First e-bike build needing suggestions.

[jingles98]

Hi all, been looking through E-S for the last fortnight and figured it was about time to ask you all for suggestions.
As much as i want to build something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX-ki3pP8YU&feature=share (liveforphysics thank you for showing me what e-bikes are capable of) something simpler would probably be better to start with.
I would essentially like around a 30km range (min of 15km as i can charge it at work) and i have a few hills on the trip at some steep gradients.
Speed is a priority between 40-60+ km/h.
I should be able to work out the details with the batteries, just need a bit of guidance as to what motor/controller those of you with more knowledge would recommend.
I do have access to welding/soldering equipment so mods to the bike shouldn't be an issue.

Thank you all for your patience with the new kid.

Forgot to add preferably a non geared, sensored hub motor as i don't want to really use the pedals at all apart from keeping the cops happy that i still have them installed.

 

[Jason27]

Cool bike.
.
I would do a rear wheel conversion from amped bikes and an allcell 48V 12 ah battery like I have.

 

[neptronix]

cell_man MXUS DD would be a bit cheaper. So would that yescomusa kit that wesnewell is fond of.

Cheaper motor kit = more money to blow on a better & bigger battery

 

[Philistine]

Where are you located Jingles?

For some reason your language and aspects of the photo make me suspect you might be Aussie? If you are Aussie, then given shipping costs etc.., I would PM ES member Hyena, and he can supply a DD motor and other bits and pieces at a great price, and give you awesome knowledge and product support (he is based in Sydney, but can ship to you if you are elsewhere).

If you aren't Aussie, then if money isn't a huge limitation for you, my suggestion would be a HS3540 or a 9C 9x7, 12S to 20S lipo (depending whether you want more the 40 or the 60kph end of your goal), and a Lyen 12 Fet with programming cable.

But don't poo poo the geared rear hub too quickly. My personal view is that the first crucial questions in figuring out a build are to ask yourself (in order) 1) how much you are able to spend; 2) What sort of effort are you willing to put in to your battery (by that I mean effort both in maintaining and potentially building your battery - eg lipo, as well as effort as to hiding/carrying the battery), and then 3) the purpose you intend to use it for.

Why I put them in that order, is that obviously budget will be the ultimate limit of everything, but a motor and controller choice will be dictated or limited by what is powering it. If you aren't prepared to make the effort of lipo (effort in both building the battery, and importantly maintaining it), then you are going to be choosing between A123 or Lifepo4, and depending on what battery you have, will dictate what power you can feed the motor.

DD hubs are perfect for reliably punishing with big power, but geared hubs are awesome if you are limited by your battery (both volts and C rate). For example I love my big DD hubs on my 20S(72v)/50amps Greyborg, but my BMC V3 would die on the second street being fed by that. Having said that, my BMC V3 is awesome on my stealth commuter bike which is limited to 10S (36v) due to its stealth factor. You mentioned you had some steep hills, geared hubs are great for that if you are limited by current as well.

This is why it is always so hard for people on this forum to recommend compontents to people, because it really depends a lot on budget and battery limitations (both power limitations, ie the C rate of the battery, and the stealth limitations of battery choice, and technical/maintenance battery limitations of the rider).

Hope that ramble was of some help, but if you are an Aussie, send a PM to Hyena, he is a top bloke. Be aware he may take a few days to respond to a PM as he has recently been in hospital.

Cheers, Phil.

 

[neptronix]

Word about the geared hub. For mid-power, nothing compares to the MAC / BMC style hub motor. A little more high maintenance but worth every penny..

 

[dogman dan]

Muxus, 9c, amped, etc all can do the top speed you want easily at 72v 40 amps. But at 60 kph, too much distance is a problem, both for motor heating and for simply carrying enough battery for travel at that speed.

Fortunately about 8 miles seems to be a pretty reliable distance for such a setup to go at full speed with 10 ah 72v battery that can hack the c rate. Lipo for the win for sure, but A123 would be fine. Just plan on an at work charge, unless you want to pack a 20 ah battery. You won't melt er down at 15 k, so get just about any dd motor and let er rip with a 72v 40 amp controller.

Personally, the 9c / muxus would be my choice. The new HS clyte doesn't impress me much. If you really want to go whole hog, there is an interesting new motor being made avaliable from Greyborg. You could hardly go wrong with his frames too if you have the $$.

Pay a LOT of attention to torque arm and torque plate threads. For that kind of wattage you want thick stuff that fits tight. I really like at least one pinch type device on the disk brake side myself for the big controllers.

 

[dogman dan]

Re the geared motor option. I crossed that off when you said 60kph. For 50 kph max, the cellman Mac motor in the fast version does a nice 30 mph with only 48v battery. So does the 2806 winding of the 9 continent motor at 48v.

FWIW, pedaling along at 30 mph is hard enough unless you have 52-10 gearing. For that reason a 48v system is usually plenty of speed for most commuters.

 

[jingles98]

Thanks heaps for your advice so far guys,

@ Jason27 : Thanks mate, picked it up for $180 today, secondhand off a mate, been very well looked after, even got the original owners manual lol.
@ neptronix : First search of a video clip of the MXUS DD happened to be one of yours on YouTube lol, from what I've seen i like.
@ Phil : Yes i am an Aussie lol, Central Queensland. Will PM Hyena after i finish typing this up.
1) Money isn't too much of an issue provided it's not 9k for a 'Bomber' from Stealth, just don't have those kinds of funds hanging around. If it costs more I'll just have to wait a little longer.
2) From what I've seen on here Li-Po seems to be the way to go and i shouldn't have issues learning how to care/assemble the packs properly (failing that there is always the repository of info on here). Keeping it hidden is going to be a biggy too as in Qld we have a 24V limit, not sure what you guys have down your way (i have no intentions of only running mine on 24V) but will probably build a fiberglass casing for it all to fit in.
3) I need something to get myself to and from work as i just recently lost my license for the next 15 months. Some of this commute is going to be on highway areas where i can legally ride i.e. it's not a motorway, but there is at least 2 hills that i know are bastards to pedal up, haven't seen too many others that don't get off the bike to finish climbing them (I'm in pretty good shape physically and only weigh in at 58kg). Some of the commute will also be at very early hours of the morning 3-4am hence the issue of noise (that and i don't need the extra attention that noise attracts). I was under the impression that the geared hubs were a little noisier than the DD hence why i decided not to worry about them (please correct me if I'm wrong) as for hill climbing ability the same can be achieved with a DD provided the battery can handle the amp draw from the extra load can't they? Sorry for asking so many silly questions i have pretty much overloaded my brain with info over the last 2 weeks and I'm sure to get some of it confused. If i could get a hub same as what they have on the Greyborgs and Stealth Bikes I'd definitely get something like that.
@ dogman : Distance has been a concern for me in all these decisions, it is something i need and if it requires modding the motor to help keep it cool then it has to be done, failing that i might have to start sourcing motors capable of the speed and distance. Putting a motorbike engine on a pushie wasn't my original intention if only for the fact that running it at a much lower speed is still likely to overheat it due to the excess amount of amps at an RPM lower than what it should be running at (again i might be wrong so if i am feel free to let me know). If i had the money i would just go and buy a Greyborg or a Bomber from stealth but i do have access to a MIG and TIG so chopping and welding a frame could also be on the cards further down the track, hell it might even be build #2 lol. The torque arm was something that i will make sure is always in mind regarding an e bike, rather not have something go wrong at speed on the bitumen, I'm ugly enough as it is lol. This bike does only have cable disc brakes so the move to hydraulics will come before the motor is even attached. As for pedaling at speed I'd rather have a twist and go setup and literally use the pedals as a kind of foot-peg that moves a little bit (this is the difference between sensored and unsensored yeah?) If i could legally remove the pedals and turn this thing into a scooter i would.

Again, thanks guys for all of your input and making the 'new kid' feel welcome.

 

[Philistine]

Hi Jingles,

All that background info is really helpful in being able to work out what you are wanting, and hence what is recommended.

You are right that the geared hubs make noise, whereas DDs are basically silent. Having said that, when I say "noise" people aren't turning their heads to look at you, but yes, if they are listening they will hear it when under load.

"sensored" and "unsensored" actually refers to whether the motor has hall sensors. THese tell the controller where the wheel is positioned, and hall sensors make the motor smoother particularly under higher power. The downsides to halls is that they open another fail point. But givven you sound technically minded, you definately want halls, so you need a "sensored" motor. It is important to understand that a sensored motor will work on a sensored or sensorless controller, but a sensoreless motor will only work on a sensorless controller (the only difference between the two motors is whether the three hall sensors have been installed (these appear as five wires, because their is the ground and positive wire as well).

The reason I suggested contacting Hyena is he is very helpful and might have some HS motors or 9C motors available. Shipping built wheels out to Aus' is frikkin expensive, and Hyena did some big group buys and offers a variety of product, I have bought 3 hubmotors off him, he is a good man. If he doesn't have anything available, this website is actually John Karambalis, who is the guy behind the stealth bomber, he sells 9Cs at a good price, and is good to deal with: http://e-mtb.com.au/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=65_66&zenid=de26414dee7f1b072a8a010f46c977e4

My view is you do want to go DD, and you definately should go Lipo. My recommendation for a wheel would be a 9C 9x7, or a crystallite HS3540 (sensored). Get a programmable 12 Fet controller from ES member Lyen. By being programmable, it means you can change the specs of the controller as you change your wishes and needs. Also get a Cycle Analyst. Start with Lipo of at least 12S. My mates 9x7 on 12S will do about 50kph without pedalling, and can take any hill. Given the range you want you want at least 20ah, and if you can fit and afford maybe more. I run a HS3540 on my Greyborg, with 20S@50amps with a 24 Fet controller, and it will do 70kph (I weigh about 95kg).

If you are using the bike as your main transport, at some point you should ask how important that extra speed is to you, because as you increase the power over 2.5kw, you do start to increase risk of "issues" (overheating etc.). But if your power is below 2.5kw, you can run that till the cows come home and not worry about reliability.

This is why I have multiple ebikes all on different voltages/power. I have a cargo bike running 12S@50amps, with a 5304, and it will run on around 2kW, and it will do this for as long as the batteyr will last with no worries of overheating etc.. But my Greyborg running 3.5kw, if I run that for more than 10km full throttle no pedalling with hills, will start to get pretty toasty and need to be watched after that.

If you are keen to just get on the road, you could start by getting a Toppeak rack and bag on the back to hold your lipo, and when you get time graduate to moving the batteris into your frame, that is what I did. Also, don't write off cable disc brakes completely, Avid BB7s (which I think you can get from chainreactioncycles.com for about $60 a set) are cable brakes and are in my opinion better than a lot of hydros, and much cheaper and easier to maintain (having said that, I bet your Avanti brakes are probably fine).

Cheers and best of luck.

 

[jingles98]

Firstly a big thanks guys for all of your ideas on this build, your information has been invaluable. I'll leave this topic up here in case somebody else can find some use for the information. This build has been cancelled indefinitely and the bike will be stock for life. After spending more time wading the forums i have decided to start from scratch on a custom frame. Thanks again guys.

Jingles.