front hub motor kit

[DeadEyeDave]

Hey all! I have haunted this forum for a while with dreams of adding an electric motor to my bike. You all are very knowledgable, moreso than I will ever be. And so, I come to thee with some questions. Let me explain my plans and then I will ask you the questions that are on my mind.

I have a Trek Navigator 400. http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2003/archive/trek/navigator400/

My plan is to put a hub motor on the front wheel. There is a thread on here with a guy who had the same bike as me asking about putting a motor on the front, http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=48291&p=710801&hilit=trek+navigator#p710801

It is an aluminum frame with aluminum forks on the front. I know that some people said that it is a bad idea to put the motor on that. I would be using torque arms and everything to hopefully make it safer. Now my reasoning behind putting a motor on the front instead of the back is because I plan on putting an 80cc IC motor on the back. I want to put the electric on the front for low end torque and stealth while riding through residential areas. I go to work at 4:45 in the morning and my neighbors would shoot me if I ran a two stroke by their homes.

I want to buy some sort of front hub motor kit. An all in kit with everything included. I don't want to buy parts and pieces and have to wire batteries together and figure out how to charge and balance and maintain them, and worry about my place burning down if I do something wrong.

So, I'm looking for a kit, I think 350-500 watts. My daily ride to work is about 5 miles each way with no BIG hills, but there are hills along the way that I will need to go up. Is there some kind of kit that includes everything, sorta plug and play? stick on a new wheel with hub, strap the controller battery and throttle on the bike and go? Like I said, I'm looking for a simple battery setup. Something that I can plug in at night and not worry about untill I unplug the charger and go to work.

So does such a kit exist? I'm looking to spend up to 1000, but if I'm being honest, I will be happier spending less.

I'm comfortable with a wrench, I do believe that I can install a system onto the bike, but the battery forums really freak me out. you guys are on another level with the battery stuff and I have to admit that is what scares me the most. If there is a system that is akin to charging a power tool battery, I would feel so much more comfortable.


Thanks for any help you guys can give. I've have fun over the past few months reading through this forum and checking out the amazing bikes that you all put together.


Dave

 

[YoSamES]

I've been searching hard for a week or two for the same thing. I got a lot of good advice here. What I found was that there are cheap all-in-one kits from China vendors. You would need a working knowledge of how to put one together and probably some improvisation skills. The shipping is not displayed till you set up an account, and turns out to be quite high.

Most of the more reputable vendors package the kits without batteries, and you select the battery separately. And often the batteries, while assembled, are not packed into a ready-to-mount case. Some of the vendors don't even sell any cases for their batteries. So the things require a little more assembly than you are wanting. But it's not the assembly that would be hard. It's just knowing what pieces you need. From my recent experiences, this is where almost all of the vendors are dropping the ball. They seem to assume that the buyer is knowledgeable about what makes a good fit for your goals between motor, controller, battery, and mounting all of the above. As you noticed, the battery turns out to be the most mysterious part of the puzzle, yet vendors are not making battery "system" purchasing very easy.
.
I'll be interested to see what you find out. I ended up buying a kit without battery from ypedal.com, and I think I'm buying a battery from electricrider.com. The actual connection between a battery and "the kit" is only two wires, so it's not much bother in the overall scheme. But the battery mounting is something you'll have to give some real thought to. Good luck and have fun.

 

[yopappamon]

Hi Dave.

Just my opinion but once you go electric, an ice just isn't an option. You can get more speed and plenty of range from the right electric kit.

What max speed are you looking for?

 

[Gregory]

Welcome Dave,

For a 10 mile round trip a generator is a very odd choice – do you already own it and want to save on buying a bigger capacity battery? That distance at 500W would use way less than 10Ah of lithium or even 18Ah of lead.

There are plenty of vendors offering complete kits, but not knowing what country you live in makes it difficult to make a recommendation. From the use of “thee” I assume you live in 17th century England? (that’s a joke )

Depending on desired speed, pedalling effort etc I’d personally be looking at a rear geared hub kit on 48V & 10Ah of lithium.
Buy the best you can afford for reliability.

This forum is more geared towards DIY but a secondhand/demo factory ebike would be cheap and relatively easy way to get started for someone with no electrical knowledge, even if you had to replace the battery. Most countries would have a few advertised in the local classifieds.

 

[DeadEyeDave]

well, the ICE was going to be for top end speed. I would have that on a seperate throttle. The electric would be pretty much for low end, getting up to speed, and those times that I can't have the ICE running. I was looking to be able to get about 15-20 miles out of the electric. top end doesn't matter much too much as long as it doesn't go at a crawl.

So, I'm guessing talking ICE is heresy here. But my plan was to have that power the back wheel. it's a simple setup with a two stroke engine, and it's very cheap. Less than 200 for a complete setup. And then the electric to augment the ICE with low end power, and for when I am not able to run the gas motor.

BTW, I'm from the states, I live in a suburb of philly.

So, internal combustion on the back wheel, Electric hub on the front, and pedals if both motors take a crap on me.

So as far as a kit for electric power, does that exist? like the whole deal in one plug and play kit? batteries, controller, throttle, motor etc?

thanks


dave

 

[FeralDog]

well, the ICE was going to be for top end speed. I would have that on a seperate throttle. The electric would be pretty much for low end,..............
So, I'm guessing talking ICE is heresy here. ...............But my plan was to have that power the back wheel. it's a simple setup with a two stroke engine, and it's very cheap. Less than 200 for a complete setup. And then the electric to augment the ICE with low end power, and for when I am not able to run the gas motor...........
..........BTW, I'm from the states, I live in a suburb of philly.
So as far as a kit for electric power, does that exist? like the whole deal in one plug and play kit? batteries, controller, throttle, motor etc?
thanks
dave

Welcome Dave from Philly!
I have never considered "talking I.C.E. (internal combustion engines) here as heresy" on ES. Combining both I.C.E. and electric motors has a very long, and effective history. Hybridization is part of the past, present, and future of many successful electric transport methods.
Granted , any forum can have its' cult of "puritans" for various righteous reasons. IMHO, I see your inquiry as completely valid here on ES.
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So, the gist of your desire is to have a 10 mile round trip, assuming you may be happy with, say, 20-25mph top speed on a pedal bicycle?
Also, may I assume you mean an 80cc 2-stroke "friction drive motor" ICE scrubbing against the rear tire?

Then ,in general, the 80cc ICE engine is probably redundant. Not really needed.
Teets on a Tomcat.

A 36volt Direct Drive, or a 48volt DD front , rear, or even a mid-drive could easily accomplish that with no extra ICE engine needed. (there are more versions that others will surely recommend)
I usually refer the e-kits and e-bicycle info of this vendor , because of his generosity to this forum http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_nc.php. Read his various informational sections, look his kits over. Good place to start.

As a side note: an ICE friction drive on the rear wheel can be sloppy-spooky on wet pavement, But they can do as you initially wanted --- they can be successfully used for second stage power when on long trips , or when much more speed & distance is needed in areas where the "chainsaw-like" noise is not a problem and they are legal.
{An 80cc 2-stroke is illegal on bicycles in my State as we are limited to 49cc before falling into a different motor vehicle class. }

What real top end speed on your 5 mile each way trip would you be OK with , is the first question you really need to answer.

 

[mark5]

Dave, the Hybrid Bikes & Trikes forum of motorbicycling.com covers gas-electric bikes. Like this very fancy one for example: Hybrid Gas/Electric (.50 Cal gun mount not included). But it doesn't look like there are many hybrid builds there. On your bike I wouldn't be surprised if running a gas engine in an aluminum frame isn't recommended because of the engine mounts vibrating and stressing the frame.

 

[Gregory]

Some US sellers come to mind, but I don’t think any of them (e-bikekit, SF bikes, Grin Cyclery or Amped) will have a front full kit for <$1000 unless it’s SLA, but that will be a heavy hybrid.
Maybe Golden Motor Canada could do sub $1000 with lithium.

I haven’t used BMSBattery but some people swear by them, even if they don’t do after sales service and slog you on the shipping. They are cheap.


I think em3EV.com will do a quality front kit for $1000, he’s one of the best. That would be my pick.

 

[dogman dan]

Yes, you can put a front motor on that bike. You must have two c washers and two torque arms that fit. Grin cyclery for those.

But NO you won't want an Ice motor for a ride of that length if you get a decent hubmotor. Believe me, the smooth nearly silent hubmotor will be much nicer to ride. Gas hybrid can make sense, but a 10 mile ride is just too easy for electric alone.

I'd say the standard recommendation applies to your needs. A slightly more powerful rear hubmotor, and a 36v battery that will fit in your frames triangle. It will go up your hills with no problems. 10% grades are fine.

That bike has a small triangle though, so a front hub could be a option still. The Direct drive kit and battery from EM3ev is one option that might fit your budget.

Even cheaper, the same kit, but RC batteries. But the RC stuff needs to be handled with great care.

 

[patpatbut]

Maybe this new kit from BMSbattery is good for you

http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/648-s06-250w-imitation-torque-square-wave-controller.html

http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/649-s06-250w-imitation-torque-square-wave-controller.html

he good thing about this kit is pretty much just plug and play. The only connection you need to sort out is between the battery and the controller.

Pat

 

[The fingers]

Personally (ie:IMHO) I wouldn't do it. I value my front teeth too much.

 

[footloose]

Skip the complex electric/ICE combo.
Go with a simple rear-drive electric.

Lot of people like the Mac setups from EM3ev.com, and they are simple to set up.
If you purchase both motor and battery from them, all the connections are plug-and-play.
I have one, it is a workhorse, plenty fast for commuting and handles hills easily.

This setup -- motor, electronics, battery, charger -- would cost you $925 (plus shipping) and give you a top speed ~30mph:
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=36&product_id=55 $355
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=158 $510
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=37&product_id=120 $60

A direct drive setup from them would be a bit cheaper, but maybe not as good for commute if you have lots of stop/start on the route.

 

[dogman dan]

Not much love for the gas motors here. But believe me, I've seen some really nice ones I'd love to have.

If it wasn't for the noise issue, I'd just send you over to their forum, Motorbicycling.com. Or, on the other hand, get a slightly better muffler for your bike, and screw the neighbors.

But the one time I did ride a cheap sucky gas powered bike, I was amazed how uncomfortable it was compared to my electric. Just so much vibration with a cheap china girl kit. And my electric bike easily ran down the cheap gas bikes in the race.

Hard to catch the guys with good gas bikes though. So my advice is spend the extra for electric and still have a great bike, rather than go with a cheap gas kit. But nothing wrong with doing a gas bike right. 8)