First Conversion - Giant Sedona - Your input greatly apprec.

[OCMike]

Hello,

First post and not lurking for very long (a few days) - I'm a noob. But I have been seriously thinking about this project and I have done some research. I tried to search ES for the information I seek but did not find it. So, this post is the result ...

I've included a picture of the bike I want to put an e in front of.

My plan has evolved. First I wanted to just get a front wheel with a motorized hub, a good battery, hook it all up, and smile as I cruise. Life should be that easy, right? I found that suspension forks (not steel) can fail - ugh - not good! My plan changes to finding a townie on CraigsList. Townie's have high tensile steel forks. I like the riding position of a townie too. Seems like a good plan - and probably still is. I was thinking 500-700 watt motor and a 36v 15ah LifePO or LiO battery.

These are what I had in mind:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007AL64NE/ref=s9_simh_gw_p200_d1_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=1PMBSTX2NM129EASMW31&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846

AND

http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-9/36v-15ah-lifepo4-lithium/Detail

But the battery says for up to 600watt and the motor is 700watt - is that OK?

And anyways now I'm thinking all this:

Don't spend too much money on first project - get something smallish to get my feet wet. I've ridden the Currie and the Pedego and they seem descent enough in terms of power and speed for my purposes - but more power and more speed is likely something I'll want - I can take my time and hunt CraigsList for the right bike and stuff while I enjoy my first project.

Why not get a 250watt front wheel and torque arms. I've read front wheel conversions are done on non-steel suspension forks all the time without torque arms at the 250watt level. If I add the torque arms, I should be good to go, right?

Then I read this thread, http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29696, in this thread Dogman talks about the difficulties encountered when trying to install a motor wheel on non-steel forks. He basically says if you're a noob DON'T TRY IT! But that was a couple years ago - may be things have changed a bit?

I also read this article:

http://www.electricbike.com/250-watt-hub-motor/

and this one too

http://www.electricbike.com/mini-hub-motors/

The front picture on the last URL is just about exactly what I want (I think?)

So now I've priced this stuff out:

http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits/424-bafang-250watts-front-driving-qswxk-motor-e-bike-kit.html

and this

http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/522-bottle-ebike-battery.html

But shipping is a whopping $175 for these two items - shipping is more than the cost of either item! WTF?!?

And the width of the front wheel motor hub isn't spec'd - I don't want to put any additional stress on my non-steel forks. And I'd rather the forks didn't bind as well. I understand the forks will likely bind no matter what when under e-power. But I'd rather they not be permanently locked up.

I'm also thinking may be a 500watt motor would be OK on my bike - the Sedona. What do you guys think?

And I've noticed there are domestic products that will likely do the trick - If I go with a 500watt motor, the bottle-ebike-battery idea will be scrapped I think?

So I think it really boils down to this:

250watt motor or 500-700 watt motor?
bottle-ebike-battery or LifePO 36v 15ah battery?

I could just get two bottle-ebike-batteries - I think that would give me two chargers too - that's a plus I think.

Domestic or foreign?

You guys have expertise and experience with product, prices, and feasibility. Can you guys suggest products (at best prices hopefully) and allude to the feasibility of what I want to do?

Sorry for the extremely long first post - BTW - I'm in Orange County California.

And THANKS!

 

[dogman dan]

The more mechanically inclined noobs can pull off a front hub install on an alloy fork. But not those with no clue how to tell if a washer fits or not.

Two c washers and two torque arms from Grin.

BUT. That bike is just about perfect for a rear motor, with 700w controller. That would be a 20 amps controller, which will run fine on a 36v 15 ah pingbattery.

The battery should fit in that front frame triangle ok, but check that with a cardboard mock up first.

You should be able to do this, to have at least one torque arm.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=50084

It should turn out quite well.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Welcome!

Here's a google of BMS-Battery on endless-sphere:

http://www.google.com/#output=searc...6d936745ba9020a0&biw=1152&bih=642&safe=active

 

[Drunkskunk]

That Giant would be a good candidate for a rear motor. The motor you linked to is basicly a 500 watt motor, the vendor is listing it's peak wattage, and that is limited to 700watts. 36V battery with a 20 amp controller gives 720 watts. (Volts X Amps = Watts)
Most reputable vendors list motors by their nominal wattage. Thats basicly a 500 watt motor, and looks to be a GM901, which falls in the same group as the 9C and MXUS motors.

While that motor is fine, buying from random eBay/Amazon vendors can be problematic. One of the reviewers already mention losening spokes. thats typical of cheap grade wheel/spoke combos that come from many of these shady vendors.

I would highly recomend buying a motor much like that, but from a reputable vendor like http://www.Ebikes.ca, http://www.Ebikekits.com, http://www.ampedbikes.com, or http://www.EM3ev.com
You'll pay more, but you'll get a quality rim and spokes, and customer service that is first rate.

The battery is fine for that motor up to a 25 amp controller. If you are an adrenaline junky, you might consider a 48 volt battery. Nearly everyone who builds their own ebike eventualy decides they wanted 48 volts instead.

 

[wesnewell]

If you want front, here's the same kit for less with free shipping.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Front-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Conversion-Kit-24-36-48V-250W-500W-700W-800W-1000W-/290754569359
Like others mentioned though, a rear would be better. And I'd go for the 48V1000W kit.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Conversion-Kit-24V-36V-48V-250W-500W-700W-800W-1000W-/290754592384

For a battery, I'd use multiples of 2 of these depending on the range you want.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=16793
That'll give you a 44.4V pack perfect for the 30A controller that comes with the kit.
Of course you'll need a charger if you don't have one already. Cheapest would be any 6s charger. Best option imo would be this one to charge as 12s.
http://www.hobbypartz.com/75p-1220-charger.html?gclid=CNa3z9_N57ICFayPPAod10MAPw

 

[Samd]

If you stick with the townie, put a nice little 201 rpm 10s q100 torque kit in the front and feed it 500 watts. You'll get a nice minimal bike. Price the same kit thru greenbikekit, they are cheaper on post compared to bmsbattery.
Here's mine.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45570#p664811

The prokit901 motor you first showed isn't so pretty to look at, best stashed in the back wheel of a mtb. Different build though.

Do you want a Hilux or a miata? Different beasts. Your choice.

 

[OCMike]

Thanks a lot all!

I think I've decided on rear install. I'm looking at AmpedBikes - see here http://www.ampedbikes.com/kits.html

Should I go with
the BRUTE DD Rear 36v 500-750 watt for $365
OR
the Stealth Rear Gear Kit for $415?

How come they don't have specs? Is the Stealth also 500-750 watt?

I'm really not sure which I should get - I weigh 200 lbs. I'll be doing 99% of my riding on mostly level pavement - a few hills here and there but nothing major - this is Huntington Beach. From what I gather geared is stealthier and more efficient, which should equate to longer range. But DD is more quiet.

Amped sales a bottle type Li-ion 36v 12ah for $600 - WTF?!?

I'm also getting 2 Li-ion 48v 10ah batteries for $310 each.

Amped sight says you can use 36v or 48v on all their kits.

eZee kits are 400 watt and cost $725 - WTF?!? But they do come with a tire ...

There's a bike shop affiliated with Amped near my house ... I'm gonna stop there tomorrow.

Does anyone here have experience with Amped? Do you have geared or DD? Brute or Stealth?

Thanks again -- please add anything you think might help me wade through all this information and arrive at a good decision.

 

[wesnewell]

You should get what I suggested, but it's your money.

 

[dogman dan]

Batteries cost more on this side of the pond, when they come with a warranty. Sent from china, you have to send them back if there is a problem.

The EZ kit is a quality item, from the best Ebike dealer on the planet. Best, not cheapest.

Since you won't be needing disk brakes, there is no particular reason not to get a kit from Yes.com. They are VERY local to you. If you get the 1000w kit, it will have a very strong controller, and need a very strong battery as well. So the lesser wattage kit may suit you better.

Dealing with a local shop that sells the amped kits also has it's appeal. CS can matter. Ask if you get a few free wheel truings, a new hubmotor usually needs a few till it settles down after 200 miles or so.

If you needed disk brakes, then the kit from EM3 ev would be the best bang for the buck.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Should I go with
the BRUTE DD Rear 36v 500-750 watt for $365
OR
the Stealth Rear Gear Kit for $415?

What that realy comes down to is a choice of Direct Drive VS geard drive. But that Geared hub is smaller size, around a 350watt sized motor, and not going to be the equil of the Direct drive they sell. A better comparison would be a MAC motor sold by EM3ev.

Some of the advantages of a geared system are it's smaller size, lower weight, more efficent acceleration, and higher torque per watt.
Its disadvantages are it's noise, lower efficancy at cruising speed, and complexity.

A Direct drive is more efficent at cruising speed, nearly dead silent, can generaly take far more abuse, and has only 1 moving part. But it's bigger, heavier, and not very stealth to look at. I own both types of motors, and like both for different reasons, although most of my bikes have Direct drive, and I can say I prefer them for most applications.

 

[OCMike]

If you want front, here's the same kit for less with free shipping.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Front-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Conversion-Kit-24-36-48V-250W-500W-700W-800W-1000W-/290754569359
Like others mentioned though, a rear would be better. And I'd go for the 48V1000W kit.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Conversion-Kit-24V-36V-48V-250W-500W-700W-800W-1000W-/290754592384

For a battery, I'd use multiples of 2 of these depending on the range you want.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=16793
That'll give you a 44.4V pack perfect for the 30A controller that comes with the kit.
Of course you'll need a charger if you don't have one already. Cheapest would be any 6s charger. Best option imo would be this one to charge as 12s.
http://www.hobbypartz.com/75p-1220-charger.html?gclid=CNa3z9_N57ICFayPPAod10MAPw

Thanks for your input!

That battery is 22.2v 5ah - so two of them equate to either 44.4v 5ah or 22.2v 10ah. That doesn't seem adequate. Unless I'm confused about something?

I'm gonna go with what I'm comfortable with right now - it's a first ebike - I know I'll experience some buyers remorse no matter what I buy. May be later I'll experiment with a 1000watt motor. May be a second bike will be a townie. There's lots of options obviously - if I really get into it I'll be exploring options and experimenting. But what's most likely for me is I'll settle in to a certain set up and just enjoy my time riding around town.

Thanks!

 

[OCMike]

Getting ready to pull trigger with this:

Amped BRUTE DD Rear 500-750watt kit ($365)
2 48v 10ah Li-ion batteries ($620)

I'm thinking each battery should get me at least 15 miles on a full charge no peddling - correct? Any peddling I do will extend that range. I can bring the spare with me if I'm going for an extended ride.

Is there a difference between a controller and a BMS? What should come with the battery?

Please talk me out of it if you think I'm making a mistake! OR thumbs up if you agree with my choices.

Thanks!

 

[docnjoj]

Where are the batteries coming from? 48 is an odd voltage for LiPo. With that motor you will need fairly high C-rate batteries. 2 10ah paralleled would be good. Give you 48 volts 20 AH.
otherDoc

 

[wesnewell]

If you don't understand the difference between a controller and a bms, then you don't know enough about any of it to make a decision at this point. The battery pack needs to furnish the controller it's max amperage without damaging the battery. C rate determines how much a battery pack (without a bms) can put out. It's very simple. C rate times AH = max amperage output. Typically you want a battery pack that will provide at least double the max rate of the controller. Typical controllers draw 20-40 amps. A 10ah rc lipo pack with a 20C discharge rating would be 200A. A 10ah 1c lifepo4 battery pack will provide 10A. That's one reason why most people with higher powered systems use rc lipo. If you want to use lifepo4 batteries, make sure they will put out the amperage that you need or you will kill them fast. On a pack using a bms, the bms is what limits the output amperage. Also remember their lifespan is based on less than a 1C discharge rate on most life4po4 packs, so be advised you will likely not see much more lifespan with it than RC lipo if you exceed a 1C discharge rate by much.

 

[dogman dan]

Yep. The tiny versions of the gearmotors run fine on smaller 10 ah batteries, but with the larger direct drive motor you'd be advised to carry both 10 ah batteries on every ride. Paralell them, so you don't murder one of them.

Another approach, is to get one 15 ah battery, which is just enough to power those dd motor kits with 20 amps controllers.

Pingbattery.com is one very reputable dealer.

But if you are looking for a bargain, Sunthing is a good ebay dealer of similar batteries. I just heard he only sells the 20 ah now though.

Think very hard and long about the battery. Pick the motor, then pick the battery can handle that motor kit's amp rate. Think real hard about how you will carry that battery. The whole idea is to get something that fits in that bikes triangle. 48v 15 ah pingbattery might fit, 36v 15 ah for sure will. Just put a 20 pound battery on a rear rack, and it will handle poorly. But two smaller batteries could be carried low in panniers. Even so, the triangle is where you want that weight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Jason27]

If you want better quality I would go with an allcell 48v or 36v pack. They are also much lighter than other batteries out there. The 48v pack works great with 750watt.

 

[OCMike]

If you don't understand the difference between a controller and a bms, then you don't know enough about any of it to make a decision at this point. The battery pack needs to furnish the controller it's max amperage without damaging the battery. C rate determines how much a battery pack (without a bms) can put out. It's very simple. C rate times AH = max amperage output. Typically you want a battery pack that will provide at least double the max rate of the controller. Typical controllers draw 20-40 amps. A 10ah rc lipo pack with a 20C discharge rating would be 200A. A 10ah 1c lifepo4 battery pack will provide 10A. That's one reason why most people with higher powered systems use rc lipo. If you want to use lifepo4 batteries, make sure they will put out the amperage that you need or you will kill them fast. On a pack using a bms, the bms is what limits the output amperage. Also remember their lifespan is based on less than a 1C discharge rate on most life4po4 packs, so be advised you will likely not see much more lifespan with it than RC lipo if you exceed a 1C discharge rate by much.

Wow ... I'm sorry for being a noob. Are you saying I shouldn't do anything?

So the BMS is part of the battery pack and it protects the battery from over/under charging? The controller manages the battery output via the throttle. And the controller can have settings to govern usage ... say economode and/or turbomode. Am I getting it? The art is in matching the right Battery/BMS to the right Controller/Motor - the BMS and the battery can be thought of as part of the same package and the controller and the motor can be thought of as part of the same package. C rate is confusing ... I hope I got the rest of that stuff right to some degree?

But you said this:
_____________________
"Typically you want a battery pack that will provide at least double the max rate of the controller."
_____________________

Here's the stats on the batteries I'm planning to purchase:
_____________________
New Electric Bicycle ebike 48V 10AH Lithium (Li-ion) Battery with BMS and 48V/2A soft charger

Use it for ebike, scooter etrikes. Battery is 2C rated and can support 1000w motor. I bought these new from china and I tested them individually before selling them.

They are selling for $350 on ebay. ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330841839695
See the attached pics of 3 step test of each battery.
1. check each battery voltage
2. Check power supply voltage
3. Battery max power run on my 700 watt ebike.motor

Type: Li-Ion
Brand Name: AODA
Voltage: 48V
Size: 8*12*28CM (3.1" x 4.74" x 11.02")
Nominal Capacity: 10AH
Weight: 4KG (8.82 lbs)
Cycles >> 800
Model Number: 48V 10AH PVC
Includes 110v 2a charger

Easy to install replace your lead acid clunker.

Battery Model 48V 10AH
Nominal Capacity (AH) 10
Nominal Voltage (V) 48
Source Resistance (mΩ) 40
Cell Combination 4-parallels
13-series
Cell Quantity (parallel*series) 52
Discharge Cutoff Voltage (V) 41
Charge Cutoff Voltage (V) 54.6
Rated Discharge Current (A) 20
Instantaneous Maximum Discharge Current (A) 30
Maximum Continuous Discharge Current (A) 20
Maximum Continuous Charge Current (A) 5
Charge Mode CC-CV
Standard Charge Current (A) 2
Charge Time under Standard Charge Current 6 hours
Fast Charge Current (A) 5
Charge Time under Fast Charge Current 2.5 hours
Charge Temperature Range -20-55
Discharge Temperature Range -20-55
______________________

Here's spec info on an eZee kit:
______________________
400 watt internally geared eZee brushless hub motor laced in a double walled rim
A 160mm disc rotor
Schwalbe Marathon puncture resistant tire and inner tube
Sealed 25 amp motor controller
Your choice of a thumb, twist, or half twist throttle
An assortment of cable ties, spiral wrap, and a connector housing, for tidy wiring
_____________________

The batteries I'm buying are 2C 10ah so by my understanding of what you explained these batteries provide 20ah max output.

The eZee controller is 25 amp.

This appears to be a bad match given the criteria you outlined ... am I getting this right?

What is rc lipo?

Again, I apologize for being such a noob. But I don't want to fry expensive batteries -- that would totally SUCK! It sounds like the max output of the batteries I'm thinking of buying is 20A, therefore I need to get a controller rated at less than 20A ... preferably 10A.

Thanks for your help!

 

[OCMike]

Yep. The tiny versions of the gearmotors run fine on smaller 10 ah batteries, but with the larger direct drive motor you'd be advised to carry both 10 ah batteries on every ride. Paralell them, so you don't murder one of them.

Another approach, is to get one 15 ah battery, which is just enough to power those dd motor kits with 20 amps controllers.

Pingbattery.com is one very reputable dealer.

But if you are looking for a bargain, Sunthing is a good ebay dealer of similar batteries. I just heard he only sells the 20 ah now though.

Think very hard and long about the battery. Pick the motor, then pick the battery can handle that motor kit's amp rate. Think real hard about how you will carry that battery. The whole idea is to get something that fits in that bikes triangle. 48v 15 ah pingbattery might fit, 36v 15 ah for sure will. Just put a 20 pound battery on a rear rack, and it will handle poorly. But two smaller batteries could be carried low in panniers. Even so, the triangle is where you want that weight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My thought process was to think a single 48v 10ah battery would get me about 15 miles. The second battery would only be brought along if I was planning an extended ride. This idea that (battery C times battery ah) > (controller amp rating) is new to me and seems VERY important. Now I'm thinking I should get the geared model ... the only drawback is noise I think. They're more efficient, better torque, and some other stuff too I think.

I'm 200lbs. I live in primarily flat area - close to beach in CAL. The Amped Stealth Rear Geared model is 350-450watts. I think it will more like sip from the battery rather than guzzle like the 500-750watt DD model I was thinking about. But I need to check the controller amps and make sure it's less than 20 to make the batteries I'm thinking of purchasing viable.

Thanks! Motor first. Then battery. I know I'm going to make some F'n bonehead mistake and cost me a boatload of money . May be I should just buy a Currie TrailZ for $500?? Turnkey - I'd be on the beach now cruising around! heheheehe J/K ... this (building my own) seems like more fun ... and more satisfying when you get it all working to you liking.

 

[OCMike]

I called Amped today to order. They're backed up. No inventory until early June . Said something about being in production now. 14 days to ship. Sounds like it's coming from China. Are they just another middle man? Should I be looking into ebay? ebay seems like rolling the dice to me.

This whole thing is rolling the dice for me ... thanks to this board my confidence is better than just a crapshoot.

I don't know ... I've been thinking / researching this idea for over a month. I want to get the ball rolling ... I'm set up to buy the batteries on Saturday. But I need to rethink that given the recent posts here.

Ebay kits are sub $300.

eZee is over $700

Ampled is about $400.

What to do?

Here's some pictures of my rear drop outs just because I have them:

 

[mark5]

I called Amped today to order. They're backed up. No inventory until early June . Said something about being in production now. 14 days to ship. Sounds like it's coming from China. Are they just another middle man? Should I be looking into ebay? ebay seems like rolling the dice to me.

Just as well that Amped is too busy for you. wesnewell probably suggested Yescom to you. They sell on eBay but they're in City of Industry not that far away. You can go there and get a motor from them. So not that much of an eBay roll of the dice.

 

[wesnewell]

99% of your questions are answered in the wiki. Read all of it.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/Main_Page

 

[e-beach]

I called Amped today to order. They're backed up. No inventory until early June . Said something about being in production now. 14 days to ship. Sounds like it's coming from China. Are they just another middle man? Should I be looking into ebay? ebay seems like rolling the dice to me.

This whole thing is rolling the dice for me ... thanks to this board my confidence is better than just a crapshoot.

I don't know ... I've been thinking / researching this idea for over a month. I want to get the ball rolling ... I'm set up to buy the batteries on Saturday. But I need to rethink that given the recent posts here.

Ebay kits are sub $300.

eZee is over $700

Ampled is about $400.

What to do?

Here's some pictures of my rear drop outs just because I have them:

Yescomusa motors ship out of City Of Industry in east LA. Their kits work and are robust. I run a 36v 800w front hub motor but would recommend a rear hub motor for your first build. I have over 3000 miles on my Yescomusa motor at the moment with no problem from the motor. http://www.yescomusa.com/Electric_Bicycle_Engine/

I run Headway lifepo4 batteries. I mounted them in my triangle for optimum weight distribution and handling. They have been very dependable. I got my kit from Headway Headquarters in Washington state. They are a reputable company for the most part. What I don't like about them is there return policy.

I run on Bontrager H2 26" x 2.00 (Hard-Case Ultimate) tires that have been extremely reliable for city riding. Only 1 flat in about 1 year of riding thousands of miles around Los Angeles and the beach cities. They don't slide on the sandy bike path or when on wet roads. http://bontrager.com/model/07795

Building your first e-bike will take more time then you want it to, but you will love it when it is up and running!

 

[Chalo]

You should get what I suggested, but it's your money.

Suppose he doesn't want to burn his house down. Other batteries begin to make more sense than what you suggested. And with other batteries of modest price, a less power-hungry motor begins to make more sense.

You may be cool with batteries that are too unsafe for any commercial EV maker to use them, but not everybody is.

 

[dogman dan]

I don't recommend RC lipo batteries to noobs either, unless they are not noobs with RC stuff.

I am now running RC lipo exclusively, but would buy another pingbattery in a heartbeat if I had the cash. I'm very careful how I store and charge the lipo. It's far from guaranteed that you will burn your house down using lipo, but it can happen easy if you don't take sensible precautions.

The allcell battery is a very good choice, as is a 36v 15 ah ping. Both should fit in your frame triangle fine. Possibly a 48v 15ah ping will fit, but it might not. It would in many frames.

Here is the thing about battery specifications. When the battery is new, and it's a warm day, 10 ah of 2c cells is sufficient to run a 20 amps controller. But it's not always a warm day, the battery will not be new for long, and as you discharge the battery, it's internal resistance increases as it nears the end of the discharge. (which lowers the c rate at that moment)

So the specs that are fine on paper, are not constant. I tend to advise a 15 ah pack for 20 amps controllers, so you have that extra bit when you need it a year later. Many many many many many 10 ah 2c rated packs have died fast running bigger dd motors. Since they cost less, and last one season, retailers are very tempting to sell them in kits with 20 amps controllers.

All this stops being a problem if the battery is a 4c rate cell or more. At 4c, half the c rate means 10 ah can still do 20 amps. My rule of thumb is to cut the discharge rate they specify in half, then calculate the size you need.

Back to the motor, if you need to save a few $$ on the motor to apply it to a battery purchase, getting a Yes kit makes good sense. They are not sophisticated kits, but they work fine, and you live right there where you could complain in person if you had a warranty defect.

Your dropouts on the bike are what I would call ideal for a rear motor. Very easy to cut a scrap of steel into a torque plate for them.

 

[Tommy L]

If the Gentleman goes with an entire package from Ebikes.ca, EM3EV, or Amped, it will all be figured out for him.
Then, after gaining experience, pick and choose components, make mistakes, do 3 or 4 builds.
If he has the ability to understand it all, over time, he will be the one recommending kits for noobs

Welcome to the Forum!

Tommy L sends.....