False claims

[dumbass]

I currently have several e-bikes hanging from my garage ceiling but none with full suspension or dual wheel motors. Long and short of it, I’ve been looking at lower cost fat bikes with full suspension and dual wheel drive. Something I’ve noticed was the claimed wattage output of these bikes far exceeded the battery capacity supplied with the bike. The absolute best setup I found was a claimed dual drive with a peek output of 5000 watts. Yet the battery was a 52v x 54ah with a 50a BMS. By my math 50a x 52v = 2600w max output from the battery. Now I am an admitted dumbass but unless there’s magic in this new math I keep hearing about 2600w is just about half of what those 5000w motors can pull. And most setups don’t come near this close.

My question is, am I wrong in how I’m looking at this? If not then what’s the difference if you pay extra for the 5000w or go with the less costly 3000w model? To me it’s smarter to buy based on “best match” of motor vs. battery. Of course batteries can be upgraded but that’s another cost. Plus bigger batteries are just that BIGGER and may not fit.

Your thoughts and wisdom always appreciated.

 

[amberwolf]

Something I’ve noticed was the claimed wattage output of these bikes far exceeded the battery capacity supplied with the bike. The absolute best setup I found was a claimed dual drive with a peek output of 5000 watts. Yet the battery was a 52v x 54ah with a 50a BMS. By my math 50a x 52v = 2600w max output from the battery. Now I am an admitted dumbass but unless there’s magic in this new math I keep hearing about 2600w is just about half of what those 5000w motors can pull.

No, you're right--they're just making shit up cuz it sounds good.

Depending on the BMS it might not limit current by shutting down for a certain amount of time above that current limit, so technically you might actually be able to get a short peak of some much higher current, before the BMS shuts down or explodes.

Same thing for the controller limits.

I expect that most of these things' motors couldn't sustain even the lower powers the battery and controller could actually output. The few I've actually taken a look at in people's threads about them appear to have smaller geared hubmotors that are probably realistically capable of 500w continuously in a loaded situation, for heat shedding, though they might peak for short intermittent periods at something higher. I doubt they could climb a hill at the sustained power the bike is rated for without melting the wheels off. :lol:

My question is, am I wrong in how I’m looking at this? If not then what’s the difference if you pay extra for the 5000w or go with the less costly 3000w model? To me it’s smarter to buy based on “best match” of motor vs. battery. Of course batteries can be upgraded but that’s another cost. Plus bigger batteries are just that BIGGER and may not fit.

The first thing I'd look at is the quality of the battery supplied, since that's what you'd really be buying, paying for; it's the most expensive part to replace if it doesn't do the job. A crappy battery makes a great bike crappy. A good battery doesn't make a crappy bike noncrappy, but at least it won't keep you from maxing out whatever crappiness it has to give. It also is likely to last longer, so after the bike itself falls apart you've still got a battery to use on the next one.

The bike itself is likely to be no better than any BSO you can find on the clearance rack at wallyworld, if that. Could even be worse depending on the compromises they chose while adding the e-stuff to it. So pick the one that best fits you and the usage you are going to put it to. Then replace all the parts that don't do what you want (wiht new ones or used ones off your old bikes just hanging around).

The motors; well, I haven't seen any of the cheap ones that are substantially different than any others for motor choice, regardless of the "brand name" they painted on the motor.

Controllers, pick the one that has the features you want. They're all likely the cheapest controller / display sets they could get that let them get custom firmware to show their name on it, or logo, or have whatever feature set they wanted out of it, or let them sell several models with increasing prices to activate a specific feature that's already in all of them.

 

[neptronix]

The ebike market is where the computer market was 20 years ago:
- low power stuff is decently priced
- high power stuff is overpriced and not produced in quantity

A lot of high power prebuilt bikes lie about specs so they can get down to a decent price point. Either that, or they have higher priced components and the price is higher.

Either way you could build your own for the same price or less still

 

[amberwolf]

Either way you could build your own for the same price or less still

as long as you're not trying to also build the battery yourself.

 

[dumbass]

The ebike market is where the computer market was 20 years ago:
- low power stuff is decently priced
- high power stuff is overpriced and not produced in quantity

A lot of high power prebuilt bikes lie about specs so they can get down to a decent price point. Either that, -or they have higher priced components and the price is higher.

Either way you could build your own for the same price or less still

No, you're right--they're just making shit up cuz it sounds good.

Depending on the BMS it might not limit current by shutting down for a certain amount of time above that current limit, so technically you might actually be able to get a short peak of some much higher current, before the BMS shuts down or explodes.

Same thing for the controller limits.

I expect that most of these things' motors couldn't sustain even the lower powers the battery and controller could actually output. The few I've actually taken a look at in people's threads about them appear to have smaller geared hubmotors that are probably realistically capable of 500w continuously in a loaded situation, for heat shedding, though they might peak for short intermittent periods at something higher. I doubt they could climb a hill at the sustained power the bike is rated for without melting the wheels off. :lol:




The first thing I'd look at is the quality of the battery supplied, since that's what you'd really be buying, paying for; it's the most expensive part to replace if it doesn't do the job. A crappy battery makes a great bike crappy. A good battery doesn't make a crappy bike noncrappy, but at least it won't keep you from maxing out whatever crappiness it has to give. It also is likely to last longer, so after the bike itself falls apart you've still got a battery to use on the next one.

The bike itself is likely to be no better than any BSO you can find on the clearance rack at wallyworld, if that. Could even be worse depending on the compromises they chose while adding the e-stuff to it. So pick the one that best fits you and the usage you are going to put it to. Then replace all the parts that don't do what you want (wiht new ones or used ones off your old bikes just hanging around).

The motors; well, I haven't seen any of the cheap ones that are substantially different than any others for motor choice, regardless of the "brand name" they painted on the motor.

Controllers, pick the one that has the features you want. They're all likely the cheapest controller / display sets they could get that let them get custom firmware to show their name on it, or logo, or have whatever feature set they wanted out of it, or let them sell several models with increasing prices to activate a specific feature that's already in all of them.

Nope, I totally disagree. Back in the olden days you could build better e-bikes for less. But now you can only build a better e-bike but I won’t be for less. Take a look at one of my finalist on my list (see links below). It well may be overstated (B.S.) in some or many areas, but even then that’s a lot of e-bike for the prices. I’ve built several e-bikes in my younger years thinking I could do better for less. For the most part the only thing that was better was the enjoyment and satisfaction of doing it myself. I’ll be 78 in a month and I just don’t feel like puttering around (do they still say that?) building another e-bike. Although, I do like some of the newer Bafang mid-drives. But I have 3 of them hanging on the garage ceiling now. I need something different!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0DPCP4Q1Y/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_5?smid=AK0OW28IT8XEA&psc=1

While I prefer the specs of that bike more I prefer the more finished professional look of this one (see or copy link below again). Let’s be honest…..most of the lower end bikes under say $2k and mostly just re-branded. Some manufacture in China stamps them out and wanna-be bike companies stamp a logo on them. Some will offer better a few better components. For example; the bike above I can show you at least 6 other bikes on Amazon that are the same base bike. But this seller actually did upgrade in several areas like adding 4 piston hydraulic braking and larger 52v battery annd I can comprehend their English. And the bike below used an aluminum frame to keep the weight along with a slightly larger battery then many.

Bottom line I looked for a full suspension frame to use as a base for a new build. Adding on a few new Bafang hubs or big new mid-drive and a big 52v or 60v pack. And let’s not forget adding good hydraulic breaking for this beast. Sure it would be a much better build in the end but cheaper? No way! At 78 I want to ride not build anymore. But you young guys go for it.

HAPPY TRAILs !

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DBVDHJJ8/?coliid=I2DMAZ6KQ8MDEY&colid=3F7OBU7ST7AAT&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

 

[lnanek]

Pretty sure I've seen dual battery offerings on dual motor bikes from several other brands, like Ariel Rider Grizzly and Wallkee:

Grizzly - 52V Dual Motor Ebike

Explore the Ariel Rider Grizzly, a dual-motor ebike with all-wheel drive—an ideal electric bike for adventure seekers.

arielrider.com

Wallke H9 AWD | 3200W Folding Ebike 60/82Ah Battery

Ride longer with Wallke H9 AWD – a 3200W folding ebike with 82Ah battery for epic range and power. Order your all-terrain e-bike now!"

wallkeebike.com

I doubt any of them can sustain 5000w, though. Maybe just hit that peak occasionally. Any bike sold to consumers generally struggles reaching the legally mandated 28mph, or 20mph now in some US states. Doing that doesn't take 5000w - but designing the system to do anything more is just throwing away money from the seller's point of view.

A couple sellers have an explicit off-road mode, or a third party app that can remove restrictions, but this is less and less given the recent laws and some block it for any bikes sold after last year. Most of the time if you want that much power, you are stuck building your own or doing a controller and display replacement at the minimum.

Markup for batteries from these relabeling bike brands is especially bad. It's not rare to see them sell a battery for $700 which I can get for $300, both with genuine brand name cells like Samsung.

As a fast road commuter, the winding of the motors is typically not ideal for me either, so I often have to waste battery amps on field weakening as well if I reuse their motor.

So at least for me, every electric component is non-ideal anyway, so might as well build my own. I did get a cheap Ariel Rider X-class fork and frame with torn out drop outs off the used forum, and slapped torque arms and dual motors on it. So I suppose I do use an ebike frame.

 

[dumbass]

Pretty sure I've seen dual battery offerings on dual motor bikes from several other brands, like Ariel Rider Grizzly and Wallkee:

Grizzly - 52V Dual Motor Ebike

Explore the Ariel Rider Grizzly, a dual-motor ebike with all-wheel drive—an ideal electric bike for adventure seekers.

arielrider.com

Wallke H9 AWD | 3200W Folding Ebike 60/82Ah Battery

Ride longer with Wallke H9 AWD – a 3200W folding ebike with 82Ah battery for epic range and power. Order your all-terrain e-bike now!"

wallkeebike.com

I doubt any of them can sustain 5000w, though. Maybe just hit that peak occasionally. Any bike sold to consumers generally struggles reaching the legally mandated 28mph, or 20mph now in some US states. Doing that doesn't take 5000w - but designing the system to do anything more is just throwing away money from the seller's point of view.

A couple sellers have an explicit off-road mode, or a third party app that can remove restrictions, but this is less and less given the recent laws and some block it for any bikes sold after last year. Most of the time if you want that much power, you are stuck building your own or doing a controller and display replacement at the minimum.

Markup for batteries from these relabeling bike brands is especially bad. It's not rare to see them sell a battery for $700 which I can get for $300, both with genuine brand name cells like Samsung.

As a fast road commuter, the winding of the motors is typically not ideal for me either, so I often have to waste battery amps on field weakening as well if I reuse their motor.

So at least for me, every electric component is non-ideal anyway, so might as well build my own. I did get a cheap Ariel Rider X-class fork and frame with torn out drop outs off the used forum, and slapped torque arms and dual motors on it. So I suppose I do use an ebike frame.

I have no question the claimed 5000w is BS hence what I said originally. Even if the motors could do 5000w the battery very likely can’t. I think I saw somewhere the packs were rated 40a or 50a max sustained output. Now if they had a second battery mounted like one seller has I might agree. But it’s more than I want to spend these days. And of course I agree on your point the legal max speed. But hay, it’s fun to kick it in the ass now and then when no one is looking.

At this point of my life I need a bigger more upright bike. If I were to pop for one of my examples I would likely change the handlebars to more of a pulled back style so I’m sitting more upright (bad back). And add a bar mounting extender to get more height.

One thing I question is the suspension difference between my 2 bike examples. To me the better of the 2 is the first one. And opinions are welcome.

 

[marvin78]

One thing I question is the suspension difference between my 2 bike examples. To me the better of the 2 is the first one. And opinions are welcome.

edit: wrong two bikes.

Between the HiKnight and the Trafly, the former looks to have the 'better' linkage design. But without dimensions, nothing can be said about upgradability.

Both have cheap forks which are probably going to be trash in performance and reliability.

If you want my opinion -> I I could, I would rather spend 500 on one of those new full sus Wallmarkt bikes which will give you an actually reliable foundation and one which uses industry standards for upgradability, and throw something like a cyc photon on it?

Or, look around for an affordable second hand mtb frame which would fit a cheaper option like tsdz2b / tsdz28 which wouldn't fit this frame.

 

[dumbass]

Do you need a folding frame/

The non folding frame will always be better.

No thanks. For me there’s no value in a folder. I have access to trails without car carrying the my bikes. That said however, I do occasionally wander to trails in a distant galaxy. For this I have a Door County auto lift hitch rack.

Door County 2 Bike Motorized Hitch Rack, Electric Lift, Easy Tilt & El

Let Us Do the Lifting If you’re searching for the ultimate bike rack for eBikes, lookno further than the Saris Door County. Powered by your vehicle’s 7-pinconnection, the Door County is a full-service electric bike rack for electricbikes. Simply turn the key and press a button, and the Door...

saris.com

 

[marvin78]

Sorry my bad I was comparing the two frames linked in the post above, not the one's you listed before. I edited my original reply.

 

[2old]

I wouldn't consider anything that doesn't have name brand suspension, at least SunTour, RST or DNM and even then it's very low end. (Just for information, Walmart will be featuring an Ozark Trail FS bike with SunTour front, DNM rear, Shimano CUES, Kenda tires and other decent parts for < $500 soon so those companies should be able to produce a decent bike for $1000 - $1200). Pius, if you need a more upright position, just procure the appropriate riser bars (IMO).

 

[marvin78]

Yeah, I actually made a thread about that bike lol, it does look very appealing spec wise. Shame the frame wouldn't fix a cheap kit like Tsdz2b, it would be such a great match to build something far more capable then it's price would suggest.

 

[hillslayer@]

Nope, I totally disagree. Back in the olden days you could build better e-bikes for less. But now you can only build a better e-bike but I won’t be for less. Take a look at one of my finalist on my list (see links below). It well may be overstated (B.S.) in some or many areas, but even then that’s a lot of e-bike for the prices. I’ve built several e-bikes in my younger years thinking I could do better for less. For the most part the only thing that was better was the enjoyment and satisfaction of doing it myself. I’ll be 78 in a month and I just don’t feel like puttering around (do they still say that?) building another e-bike. Although, I do like some of the newer Bafang mid-drives. But I have 3 of them hanging on the garage ceiling now. I need something different!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0DPCP4Q1Y/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_5?smid=AK0OW28IT8XEA&psc=1

While I prefer the specs of that bike more I prefer the more finished professional look of this one (see or copy link below again). Let’s be honest…..most of the lower end bikes under say $2k and mostly just re-branded. Some manufacture in China stamps them out and wanna-be bike companies stamp a logo on them. Some will offer better a few better components. For example; the bike above I can show you at least 6 other bikes on Amazon that are the same base bike. But this seller actually did upgrade in several areas like adding 4 piston hydraulic braking and larger 52v battery annd I can comprehend their English. And the bike below used an aluminum frame to keep the weight along with a slightly larger battery then many.

Bottom line I looked for a full suspension frame to use as a base for a new build. Adding on a few new Bafang hubs or big new mid-drive and a big 52v or 60v pack. And let’s not forget adding good hydraulic breaking for this beast. Sure it would be a much better build in the end but cheaper? No way! At 78 I want to ride not build anymore. But you young guys go for it.

HAPPY TRAILs !

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DBVDHJJ8/?coliid=I2DMAZ6KQ8MDEY&colid=3F7OBU7ST7AAT&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

If you already have a mid -drive just add a 1500 watt hub and another battery that's what I did my bike fly's uphill.

 

[dumbass]

If you already have a mid -drive just add a 1500 watt hub and another battery that's what I did my bike

Ok, I have thought about adding a drive to one of my existing bikes. The problem is all my frames are hard tails. In fact my fatty is a solid forked hard tail and it kills my wrists and ass. But it has a 750 Bafang MD. I can easily change that out but I can’t do anything about the hard tails. A second frame is an old e-zip that I converted to another 750 Bafang MD. My 3rd frame and favorite is a 3 year old 500w hub driver. Very nice large frame with BIG wheels but not a true fatty. But it too is still a hard tails. It’s one of those with the pack standing upright behind the down tube (seat post). Add a Bafang MD and a flat pack on the rear rack and it’s perfect. My last bike is my wife’s. I’ve also got a 750w Bafang MD in my crap bin awaiting wiring repairs.

So how do you control both a hub and mid-drive? 1 throttle or 2? 1 battery or separate per motor? Inquisitive minds want to know!

As I said originally I’m 78 and have little energy left for building anymore. I just want to ride now. But I do like being educated on all aspect of ebiking. So please feed my old brain .

 

[neptronix]

How about an expensive suspension seat post to make that hardtail a lot nicer?
I run a cheapo suntour NCX and it feels like half a rear suspension.

Wrist pain can be improved by moving the handlebars up so that you are not resting as much of your body on them. Or getting a recumbent

 

[dumbass]

Thanks for the input and I agree with you 100%. Improvements can be made and it maybe the way to go. The question is which is better new or rehab? Plus the work to do it.

On all my bikes I have raised the handlebars with mounting extensions and installed the old type bars that curve back at the rider. On my newest bike I installed an air suspension drop post. Yeah, I like to ride height but now have a problem getting on/off with the seat up high. With the drop post it works great and the air suspension does help. So I guess if I installed a good suspension fork and air suspension drop post on my fatty it would be a nice upgrade.

So I need to replace my old pack $400, new fork on the cheap $100, air suspension drop post $200. That’s $700 or more than half the cost of a new bike. Which will do the same and likely better. But I would likely dump at least $300 more into a new bike to make additional improvements like raised handlebars and seat posts.

 

[hillslayer@]

Ok, I have thought about adding a drive to one of my existing bikes. The problem is all my frames are hard tails. In fact my fatty is a solid forked hard tail and it kills my wrists and ass. But it has a 750 Bafang MD. I can easily change that out but I can’t do anything about the hard tails. A second frame is an old e-zip that I converted to another 750 Bafang MD. My 3rd frame and favorite is a 3 year old 500w hub driver. Very nice large frame with BIG wheels but not a true fatty. But it too is still a hard tails. It’s one of those with the pack standing upright behind the down tube (seat post). Add a Bafang MD and a flat pack on the rear rack and it’s perfect. My last bike is my wife’s. I’ve also got a 750w Bafang MD in my crap bin awaiting wiring repairs.

So how do you control both a hub and mid-drive? 1 throttle or 2? 1 battery or separate per motor? Inquisitive minds want to know!

As I said originally I’m 78 and have little energy left for building anymore. I just want to ride now. But I do like being educated on all aspect of ebiking. So please feed my old brain .

It's pretty easy throttle for the hub pedal assist is the mid -drive, only really need the mid -drive for hills. Dual batteries is the way to go . You could make the fatty into a cruiser with a suspension seatpost and a comfortable seat. I have one built this way it's super comfortable having all your weight on the seat takes all pressure off your hands

 

[dumbass]

In the end I may just add a hub, suspension fork and seat post to fatty and call it a day.

 

[dumbass]

In the end I may just add a hub, suspension fork and seat post to fatty and call it a day. I may call upon you for knowledge..

 

[99t4]

My first three ebikes were hardtails. Best upgrade I ever did by far was to convert a Full Suspension Downhill bike. The others are just gathering dust now. A good quality FS DH bike can be dialed in to a soft comfortable ride. (I don't like to overuse the word "plush.")

 

[Chalo]

A good quality FS DH bike can be dialed in to a soft comfortable ride.

In my observation, they're more likely to offer a "loose pivots, four directions at once" ride. But if you luck into one that has available replacement parts, and you have the will to replace everything, then you win. If not, you'd better develop a taste for fishing your chain back on because the chainring won't stay parallel to the cassette.

 

[bananu7]

Good thing that DH bikes come with proper chain guides then!

While often not ideal, most of the bike bushings can be re-made and replaced. Would it better if manufacturers put proper bearings in the pivots? Sure, but that doesn't mean we should forego the immense improvements to the ride quality brought by rear suspension. After converting two of our bikes last year, perhaps the biggest regret I had was not throwing away old hardtail frames and building them on FS from the get-go. I like to think I can rectify that by making a couple frames myself one day.

 

[dumbass]

I agree with Chalo that it’s unlikely a $1,200 or $1,500 bike is going to have great or state of the art quality parts especially in the suspension pivots. But on the other hand as I’ve said a few times “I am 78 years old next month”. But I still enjoy getting out a few times each week for 10 or 15 miles. However, those miles are mostly on paved or crushed stone trails. Even my “off road trail riding” is on a heavenly ridden minimally jarring path. My point is….I’m looking for a not so expensive dual motor, full suspension fat bike that will soften my ride. And if or/when I want to get the F out of Dodge for any reason my bike has the ability to rise to the occasion. I worked in engineering for 40 years and have a small machine shop in my basement. So if a busing does fail and it’s not readily available I can make it or mod it to a bearing setup. So I also agree with bananu7. Any reasonable full shock is better than a hard tail any day. Yes fat tires help just as good suspension seats and good seat posts. I’m incline to combine them all for best results.

So back to my original question. Does it really matter how the suspension is connected as long as it has a good pivot point?

 

[hillslayer@]

I would say if you only plan on doing low mileage one of those super cheap dual motor full suspension bikes will probably hold up. I almost bought one until I made my current bike go as fast as I needed it to.

 

[bananu7]

My point is….I’m looking for a not so expensive dual motor, full suspension fat bike that will soften my ride.

Honestly, unless you're dead set on the whole 2x2 fat bike concept, and instead wanted to focus on ride quality and usable power, I'd consider a used "stealth bomber" or "monster bike" with a large single hub motor. The weakest, cheapest one you can find should put you around the 5kW target, with hopefully a reasonable battery for that power and a crude but functioning frame. And while maybe you won't fit 4.0 tyres in it, most should accept much cheaper 3.0, which combined with the better suspension should give you a comfy ride. My neighbor has a setup almost like that and it's surprisingly smooth and plush on the bumps and roots, even despite the heavy hub.

I've never actually ridden such a fat bike before, but I imagine it would feel more like a tank, with some extra grip from the front wheel and straight line pull. I imagine a heavy front wheel would sacrifice turn ability, though, and 5kW is well below what a decent rear drive with a motorcycle tyre can put on the ground without spinning.