First ride, almost runs. Please help

[chrashing]

Finally hooked it all up today, and took the KMX typhoon with a conhismotor 48V 350watt mini-motor, a 48V 1000W controlled, and a 48V 15ah Lifepo4 battery. The only accessory hooked up to the controller besides the batt and motor is the thumb throttle with a power on/off button and battery level indicator.

If I give the smallest throttle, it starts to go, but then if accelerate more that a tiny amount the motor stops powering the trike. If I am careful to accelerate very little at a time, I am able gain speed and get moving at a good clip, probably was up to 10-15 mph with lots a room to spare on the throttle.

The only other indication that something is wrong is that the throttle battery full/medium/empty lights are all three on. I tried checking the wire against the schematic from the web site, but the throttle wires colors don't match the drawing, the motor and power wires colors do match. The connectors are all unique to fit one way, and all connectors are seated well.

Seems like there is some current limit on, but I know there no big power being drained, after a short ride everything was still cold, not even warm. Where do I start with trouble shooting this? My best guess is that they sent me an old style throttle with their new controller and they don't work together well, maybe. Would they change the wire connections on the connectors? Functionally both my "push button on/off" and throttle and the new "keyed on/off" throttle have the same function.

Conhistmotor Controller pictures/schematic: http://www.conhismotor.com/ProductShow.asp?id=222

 

[Icewrench]

Is the battery fully charged?

 

[chrashing]

thank you for the idea about the battery, Yes, I believe the battery is fully charged. I have charged it for a number of hours. After a short while, the BMS seemed to stop cycling to charge cells, so I think it is fully charged. It's a brand new battery/BMS, of ebay origin.

 

[bowlofsalad]

That must be a crushing feeling.

Perhaps the throttle is broken. Broken as it only a small portion of the throttle is in the green or working. Maybe only the first 10-25% registers.

Have you whipped out the voltmeter and checked the pack?

Do you have any spare throttles?

I've heard of bad throttles before, I plan to purchase at least one spare. There are ebike testers sold by cell_man on em3ev.com. But you can also find them on ebay.

Is the seat on that trike comfortable?

Beyond all that, I'd probably try and check to see if all the wires are surely tight and connecting. If you need to, you could try and splice the wires together perhaps.

 

[agniusm]

Does the motor run smooth? Did controller got worm? I had my motor running funny although controller wasn't cutting out. I had to swap phase wires.

 

[chrashing]

Hello, bowlofsalad, Actually felt really good. I had never ridden a battery trike/bike, and it rode well. It's gonna zip right along when I get past this problem.

I put a voltmeter on the battery before the ride is all, 54V. I'll look for a way to measure that while I'm riding. I'll think about the small portion of the throttle working, but it felt more like working portion of the throttle moved up the throttle as I got going, I'll pay closer attention. I don't have a spare throttle, but today I'm thinking of disconnecting the smaller two lead connector of the throttle, that is the part that the wires do not match the schematic, thinking maybe that connector might just drive the battery charge lights. The throttle will be the first thing I replace.

The seat is sturdy and seems very comfortable, but I don't have a mile on it. The KMX thyphoon model (I have) comes with a upgraded seat, but I don't know what the other seat is like. When I bought the rear motor, I increased the wheel from 20 to 24 inches, which fit without any problems.

Hello agniusm, The motor ran very smooth, with a nice motor sound, so I think the phases are correct. The motor seems to want to go. Everything (controller, motor, battery) was cool after my ride.

Thank you for the great suggestions. For some reason I get into sports that are geographically sparse. Unicycling is been my passion for 9 years, and now am expanding to this electric trikes. These forums seem to be the best place for insight and inspiration.

 

[chrashing]

I had initially missed bowlofsalad's comment about the etester. I didn't know those were available.. Sounds like a good tool to get.

 

[dogman dan]

My best guess will be a throttle defect.

If your throttle wiring in the plugs matches the pic and the diagram, it's correct. Red red, black black, green to white.

One possibility is that you have a poor contact in one of the throttle plug pins. Make sure they are all pushed in all the way when connected. Look at the backside, and hunt for a plug backing out of the housing more than the others.

Chances are disconnecting the keyswitch and battery indicator wires will result in no run. Interestingly, the diagram shows red red, yellow yellow, but the picture shows red to yellow. It should run either way though, since that circuit is closing the switch that turns on the controller.

All the lights on on the throttle just means full battery I think, and they will wink off as you use up the power one by one.

You could try a cheap substitute throttle, bought off ebay or whatever. One with three wires, one wire will be green or white most likely, the others usually black and red. To make the bike turn on, you'd still have to plug the old throttle into the red yellow two wire plug.

 

[dogman dan]

Re reading, you have another throttle? Try that one.

Red red, black black, whatever colors are left to each other, for a three wire throttle.

I once had a similar problem with a throttle. It worked fine with the controller it came with, but when used with another identical controller, it would not give full throttle. It would shut off if I tried for more than 3/4. Never knew why, but it worked fine for thousands of miles provided it stayed with it's original controller.

 

[Ykick]

If I give the smallest throttle, it starts to go, but then if accelerate more that a tiny amount the motor stops powering the trike. If I am careful to accelerate very little at a time, I am able gain speed and get moving at a good clip, probably was up to 10-15 mph with lots a room to spare on the throttle.

Few more details please? It appears that as you open up throttle it quits. Then what? Can you release throttle and re-engage it again? What I'm getting at - what resets the situation? Releasing throttle or do you have to disconnect the battery to cycle this issue?

How's it behave with the wheel off the ground? Can you spin it up to full speed, WOT?

You also mention the battery level lights remain lit. No change in those when the problem happens? Full lights or minimum voltage sag would tend to rule out battery IMO.

Wheel off the ground you can also put a meter on throttle wiring and look for voltage change as throttle is moved. Probably a white, green, blue wire, measure to ground (black). Working throttle range should be around 0.5V-4.5V.

My Conhismotor kits all use current limit cutoff. Stall the wheel and controller shuts down in a second or two. But, it comes back on when the throttle is released. I get the impression this is what you're describing? Or, something similar?

 

[chrashing]

Hello Dogman, I'll go check those connector details. I'm feeling good from your post that the problem is likely the controller or throttle (or even better connector problem). I'm presently hopeful that I can rule out the motor and battery as problem$$. Thank you.

 

[chrashing]

Hello Ykick, More great leads. Thank you.

Few more details please? It appears that as you open up throttle it quits. Then what? Can you release throttle and re-engage it again? Yes, letting up on the throttle (completely) and re-applying a small amount re-engages the motor.

How's it behave with the wheel off the ground? Can you spin it up to full speed, WOT? I'll try that.

You also mention the battery level lights remain lit. No change in those when the problem happens? Full lights or minimum voltage sag would tend to rule out battery IMO. I'll have to pay close attention and recheck, but I believe they they all remained lit and bright.

Wheel off the ground you can also put a meter on throttle wiring and look for voltage change as throttle is moved. Probably a white, green, blue wire, measure to ground (black). Working throttle range should be around 0.5V-4.5V. I'll have to try this.

My Conhismotor kits all use current limit cutoff. Stall the wheel and controller shuts down in a second or two. But, it comes back on when the throttle is released. I get the impression this is what you're describing? Or, something similar? Yes, that is exactly what it felt like. I have no indication( sounds or grinding feeling) that the motor is overloaded.

 

[chrashing]

I've done the following now,

Checked the connectors, and the pins are all well seated.

With the rear wheel off the ground, all works correctly. Able to speed the motor up without the motor cutting out. If I apply rear brake resistance (There are no electric shutoff signals to my brake lever), can duplicate the stalling I feel on the road. Measuring the battery voltage, it is 54V off, 53V with the motor powering a free wheel, then as I slowly increase the rear disk brake pressure, the motor slows and cuts out at 50V.

The lights on the throttle all stay nice and bright after a stall.

Definitely must return the throttle completely back to full off to re-energize the motor once stalled. When riding, after a stall, can then continue on even faster if I carefully provide light acceleration.

Nothing gets warm (except the brakes).

Conclusions:

Still looking like a current limiting problem.

This is showing that the throttle is working as designed. Right, since things work with the wheel unloaded? Progress!

I'd like to rule out the BMS/battery is not limiting the current since the voltage at cutout is a high 50V, showing it's not under a big current load, and the voltage is not drooping when cutting out. I'm not sure it can be ruled out yet.

A controller problem?

 

[BikeFanatic]

the governor wire Disconnect

 

[chrashing]

the governor wire Disconnect

That is connected fine. :lol:

 

[Ykick]

I'm confused about 350W motor but 1000W controller? I probably have very similar controllers but I'm not familiar with that motor? Is it direct drive? Website seems to indicate, yes. Have you asked Conhis rep if there's any known issue running that motor from that controller?

Definitely sounds like overcurrent protection kicking in. Particularly, if throttle behaves normally with no motor load. Dunno why it would be doing that other than controller defect or factory settings aren't compatible with that motor?

 

[Ykick]

the governor wire Disconnect

That is connected fine. :lol:

btw, if he means the 250W Euro limit connection, that should be unplugged to remove limitation from the system. However, in my experience, that function doesn't cutoff the motor as described, it merely limits power output to the motor. Never shutting completely off as the OP describes.

 

[bowlofsalad]

the governor wire Disconnect

I don't know if this is being made clear enough, he is suggesting that there is a governer wire that is connected, and that you should disconnect it. That might be a solution to the speed or throttle limitations.

 

[chrashing]

I'm confused about 350W motor but 1000W controller? I probably have very similar controllers but I'm not familiar with that motor? Is it direct drive? Website seems to indicate, yes. Have you asked Conhis rep if there's any known issue running that motor from that controller?

Definitely sounds like overcurrent protection kicking in. Particularly, if throttle behaves normally with no motor load. Dunno why it would be doing that other than controller defect or factory settings aren't compatible with that motor?

Yeah, it's a geared direct drive hub motor. I ordered the a small motor, so it would not be noticed** and a high watt controller in case I wanted later get a larger motor later. Not sure how efficient the combination is, but thought it would work.

(**I had hoped to hide the battery behind the seat, but I ordered too large of a battery when combined with my increasing the wheel size from 20-24inches. Can't have it all.)

Also, I do not have the euro mode, two white leads shorted.

I have a note to Conhis this weekend, they have been very responsive in the past.

 

[chrashing]

the governor wire Disconnect

I don't know if this is being made clear enough, he is suggesting that there is a governer wire that is connected, and that you should disconnect it. That might be a solution to the speed or throttle limitations.

My mistake then, my apologies to BikeFanatic for my thinking it was a joke. I had no idea what the governor wire is. I do not have the 250watt euro mode leads shorted, is that the same idea?

Thank you BikeFanatice and Bowlofsalad.

 

[Ykick]

As far as I understand, that 1000W controller is intended to be used with one of the large diameter DD (direct drive) hub motors. Somebody with more controller programming experience should chime in but I dunno what's to be expected with that controller attempting to drive a 350W geared hub motor? 'sounds like a recipe for trouble IMO.

One trouble here, Conhis is calling a geared hub motor "direct drive". Sure, any hub motor can be called direct drive - if the rim moves the tire it's directly driving, duh.... Trouble is, that's not how we commonly differenitiate between geared or DD hub motors.

 

[dnmun]

54V while charging is not good. your battery should charge up to 59V while on the charger. i think you have some cells fully charged but one is really low yet.

what battery? what charger?

 

[chrashing]

One trouble here, Conhis is calling a geared hub motor "direct drive". Sure, any hub motor can be called direct drive - if the rim moves the tire it's directly driving, duh.... Trouble is, that's not how we commonly differenitiate between geared or DD hub motors.

Another mistake on my part, I had misused the terms. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[chrashing]

54V while charging is not good. your battery should charge up to 59V while on the charger. i think you have some cells fully charged but one is really low yet.

what battery? what charger?

Hello Dnmun, The battery; fully charged on the charger is 60V, when connected to the controller on the trike, and turned on, 54V(measured at the controller power input). By the spec: it'a LiFePO4 48V 15Ah 30A (BMS set) Max charge V is 60V, Discharge cut-off 35.2. No labels on the ebay battery, is heavy, 20 lbs with BMS. 'Codd Energy' brand Battery Charger is 6 amp.

 

[chrashing]

As far as I understand, that 1000W controller is intended to be used with one of the large diameter DD (direct drive) hub motors. Somebody with more controller programming experience should chime in but I dunno what's to be expected with that controller attempting to drive a 350W geared hub motor? 'sounds like a recipe for trouble IMO.

Hello Ykick, I had cold feet after I ordered the mixed pair of controller and motor, so I emailed Conhis about concerns of burning out the motor. They indicated the mix would not be a problem.

Because the 1000W controller cost the same as the lower power controllers, I choose the higher power controller because it would easily handle the power of the motor, and support any future motor upgrades. I figured that I just need to be careful not to get the 350 watt motor too hot. But now I think I am losing efficientcy with the mismatch. I think I made a poor decision, after all batteries use is all about efficiency. Something I don't understand well.