machinists, and was nothing but (as my grandfather always put it) "assholes and elbows." My grandfather, all of his brothers, and brother in-law all worked there when they came back fro the war, and my family had over 214 years of service in that building. They worked very hard, and I think it was their experiences in WWII which forged their industriousness, because industrial might was often the difference between the living and the dead. My father was lucky enough to get on after the recession in the 80's and eventually worked up to midnights plant superintendent/manager. I began working security during the "successful drawdown of operations" while putting myself through a Masters in Physiology degree and working as a lab instructor for pre-nursing courses (yes, I fudged on how many hours I was working when questioned by the Dept. Chair).

I was able to get one of the few remaining trikes which the Amish didn't get in the auction, belonging to an old custom hot-rod enthusisast pipe-fitter who kept it to help take the plant apart. I didn't get it because of hard work or performance of duty. After finishing course work, I began working 48-56 hours a week, changing shifts at least twice a week, and was sometimes a wreck. I hope nothing got past me, but who knows? No, I had a lot of time to look at cameras and think. I didn't end up going to medical school (although I married a doctor from China), didn't even take the MCAT, instead I took a big risk. I believe I got the trike because even though I never explained what I was working on all those hours after the plant was cleared out, people knew I was working on something and they were willing to place a throwaway bet on me.

Either way, I now have a son and daughter, and I am all in. I am going to start posting and asking questions about how to modify this trike for my business. Any guidance or comments would be greatly appreciated.

I told you it had serious history :wink:

 

[Sancho's Horse]

This bike is certainly not an ideal setup due to its poor handling characteristics (cornering/slopes) and extreme weight. However, due to its history, it is what I am going to use. I titled the thread "fourth wheel trike" because I have been working on trailer hitch ideas reminiscent of a truck's fifth wheel. I will post some pics after I get a little sleep and take my son to preschool.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

Proper consideration of the Center of Gravity (COG) may certainly seem like cutting edge technical information if you are debating whether the earth is flat, or the Sun is the center of the universe.
However, it is probably the single greatest safety issue (aside from braking) on bikes of this sort.

Optimizing COG and handling in my application is really two separate issues: optimizing for the trike itself, and then making compromises and considerations for the use of a trailer. I am going to begin by addressing the limitations of the trike itself and some of my "solutions." There is no sense in reinventing the wheel so if you are interested in these issues, I found some of the discussion in a tilting trike thread to be useful:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21308&start=15

Particularly the link by TylerDurden:
http://www.jetrike.com/why-does-tilting-matter.html

On this page there are some important images. Look at them (but I will describe anyways). The "optimal COG" front to back is determined by making a triangle (as seen from overhead) from the center of each wheel at the axle, finding the midpoint of each side and drawing the intersection of these points. Boom optimal COG. The optimal COG is largley OK with the worksman, and while I will be leaving some room for moving wieght around due to trailer considerations, I will leave that until I can use the best COG detector I have, real world "how does it feel" testing.

The real challenge is modifying the tipping point COG. Again, look at the pictures from TylerDurden's link. The tipping point COG is a triangle made from the back wheel base, or the length of the axle (technically called the "track"), and a point drawn through the midpoint of the axle from the ground (at the midpoint of the wheelbase) up half the length of the axle. Confused yet? Look at the picture. If the COG remains in this golden area during a turn, all is good... if not... you will be tipping the cow. With these Worksman trikes the rider is generally the largest determiner of COG placement, and with the rider so high up, sneezing feels dangerous. So, this is the real challenge. How to get more weight low, and towards the tires? Or, how to expand the triangle? Expanding the wheel base is one option, but you definitely get into issues of being a hassle to others, and being able to get into tight spaces. Battery placement, and lowering the seat helps, but all we are really talking about is how to make it better, it will always be a problem.

While it would be wonderful to reinvent the geometry of this bike and turn it into a possibly more stable tilting trike (which I have thought about using some gearing I have around), this is not practical for most DIY builders. Also, I feel that building a machine which appeals to the old, the practical and the cheap is one of the royal roads to EV adoption. It is a sucky, slow, bumpy, road I will be travelling, but by God I will get the groceries.

 

[teklektik]

I believe you are over thinking this and turning a funky restoration into a science project. This bike is what it is and you should bring it to a new life to celebrate its past instead of re-engineering it.

Strip it, paint it, get some replacement Worksman decals, put on some nice balloon tires to carry it happily on the street, bang out the fenders or get new ones, add a front hub motor, and put batteries of your choice in the box. Done. Zero technical challenges.

You'll be riding and enjoying a sweet piece of history in no time.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

Ok, feeling McBetter. Ok, now to something actually useful in the real world.

If you have any spare mountain bike handlebars around they fit perfectly in the seat post tube.

In my experience, this bike is prone to going up on two wheels, and this arrangement gives you some additional leverage in correcting these situations. You only give up one inch of seat height compared to the lowest standard position WRT COG. It does not increase the width of the bike. However, the additional creature comfort possibilities, such as my forthcoming coffee mug "panniers," and the potential for other applications for non-trike bikers, such as a strong attachment point for who knows? maybe some batteries, makes it well worth the additional inch. It is easy to find some round bar stock to fit in the new seat tube from your local home improvement store. You will also need a piece of pipe which fits securely in the seat attachment point, prior to drilling, because you do not want any movement here. While the handlebars have little room for height adjustment, you can still adjust the seat height with the standard twist lock down, if you are willing to put in a little wiggle work.

Unfortunately, it is a lot like the "Oh, No!" (or insert your word here) straps which you find in cars and trucks, and this will likely be used with the same language. However, I will be using my butt instead of my hand, and the stakes are greater. I will eventually be using it as an attachment point for a roll cage if my children are riding on the back.

Kids calling.

 

[docnjoj]

Hello and welcome
I hope that this post is helpful, because that is my intention only. These guys make an affordable tilting trike in delta configuration like the Worksman. They are Canadian and make a lot of Handcycles and trikes for disabled folks too, but the tilter has some interesting features. I hope this is helpful

http://www.varnahandcycles.com/cycles.htm

otherDoc

 

[Sancho's Horse]

I agree teklektik. I overthink everything. Unless you consider my relations with the opposite sex. They get the better of me every time . I hope it will be a sweet ride, and true to its history. I am going to modify it, but I hope the loss of historical accuracy, and patina, will ultimately be true to the spirit of what drove these guys who were riding it before me. Besides, it has some real problems with bent front forks, which are incompatible with electrification.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

Thanks docnjoj,

But this is about blood and honor. Not cost or comfort. Good to see a fellow physiologist. I studied methods of ammending mitochondrial glutathione levels in the rat renal cortex and medulla for kidney transplant scenarios. Sorry to go off topic, but, unlike many of the bodies redox shifts, or battery chemistries for that matter, the heat of reaction on this is too high to be easily reversible.

I have been burning like an ICE on this for a while, and there is definitely no going back.

 

[docnjoj]

Thanks docnjoj,

But this is about blood and honor. Not cost or comfort. Good to see a fellow physiologist. I studied methods of ammending mitochondrial glutathione levels in the rat renal cortex and medulla for kidney transplant scenarios. Sorry to go off topic, but, unlike many of the bodies redox shifts, or battery chemistries for that matter, the heat of reaction on this is too high to be easily reversible.

I have been burning like an ICE on this for a while, and there is definitely no going back.

I've been retired from surgery and anesthesia for a long while now and really teach simple stuff like anatomy and Pharmacology. At 67 you don't quite remember all the "right stuff". Howeverif I were gonna copy a tilter that is the simplist one I can think of. Check out the rear axle on the Varna.
otherdoc

 

[Hillhater]

Sorry to go off topic, but, unlike many of the bodies redox shifts, or battery chemistries for that matter, the heat of reaction on this is too high to be easily reversible.

Are you sure you have not been sampling some of those pharmaceuticals ? :lol:

 

[Sancho's Horse]

docnjoj - OK, I understand now. I am not building a tilting trike. That is far more involved than I have time for. I just linked to the tilting trike thread because, for anyone coming to this without a background, the modifications which I am making need context, and that thread provides it. I just want to tweak delta trikes to improve safety and performance. I am not sure what I thought you were suggesting but I am clear now.

Hillhater - I have access to the most mind altering substance you can imagine...kids.

 

[Hillhater]

..Hillhater - I have access to the most mind altering substance you can imagine...kids.

Oh yah ! kids can test your mental strength...but i find the adult female of our species a much greater challenge to my psychological stability than anything else.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

Looking at Sheldon Brown's database on bike seat stem sizes, the comment is made that most steel bicycle frames have ISO, standard 1", 25.4mm seat posts.
http://sheldonbrown.com/seatpost-sizes.html
However, if you have a non-steel frame, a specialty bike, or have a European built bike, things may be more problematic for you.

His discussion of handlebar stem sizes also indicates an ISO standard, 1", 25.4mm stem is most prevalent.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-handlebars.html

I will take my calipers to Wal Mart tomorrow and check, but it appears...

the fit of handlebars to a seatpost tube is easily achieved with cheap readily available parts.

Tubing thickness will vary, but I just took the handlebars to Menards, and plugged in various pieces of metal until I found a snug fit. I walked away with a 10" long, 3/8" piece of steel pipe, a 3/8" coupler which, with a little grinding, drilling and filing will fit the bike seat perfectly and everything cost $2.97.

With a little hacksawing, or tube bending, or whatever you have available, it certainly seems you could have a secure additional attachment point for batteries. I haven't really researched optimal battery placement on a bike thoroughly since I have been working primarily on trike issues. However, it certainly seems superior to rear wheel rack placement, and much more akin to just being a little fat (geometrically speaking).

Of course this has been done before on ES, proven unreliable, and discarded right? Yes...No?

 

[Sancho's Horse]

hillhater - I am pretty fond of the mind altering my kids have done to me (mostly, aside from occassional blinding rage...ha,ha). In fact, this trike is mostly for my kid's enjoyment. Females, I can't speak about any past female troubles, because I am married. If I ever have trouble with her, I just take the kids out.

You should show me how the PM? thing works. I wasn't sure if my first post should be in the technical reference area, maybe it can be moved?
Or maybe I should come up with a new thread? Who knows?

 

[Sancho's Horse]

hillhater - I am pretty fond of the mind altering my kids have done to me (mostly, aside from occassional blinding rage...ha,ha). In fact, this trike is mostly for my kid's enjoyment. Females, I can't speak about any past female troubles, because I am married. If I ever have trouble with her, I just take the kids out.

You should show me how the PM? thing works. I wasn't sure if my first post should be in the technical reference area, maybe it can be moved?
Or maybe I should come up with a new thread? Who knows?

 

[Sancho's Horse]

hillhater - I am pretty fond of the mind altering my kids have done to me (mostly, aside from occassional blinding rage...ha,ha). In fact, this trike is mostly for my kid's enjoyment. Females, I can't speak about any past female troubles, because my wife is an itinerant nibsh**. Oh, hi honey! If I ever have trouble with her, I just take the kids out.

You should show me how the PM? thing works. I wasn't sure if my first post should be in the technical reference area, maybe it can be moved?
Or maybe I should come up with a new thread? Who knows?

 

[Sancho's Horse]

Ok, I didn't end up going to Wal Mart, otherwise, I would have been buying diapers. Not that I have a problem buying diapers. I have been the primary caretaker for my son, and will be for my daughter in another week when my wife's maternity leave is up. However, you begin a special kind of math when you have kids, and the answer was, No.

So, we went to Menards (a DIY store). I scrapped the grinding, and filing handlebar seatpost solution. Instead, I wanted something which wouldn't require so much tooling (albeit rudimentary).View attachment 1
This 10" 3/8" pipe is not going anywhere without loosening up the twist tightener, and really giving it a wiggle.
To this I added:

So, I bought a reducing coupler (1/2" to 3/8"), and a 1/2" nipple. Although I may have been able to tighten the seat's stem receiver down onto the nipple, I put a little sheet metal shim on the nipple with some JB weld. I JB welded everything instead of loctite. By switching couplers, and buying the nipple, I added $0.93 plus tax total. I also added an inch to the lowest potential seat position, continuing to inch my center of gravity upwards. However, tomorrow, if all goes right I will present what I see as a possible solution (ameliorization?) to this problem.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

I think I am going to stick with the pipe seat post idea, instead of the bar stock idea. The bar stock offers greater ease of adjustment, but with this coming from a pipe-fitter at Borg Warner, I think he would approve.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

The people who want this kind of bike want something which is stable. They also often want something for carrying cargo. The stability is easy to achieve as long as you are setting still. However, once you are moving and especially turning or on a crown stability disappears.

Is it possible that carrying cargo in a trailer can make this bike more stable?

I think the answer is...possibly.

Trailers have their own special handling problems, which I will get into later. However, if you design the trailer attachment correctly, I think you can have a pretty substantial effect on the bikes overall center of gravity. The way I am trying to do this is by creating a Non-Ideal Lever.

I came onto this idea digging in the trash. My son and I go on lots of walks. Being in a college town, I view our walks as excellent dumpster diving opportunities. However, there was one particular day in which I hit the motherload. There, apparently, was an owner of a strip of offices which got in some financial trouble. All of the businesses in the offices moved out, including an optometrist. This optometrist, I guess, decided the cost of moving his old, incredibly massive, chairs and equipment wasn't worth it, so everything was in a long dumpster- even the optical instruments (sans copper cords). That was all the cleaners took! The copper cords... I, on the other hand, camped at this dumpster. My son and I stayed at this dumpster until my wife got off from the afternoon shift. I got my tools and stayed there all night, bringing home the loot. By morning there were other scrappers circling, but no one came in until after I had emerged, pounded on my chest and left triumphant.

What am I going to do with all of this awesome stuff? Well, I eventually came up with this:

This was part of a swing arm for some optical instruments which I will be using as a pivot point in my non-ideal lever. Here is a drawing I did of the lever:

Having springs at the fulcrum to absorb the energy is what makes it a non-ideal lever. I made it non-ideal because I don't want energy from the weight of the trailer affecting the front wheel's ability to transmit its energy into the ground during turning. My thought is that under normal circumstances, the springs will do well to absorb trailer weight preventing loss of handling, but in a situation where a tipping situation may occur, the long lever arm will help to prevent that tipping.

Sorry to leave this post without enough good pictures or discussion, but I need to pick up my son. I will be back at it later tonight, and explain things a little better.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

Would any trailer arrangement result in less likelihood of tipping and greater likelihood of jack knife? Probably. Am I overthinking this? I don't know, but I am only going to build it once, so I would rather use what little I do understand to try to build the safest arrangement I can muster. Talking with the head honcho from Maynards auction company (who did Borg-Warner) about some I-beam issues I was considering for my dream shop, he told me his father had said to him, "when in doubt go hell for stout." I have always felt the same way.

Placing as much of the weight within the tipping point COG is best practice in any case. On this bike:
The wheel base or track is 27 1/2" that only gives a height on our triangle which is 13 3/4". No wonder these bikes are so unstable. That is essentially the height of the axle
I have plenty of axle stock, so if I made it a little wider, it would expand my triangle, increase stability, and still not be any wider than the trailer I have.

So, 36 inches still looks like it would look nice.

However, it would raise the top of the tipping point COG triangle to something more doable.

I also put a candidate spring which is 750 pounds per inch (maybe a little too rigid?) to make my lever non-ideal. I haven't welded anything up. Until I pin down some motor ideas I keep everything adjustable.

Did I make any advancements with this arrangement? I don't think I will know until my first ride.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

I finally got back involved with the actual trike. I have spent the last couple months on all of the trailers I am hoping to pull with this beast. I have a trailer which will be used for charitable purposes, one which is a welding/cutting rig (I haven't posted on this but I think it is turning out awesome) which I will use at my shop, and if I like the way this thing pulls and handles, then I am going to put some time into building a pedicab trailer. I know purpose built is preferable for a pedicab, but if I am going to do the things I want to do, I will need to work on these things full time. The money from a pedicab is not huge, but enough to keep my head above water until I deliver on some of the bigger stuff. So...I am trying to overbuild.

View attachment 1

What you see here is 46" or 1.17m of axle length. Pretty darn wide. A serious SUV of ebikes. Nothing is glued down yet (I will be using elmer's), and there is a full twelve inches which can be cut out from the final width, but...I am considering final battery placement, and I figured having these two six inch spaces on either side would be room for some serious battery, and well placed (other than aero). At the speeds I will be using this trike, I am really not that concerned about aero. I was able to remove a support strut across the back, and will likely remove more, because I will put in some alternative mounting when my motor/nuvinci/jackshaft drivetrain is ready to put in place. Both of the bottom tubes had some significant bending in them, and I wanted to widen the base, so I placed 1/2" black pipe in each (good tight fit and straightened the tubes). At 36" these pipes really make the thing look pretty meaty.

I shrunk the hitch design, and knocked out a lot of the non-essential metal. I was able to get better placement by cutting out some of the soon to be redundent support brackets. The hitch will have metal placed on either side to prevent lateral movement, and some HDPE on the metal to allow it to slide vertically. This metal will go below the axle and provide an attachement point for the spring (which you can barely make out in the picture...sorry), and likely a spot to place batteries below the axle. The ball joint I used for the hitch is hidden by a spring I attached to its top. I have been worried that I might be creating a wheelie monster, especially with the amount of torque, and the hitch design. So... I have been working out solutions to this problem. I guess we will see once it is in action. It may take until spring though. I have been building a rig to test an oil cooling approach I have been working out. Ok, back to the grind.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

I saw a series of photographs by Alain Delorme in The Daily Beast, depicting trikes in Shanghai loaded down with goods to incredible heights. Here is the website: http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswe...5/china-alain-delorme-totem-photos.html#slide

Here is a sample pic:


Here are some words from the artist: It’s Sisyphus on a bike. It’s the weight of capitalist struggle on the back of the worker. It’s a rolling example of human ingenuity.

All of the pictures are worth looking at. Imagine making that trek. Having your back up against the wall is incredible. The best work of my life has always been when I had no other options. Biting off more than you can chew is the fastest way to get there. Nom-Nom.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

I know weight is going to be one of my greatest obstacles. This trike is rated for 550 lbs according to Worksman. If that includes the bike, not sure, likely not, pretty stout. However, even so, I am thinking more about how to shave weight. I have a scale used for measuring luggage weights:

It measures in pounds or kilograms to the tenth, and has been compared to known correct, callibrated professional instruments by some geek reviewers and is one of the most accurate of these devices of its type according to them. Seemed like they had the nerdcred, so...this is what I got. It is good up to 50 lbs (~22.8 kg). Above that, I have a deer scale, which is a really poor performer on the low end of the scale, but when I calibrate it with my own weight/scale, it is passable on the upper end.

I am going to do a little weight shaving exercise, and see if my time is worth the extra effort.

Here are some initial weights:
Hitch, Hitch Pin, lever, and spring:................9.6 lbs..............4.3kg..Removal Target 0.5lbs
Axle, Pillow Bearings, Sprocket mount:.........14.41lbs..............6.5kg......................0.5lbs
Bike, Pipe Extensions, Bearing plate, Seat.......40.9lbs.............18.6kg......................3-7lbs
Nuvinci, w/ threaded adapter 8.2lbs 3.7kg dust
Total 73.1lbs 33.1kg 4-8lbs +/- some dust

My guess is that it will not be that relevant, but it could be so...a pound shaved is a pound earned...doing it tomorrow.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

I did a lot of drilling. Very therapeutic. A bit like grinding without the noise and odor. I shaved 1 lb (or 0.45kg for advanced types) off of the pipe inserts just with this drilling. I really feel like there was no real sacrifice in system strength (if it breaks down it will be someplace else), and I also got a pretty good feel for the weight of the metal. This was a useful exercise for me. I took some good weight off of the bearing plate 1.7 lbs (0.77kg), and I took another pound off a couple of support brackets. So, 3.7 lbs (1.7 kg) without too much trouble. I am guessing that there is one more pound to be gained without much trouble.

I brazed everything together, and can see the light at the end of the tunnel on the drivetrain. So...things are getting pretty exciting. I will post some more pics when it seems like there is enough progress to be of interest.

I have three different trailers in the works, and this trike is designed around moving these trailers. I was able to get the platform I will be using for my welding/cutting/grinding cart stripped down (although my brother grabbed mismatched wheels from the shop).

I like to set up deadlines for myself, because I am able to convince myself that they matter (even if there are no actual consequences). I get so much more done.

So...I am hoping to have the layout, and all the welding done on this cart by spring. I am setting up another shop on my land using some intermodal shipping containers which will be far more useful because it will have a heavier duty crane and a clean room. I will need the cart for that.

I have one side project necessary for developing the shipping container shop (and more importantly some long term objectives), and that is the modification of a DC screw drive garage door opener to direct the movement of a plasma cutter to make long straight cuts on the corrugated metal of the containers. I have some powerful magnets, to "place" the opener, but I need a better grip over how far they should be removed from the cutting line temp wise. I will someday maybe put together some arduino controls, but not until other things are done.

I have several other micro-projects which I have been working on, such as a DC driven welding station, and a high amp metal heating device from some of the microwave oven transformers I have been stripping (during some downtimes), but I will likely put some neighborhood kids on those (closely supervised) details. But getting a start on this welding cart is exactly the way I like to work. Place the parts I know definitively, step back (or abandon altogether for a time), and let it build itself in my head.

I cannot wait to show some of the work I have been doing. Fun stuff.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

Why do all this stuff? Just because? This guy created a water calligraphy tricycle that he takes around Beijing. Why did he do it? Just because is his answer.
[youtube]qbRTnVnbS94[/youtube]
Good as any other to me. There are lots of little reasons, but they are so easy to lose. Just because works. I hate to see all the little things get lost. Why? Just because.