Going LiPo - Advice Required

[NeilP]

Yep the 10s nano tech packs have two long leads and two short one.

Connect the two short one together to give you the full 10s pack.
I t is not a real 10s pack, it is two 5s packs in one wrapper, Four main cables and two 6 pin (5s ) balance taps

This is not just me assuming..I have 8 of them.

Much less wiring than if you had to make the same config up using individual 5 s packs

Still a rates nest of wires though

View attachment 3




So I got rid on the Goodrum/tppacks LVC/HVC board and just made parallel leads from the extensions

View attachment 2

Personally, I think it's just a waste of money when you can get 2 5ah 6s bricks for less and have more speed and range.

Depends on your available space. If you make the harness your self..OK so without balance board..with each parallel lead set only as long as it needs to be you can really get rid of a lot of wiring clutter.

OK, so in theory you should have each wire then same length on the parallel harness...but in practice I have seen no difference in over 3000 miles and 150 cycles






Sorry about the focus on the last one

Each lead of the parallel harness is cut to the exact length required, so the main leads all fold down flat on top of the packs.

This does mean you must make up the harness yourself though..Allthough people like Chris make up good harnesses, they cant compete space wise on a homemade harness cut to your exact length requirements



And yes

 

[kudos]

NeilP,

Good to hear from someone else in the Channel Islands!

Your LiPo skills are substantial. I have just ordered my first charger/PSU/LiPo/Cell-Log and I have never made-up or soldered any wire before, a skill I'm going to need to learn.

Thanks for clarifying the two power-lead issue.

Do you tend to stick with bullet connectors? Some people use the Anderson connectors it seems.

Cheers,
Kudos

 

[hjns]

Hmm. If you have never soldered before, make sure to search youtube for "how to solder", and watch all movies before doing anything yourself.

Get a good soldering station, preferably with different soldering temperatures and different tips (small tip for pcb soldering, large tip for the 12AWG wires), good solder with and without rasin, some copper braids and a solder sucker to get rid of too much solder, and practice practice practice.

And start with small wires (like 22AWG), moving to larger wires (12AWG) only when you have some confidence with soldering smaller wires. Before you try to solder the big wires needed for a harnass, do a search on "soldering big wires" here on ES and read all threads before doing anything yourself.

Oh, and do you have a universal voltage meter? Any 10$ version will do. You are going to need it.

I have just ordered my first charger/PSU/LiPo/Cell-Log and I have never made-up or soldered any wire before, a skill I'm going to need to learn.

 

[AussieJester]

re: soldering...You definately dont need an expensive soldering station, soldering is dead simple, you would have to
be severely uncoordinated not to be able to manage to solder a couple of wires together... a ~20 dollar iron is all you need
for this e-bike business, the Turbo Iron 20-130watt) is what i use was recommended by Liveforphysics a few years ago on ES
i have gone through a few of them since great irons, grab a small tip and a hammer tip and you have all you need
for the smaller and large wires, i do upto 8ga wire with mine no problemo...

KiM

 

[NeilP]

hey a donkey....will like to see you riding a bike (note to non Channel Islanders...inter island rivalery..we call Guernsey men donkeys)

Yes, I stick to the bullets for the pack to harness connectors, then use big spade terminals from Ed Lyen for the main part of the harness. Yuo can just see one in the picture of the pack with the LVC board on top

If you need any advice, you can always give me a call, or if you are in Jersey anytime pop in and say hi. I work shift work for BlueIslands and am sometimes in Guernsey for a few hours if i am on a specific PM shift. We could always meet up...aero club is good as i do not have Guernsey transport

Have PM'd you with my phone number

if you are looking to buy more stuff...from China or USA..maybe we could team up and do a single buy...reduce postage costs...and if I ship to you...I can get around our Jersey GST :lol:

 

[hjns]

the Turbo Iron 20-130watt) is what i use was recommended by Liveforphysics a few years ago on ES
i have gone through a few of them since great irons, grab a small tip and a hammer tip and you have all you need
for the smaller and large wires, i do upto 8ga wire with mine no problemo...
KiM

Ah, that is nice! I still have two irons: a 15W version for the small work, and a 100W version for the big work. Good to see that you can combine that!

 

[NeilP]

Although a high wattage iron..it still has a small tip.
Ideally for soldering big wire you need the high watts and a big tip..holds its heat. Look for plumbers irons.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Hexacon-P250-Extra-HD-250W-Soldering-Iron-5-8-120V-/260892375855?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUA%26otn%3D5%26pmod%3D380362158161%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D4376554270851387962

http://www.somersetsolders.com/product.php/762/0/heavy_duty_250w_soldering_iron_ab3158x

 

[AussieJester]

Hence I recommended a "hammer tip" for
Lareger wires, Neil...hobby king sell
Them cheap, should try one :wink:

KiM

 

[dscline]

Since we're talking LiPo basics, am I correct in assuming that when wiring packs in parallel, also wiring the balancing connectors in parallel could help to keep the individual cells in balance? I presume the balancing connectors are there primarily for use during the charge cycle with balancing chargers, but it seems that connecting cells that are at the same voltage together would also help maintain balance during discharge. I realize it wouldn't do anything for cell to cell deviation in the series direction, but it seems maintaining balance in the parallel direction would be better than nothing.

 

[hjns]

Yep. That's what I do. I have connected both main leads as well as balancing wires in parallel. So, for example a 5S2P pack, consisting of 2 bricks of 5S1P lipos; the main leads (+ & -) are paralleled (+ connected to + and - connected to -), and the balancing wires as well (ground of cell 1 of pack 1 connected to ground of cell 1 of pack 2, and so forth for all 5 cells).

Upon discharge, the cells will show an "average" profile, meaning that if a good and a bad cell are paralleled, you would see the performance of that combo go down faster than the combo of 2 good cells, but not as fast as the performance of the individual bad cell. In other words, you would hit LVC later than when the individual bad cell was not paralleled to a good cell. Of course, the good cell will be dragged down with the bad cell as well.

Therefore, small deviations between cells will be averaged and will have less impact when cells are paralleled, leading to better maintenance of balance. However, it will not make regular balancing of cells unnecessary.

Since we're talking LiPo basics, am I correct in assuming that when wiring packs in parallel, also wiring the balancing connectors in parallel could help to keep the individual cells in balance? I presume the balancing connectors are there primarily for use during the charge cycle with balancing chargers, but it seems that connecting cells that are at the same voltage together would also help maintain balance during discharge. I realize it wouldn't do anything for cell to cell deviation in the series direction, but it seems maintaining balance in the parallel direction would be better than nothing.

 

[NeilP]

Hence I recommended a "hammer tip" for
Lareger wires, Neil...hobby king sell
Them cheap, should try one :wink:

KiM

No need, I have a huge one, triangle point head about one and half inches across at the widest point, 250 or 300Watt, originally a plumbers tool

 

[Allex]

Hey,
I'm also planning on buying Nano-tech lipo 10s and run as 36V20Ah as 10s4p setup. I'm having lots of questions
I want to have a very simple charge solution, just plug it in with "one cord" and start charging all the packs together. So leaning towards iCharger 1010b+ The question is how do I connect everything? Take a look at my sketch, do you find anything crazy?

First I need to connect main leads in series on each pack to get 36v. Then connect 4 big packs for parallel use - check
Then I need to make two 4to1 balance harness to connect all the balance plugs together - right?
Then I connect main two leads from packs to the charger and 2 harness to each 5s port on balance board which then goes to the charger?

 

[kudos]

Allex,

I can't comment on your diagram there, I'm just getting started with LiPo myself, my first batch of kit arrived the other day including a 10S and a 1010b+.

I seem to get the impression that many people only balance their packs now and again (once they know the pack is all good and there are no awkward cells not holding charge like the others)

So you can just bulk charge all the packs for a few cycles, then only balance say once a week, rather than every time.

Of course, you can bulk balance as well, looks like some people do, but that involves making some elaborate balance cables.

I'm temped to get some of the ready made bulk charge + discharge harness'. This gives you essentially a 1-plug solution that you mention. However, you would have to balance separately .

Cheers,
Kudos

 

[hjns]

Hey,
I'm also planning on buying Nano-tech lipo 10s and run as 36V20Ah as 10s4p setup. I'm having lots of questions
I want to have a very simple charge solution, just plug it in with "one cord" and start charging all the packs together. So leaning towards iCharger 1010b+ The question is how do I connect everything? Take a look at my sketch, do you find anything crazy?

First I need to connect main leads in series on each pack to get 36v. Then connect 4 big packs for parallel use - check
Then I need to make two 4to1 balance harness to connect all the balance plugs together - right?
Then I connect main two leads from packs to the charger and 2 harness to each 5s port on balance board which then goes to the charger?

This is exactly how I charge my 4x 10S1P lipos in 10S4P configuration. I actually bought some D-sub 25-pins connectors, and soldered a harnass for 4P for easy connecting.

I kept the stock JST plugs connected to the lipos, but I identified which balance wires are belonging to cells 5 and 6, so not to insert the two JST plugs in the wrong order (6-7-8-9-10 || 1-2-3-4-5), which would give a nice 37V spark.
I created a conversion harnass, converting from the individual JST plugs to a common D-sub connector (2 lipos, aka 4 JST plugs fit into one D-sub 25pins connector). These 2 D-sub connectors plug into a paralleling D-sub connector which is then connected to the balancing wires into the iCharger. Therefore, in order to parallel charge, I only have to plug in the two D-sub connectors for balanced charging.
Of course, I also created a harnass for parallel charging the main leads.

 

[NeilP]

Diagram is fine
You will probably not balance charge much if you get a bulk charger
I have a 20 series pack made of the same 10s packs
I connect them up as 8p for charging with 3010b
But mostly I just charge with a pair of Meanwells set to 84 volts, so in your case one 48 volt meanwell set at 41.5 volt with about an 8 amp current limit

I last balance charged about3 weeks ago, and I bulk charge everyday

 

[hjns]

...
But mostly I just charge with a pair of Meanwells set to 84 volts, so in your case one 48 volt meanwell set at 41.5 volt with about an 8 amp current limit

I last balance charged about3 weeks ago, and I bulk charge everyday

Make sure to get original Meanwells. I recently connected some cheap ebay clones in series and they blew within 5 minutes of charging...

 

[NeilP]

well they would if you had not done a current mod or limit the current in some way

Even originals will blow unles you limit the current

I have been using a clone for 2 months now charging a 12s2p pack every 2 or 3 days..with a tppacks charge control board.

Not all clones are made equal...you still need a clone that is an exact copy of the s- series in ordert to do the mod..other wise you are on your own

Even an original meanwe4ll is no guarantee that they will not blow..I have a cooked NES meanwell that I blew with in a few minutes of trying out some ideas to add current limiting

 

[hjns]

oops, maybe I should have browsed ES first before blowing my MW clones....

 

[NeilP]

yep...get reaading before you cost yourself any more money..get pen a paper to hand too..or a new text document and and cut/paste useful snippets..especially from the 45 page threads...you will never find the info again without reading through it all again!!


https://sites.google.com/site/shelbyelectro/Mods-and-technical/batteries/bulk-charging-with-a-meanwell

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6749&p=209094#p209094

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4125&start=30

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/posting.php?mode=reply&f=3&t=33981

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14011&p=211511&hilit=Meanwell+S+35#p211511

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4125&p=228838#p228838


YOu may need to tinker to get no S- Series meanwells to work with fechters board
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=21768&start=0

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=21156&p=310725#p308009

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/e-bent/meanwell/default.htm

 

[hjns]

amazing, wonderful, thanks!!

reading.....

 

[Allex]

Ok, so you have to be carefull on how to insert the balancers on the board huh?
How do I know which one should be on the right and left side? what happens if i plug it in the wrong connector, will I damage the battery or something else? :|

Hey,
I'm also planning on buying Nano-tech lipo 10s and run as 36V20Ah as 10s4p setup. I'm having lots of questions
I want to have a very simple charge solution, just plug it in with "one cord" and start charging all the packs together. So leaning towards iCharger 1010b+ The question is how do I connect everything? Take a look at my sketch, do you find anything crazy?

First I need to connect main leads in series on each pack to get 36v. Then connect 4 big packs for parallel use - check
Then I need to make two 4to1 balance harness to connect all the balance plugs together - right?
Then I connect main two leads from packs to the charger and 2 harness to each 5s port on balance board which then goes to the charger?

This is exactly how I charge my 4x 10S1P lipos in 10S4P configuration. I actually bought some D-sub 25-pins connectors, and soldered a harnass for 4P for easy connecting.

I kept the stock JST plugs connected to the lipos, but I identified which balance wires are belonging to cells 5 and 6, so not to insert the two JST plugs in the wrong order (6-7-8-9-10 || 1-2-3-4-5), which would give a nice 37V spark.
I created a conversion harnass, converting from the individual JST plugs to a common D-sub connector (2 lipos, aka 4 JST plugs fit into one D-sub 25pins connector). These 2 D-sub connectors plug into a paralleling D-sub connector which is then connected to the balancing wires into the iCharger. Therefore, in order to parallel charge, I only have to plug in the two D-sub connectors for balanced charging.
Of course, I also created a harnass for parallel charging the main leads.

 

[hjns]

Ok, so you have to be carefull on how to insert the balancers on the board huh?
How do I know which one should be on the right and left side? what happens if i plug it in the wrong connector, will I damage the battery or something else? :|

Yes, a 37V spark can damage the connectors and make plasma out of the metal parts of the connectors. Get a volt meter, and measure the voltage over the red and black wires. Usually, the configuration is like this:

Cells: |Cell1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10|
Balance wires of 1st JST plug: black ground wire to cell 1|balance wire to cell 1|balance wire to cell 2|balance wire to cell 3|balance wire to cell 4|red balance wire to cell 5|
Balance wires of 2nd JST plug: black ground wire to cell 6|balance wire to cell 6|balance wire to cell 7|balance wire to cell 8|balance wire to cell 9|red balance wire to cell 10|

Now within the 1st JST plug, the red balance wire to cell 5 should have a +18.5V potential to the black ground wire to cell1.
Similarly, wihtin the 2nd JST plug, the red balance wire to cell 10 should have a +18.5V potential to the black ground wire to cell6.

Between the 2 JST plugs, the red balance wire to cell 10 of plug 2 should have a +37V potential to the black ground wire to cell1 on plug 1. And vice versa, the red balance wire to cell 5 of plug 1 should have a +0V potential to the black ground wire to cell6 on plug 2. These last two wires should be together when plugging the JST plugs into the balancing board.

The explanation above looks more complicated than it is. Just measure the voltage between the red wire on the first plug and the black wire on the second plug. If no voltage difference, then these should be plugged in close to each other. If 37V difference, then you are looking at the opposite ends of the plugs.

 

[hjns]

I seem to get the impression that many people only balance their packs now and again (once they know the pack is all good and there are no awkward cells not holding charge like the others)

So you can just bulk charge all the packs for a few cycles, then only balance say once a week, rather than every time.

Of course, you can bulk balance as well, looks like some people do, but that involves making some elaborate balance cables.

I'm temped to get some of the ready made bulk charge + discharge harness'. This gives you essentially a 1-plug solution that you mention. However, you would have to balance separately .

Cheers,
Kudos

I only do not bulk charge yet because I blew the fuses of the bulk chargers because I did not pay attention and did not use the current limiter mod. So, either get a bulk charger that is already suitable for charging lipos (like the BMS chargers), or make sure to current limit any MW or clone PSUs before using them as bulk charger.

However, after my daily commute, balanced charging of my 10S4P packs with my 1010b iCharger takes between 1 and 1.5h. No problem for me.

 

[jmygann]

Have a similar project ... not sure if to run 22V or 44V ...4- 6s 22.2V 20-30c 5ah

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34445

 

[NeilP]

surely it has to be 44 volt minimum.but if it is a hub motor you won't get much speed out of it..girlfriends bike is 12 series..so 44.4v nominal, it is a geared front motor and it will only manage about 22mph...ok so different motors, different windings etc, but still seems a bit low