Forget electric......how about an AIR powered car !!!! >&

[andreweb1]

I'm skeptical about how fast you could recharge.

Consumer CNG pumps are pretty slow to fill a Honda Civic. >6hrs

On par with battery charge times, but lots more mech stuff to maintain.

Compressed gasses seem not too effecient end-to-end, since the heat of compression is a significant loss. At least air is cheap, NG has risen in price along with gas.

:?

Ahh my lpg subaru is as quick as petrol to fill up though.

 

[TylerDurden]

Ahh my lpg subaru is as quick as petrol to fill up though.

At home, or at the filling-station?

Here in the USA, LPG and CNG at the station is fast, but the markup is on par with gasoline.

Home-filling of CNG is cheaper but takes much longer. The machine cost only about $3K, but to maintain it is expensive.

:?

 

[andreweb1]

Ahh my lpg subaru is as quick as petrol to fill up though.

At home, or at the filling-station?

Here in the USA, LPG and CNG at the station is fast, but the markup is on par with gasoline.

Home-filling of CNG is cheaper but takes much longer. The machine cost only about $3K, but to maintain it is expensive.

:?

The problem here is that the UK road fuel price is mostly tax. Fortunately forecourt LPG is 39% the price of petrol and the conversion cost around £1500 or $3000.

 

[Lowell]

It's pretty hard to beat the new TDI diesels.

Sure it is. Try a simple experiment. Run the TDI for 15 minutes. Then fry an egg on it. With an electric motor properly sized to the task, your egg will remain runny. Heat (from an engine) is waste. Inefficient, unless you like your eggs well done.

tks

Lock

A 134hp electric motor (equal to the B5 VW Passat TDI) is going to get warm after driving around for 15 min. In a series hybrid application, a TDI motor makes perfect sense as it can operate in the ideal efficiency range to run a compressor.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=268702
Not bad for a big brick of a wagon. 4.04L/100km.

 

[xyster]

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=268702
Not bad for a big brick of a wagon. 4.04L/100km.

"Fahrfrumpumpen"
That's hilarious!

 

[knightmb]

It's pretty hard to beat the new TDI diesels.

Sure it is. Try a simple experiment. Run the TDI for 15 minutes. Then fry an egg on it. With an electric motor properly sized to the task, your egg will remain runny. Heat (from an engine) is waste. Inefficient, unless you like your eggs well done.

tks

Lock

A 134hp electric motor (equal to the B5 VW Passat TDI) is going to get warm after driving around for 15 min. In a series hybrid application, a TDI motor makes perfect sense as it can operate in the ideal efficiency range to run a compressor.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=268702
Not bad for a big brick of a wagon. 4.04L/100km.

I don't know if you would need a 134hp electric motor though, it seems you just can't compare apples to applies with gas and electric motors. My e-bike at 48 volts easily go 30+MPH on level ground and it's barely 1HP (750 watts), but if I go look for a gas powered anything that does 30+ MPH, I'm looking at 50 cc or higher which depending on the engine design can be anywhere from 4 to 6 HP and loud as hell.

It's like saying that any car engine that produces 130 HP should be able to produce (130 X 750 ) = 97,500 watts of power if the engine were bolted to a generator. That's enough to run 9 Homes at once using almost everything at once (stove, microwave, AC, TV, etc). I just don't see it.

If I were to guess, you would need an electric motor that is rated for about 27 HP to match TDI on performance, provided you had the power to back it up.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

I wuvs Lock & Lowell!

Put another dime in the jukebox, bay-bee.

 

[Lowell]

If a new VW TDI puts 110hp to the wheels with a flat torque curve, an electric version is going to need the same power to weight ratio to match the performance. 0-60 in 10.4 seconds. For comparison, a 48hp 1979 Rabbit deisel takes over 20 seconds to reach 60mph, while weighing far less than a B5 Passat.

Power at the wheels is the same regardless of how it's made. I dyno'd a PT Cruiser turbo today that made 599.9hp at the wheels, which means it puts 447,525.4W to the road. With 15% loss, it might be able to generate 380kW of electricity if hooked to a suitable generator. And to get this performance level with electric motor power would still take about 450kW at the wheels.

 

[xyster]

I wuvs Lock & Lowell!

Put another dime in the jukebox, bay-bee.

Turbo's Drunk Today?

I know how we can find out: Let's ask Turbo to make a song-mod thread using as many member names and songs as he can. The longer and weirder the thread, the higher the ethanol concentration Turbo must be running on.

 

[fechter]

Power at the wheels is the same regardless of how it's made. I dyno'd a PT Cruiser turbo today that made 599.9hp at the wheels, which means it puts 447,525.4W to the road. With 15% loss, it might be able to generate 380kW of electricity if hooked to a suitable generator. And to get this performance level with electric motor power would still take about 450kW at the wheels.

To get the same acceleration times, an electric motor can be quite a bit smaller than an ICE because it has maximum torque at standstill. I'm not sure what the equivalency factor is, but it's substantial.

For a static condition, like climbing a long, steep grade, then they are equal.

 

[knightmb]

Power at the wheels is the same regardless of how it's made. I dyno'd a PT Cruiser turbo today that made 599.9hp at the wheels, which means it puts 447,525.4W to the road. With 15% loss, it might be able to generate 380kW of electricity if hooked to a suitable generator. And to get this performance level with electric motor power would still take about 450kW at the wheels.

To get the same acceleration times, an electric motor can be quite a bit smaller than an ICE because it has maximum torque at standstill. I'm not sure what the equivalency factor is, but it's substantial.

For a static condition, like climbing a long, steep grade, then they are equal.

Ah, that's what I've been missing. The ICE engine isn't at maximum HP until it' hits the best RPM range, I forgot about that.

 

[xyster]

Ah, that's what I've been missing. The ICE engine isn't at maximum HP until it' hits the best RPM range, I forgot about that.

As I recall, HP = Torque X RPM. So the low-revving torque-monster engines are a little more equivalent to electric motors.

 

[Lowell]

Ah, that's what I've been missing. The ICE engine isn't at maximum HP until it' hits the best RPM range, I forgot about that.

As I recall, HP = Torque X RPM. So the low-revving torque-monster engines are a little more equivalent to electric motors.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/24/four-cylinders-400-nm-bmws-new-turbo-diesel/

Turbo diesel torque curves aren't that much different than electric motors, except at near idle speeds of course. It's amazing how the BMW motor makes 50% of peak torque at only 1200rpm, and peak torque at 2000rpm.

A 150kW electric motor is still going to need some revs to reach peak power, and you wouldn't want to operate it in the low rpm high torque area where efficiency is bad...

 

[xyster]

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/24/four-cylinders-400-nm-bmws-new-turbo-diesel/

Turbo diesel torque curves aren't that much different than electric motors, except at near idle speeds of course. It's amazing how the BMW motor makes 50% of peak torque at only 1200rpm, and peak torque at 2000rpm.

A 150kW electric motor is still going to need some revs to reach peak power, and you wouldn't want to operate it in the low rpm high torque area where efficiency is bad...

We can squeeze 400 newton-meters of torque out of just 3 5304 hubmotors. Buy the car, ebay the engine, replace the wheels with 5304 hubmotors (each with a 60 amp controller), the gas tank with some lithium batteries....?

 

[Lowell]

Now if only they could make 400Nm at 2000rpm...

 

[xyster]

Now if only they could make 400Nm at 2000rpm...

I thought you might point that out.

Looks like a 5304 can generate 70 n-m at 1/2 peak rpm, compared to 400 n-m for that engine at a little under 1/2 its peak rpm. So we'd need six 5304's running through a drivetrain like a super stokemonkey.

 

[Lowell]

How about eight Predator 37's with series/parallel switching.

http://www.plettenberg-motoren.com/UK/Motoren/aussen/Predator37/Motor.htm

 

[knightmb]

Now if only they could make 400Nm at 2000rpm...

I thought you might point that out.

Looks like a 5304 can generate 70 n-m at 1/2 peak rpm, compared to 400 n-m for that engine at a little under 1/2 its peak rpm. So we'd need six 5304's running through a drivetrain like a super stokemonkey.

It's scary to think that enough hub motors can drive around a car around with enough power to make it sporty :lol:

 

[xyster]

Yah, scary what it says about the sheer mass of crap it takes to make an internal combustion engine powerful enough to propel a car.

 

[Lowell]

Well I wouldn't call it sporty, but it would move around under it's own power.