got a criminal citation- e-bikes are unknown in FL court!

[Matt Gruber]

SAYS Make: HOME
year 0
Style: MOP

NO MOTORIZED VEHICLE REGISTRATION
ELECTRIC BICYCLE W/ no pedals.
320.02-1 statute

i guess i'll have to get one w/pedals 5-5-07 EDIT: skip to page 3. pedals NOT required in FL

 

[BiGH]

I'm really sorry to hear it Matt. You must be devistated. Pedals are a must, in my opinion.

In Australia it's a heafty fine, does a Criminal citation mean you have to go to court?

 

[knightmb]

SAYS Make: HOME
year 0
Style: MOP

NO MOTORIZED VEHICLE REGISTRATION
ELECTRIC BICYCLE W/ no pedals.
320.02-1 statute

i guess i'll have to get one w/pedals

Go any links to their law books? I checked the government city website and couldn't find a copy. I'd be curious to what that statute says exactly.

 

[Matt Gruber]

YES court.
i invited the sargent to my house in the hopes......
NO DICE
he says my psev is specifically illegal too, :
A RAZOR GO PED" he called it.
..
knight
i asked him to mail me a copy of the law.
he thinks it COULD be registered
but it can't it's a toy.
fine $120 will plead not guilty, its a TOY cant be reg.
u can google FL STATUTE 320.02-1
i cant read pdf, i just gave up for now

 

[Mathurin]

Is this criminal as in: "No longer allowed access in most countries"?

 

[knightmb]

knight
i asked him to mail me a copy of the law.
he thinks it COULD be registered
but it can't it's a toy.
fine $120 will plead not guilty, its a TOY cant be reg.
u can google FL STATUTE 320.02-1
i cant read pdf, i just gave up for now

Ok, found it thanks. It's basically the statute for "No Motor Vehicle Registration" which has a $120 fine.

I think even without pedals you are in the clear. The laws doesn't say you need pedals, only that it must stay under 20 MPH, have 2 wheels, and the rider must be over the age of 16. So if you are 16 or older and were doing 18.6 MPH (even better if it's written on the ticket) then you are in the clear. Take it to court, request that court fees be waived, throw the law book at them and walk out with a smile, better yet, ride away on your electric bicycle
Florida State Law Link

Florida State law says:

(2) BICYCLE.--Every vehicle propelled solely by human power, and every motorized bicycle propelled by a combination of human power and an electric helper motor capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of not more than 20 miles per hour on level ground upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels, and including any device generally recognized as a bicycle though equipped with two front or two rear wheels. The term does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position or a scooter or similar device. No person under the age of 16 may operate or ride upon a motorized bicycle.

 

[CGameProgrammer]

That can't possibly be a "criminal" statute; traffic violations are not crimes. Florida really is draconian though; both electric and gas scooters are illegal there, it's true. Stupidest thing I've ever heard.

You have two options: Add pedals, or register the thing. Registration may necessitate adding blinkers and a brake light somehow (and possibly a rear-view mirror), I'm not sure. Probably depends on the state.

EDIT: ^^^^ That law states it must be powered by a combination of human and electric power. Without pedals, it is only powered electrically, and thus is not a motorized bicycle as the law defines it.

 

[TylerDurden]

It actually could be regarded as a criminal offense, but more likely a civil-infraction; like most traffic stuff. I would consult a local lawyer ASAP. A criminal offense is a bitch for many reasons, obvious and not so obvious.

That said, it looks like they have their bases covered.

I don't do the tinyurl thing, so take out the six stars broken by a space (***** *****) in the following urls:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?***** *****App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0320/SEC02.HTM&Title=->2006->Ch0320->Section%2002#0320.02

320.02 Registration required; application for registration; forms.--

1(1) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, every owner or person in charge of a motor vehicle which is operated or driven on the roads of this state shall register the vehicle in this state. The owner or person in charge shall apply to the department or to its authorized agent for registration of each such vehicle on a form prescribed by the department. No registration is required for any motor vehicle which is not operated on the roads of this state during the registration period.



http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?***** *****App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0320/SEC01.HTM&Title=->2006->Ch0320->Section%2001#0320.01

320.01 Definitions, general.--As used in the Florida Statutes, except as otherwise provided, the term:

(37) "Electric vehicle" means a motor vehicle that is powered by an electric motor that draws current from rechargeable storage batteries, fuel cells, or other sources of electrical current.



http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?***** *****App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=bicycle&URL=Ch0316/Sec003.HTM


STATE UNIFORM TRAFFIC CONTROL

316.003 Definitions.--The following words and phrases, when used in this chapter, shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this section, except where the context otherwise requires:

(2) BICYCLE.--Every vehicle propelled solely by human power, and every motorized bicycle propelled by a combination of human power and an electric helper motor capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of not more than 20 miles per hour on level ground upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels, and including any device generally recognized as a bicycle though equipped with two front or two rear wheels. The term does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position or a scooter or similar device. No person under the age of 16 may operate or ride upon a motorized bicycle.


Sux to have this happen, Matt. Consult a lawyer ASAP.

 

[TylerDurden]

You might have a chance if you modify your set to be able to go higher than 25".

Then claim that you failed to show the officer that it is a bicycle.

Edit: figure out how to get pedals too... maybe the serial setup: drive a generator to drive the motor.

 

[Rassy]

I live in Oregon, not Florida, but that 25 inch seat height could be a problem for just about every recumbent. The seat on my delta trike is under 20", but it is still higher than the seat in my Honda Civic Coupe. My guess is registration and insurance will be required as the numbers grow. Follow the money trail.

 

[Matt Gruber]

Thanks guys! keep the comments coming!
seat is over 25" at the highest point, but they didn't question that.
pedals will be a problem. might be easier to get an e-bike.

i'm thinking Mongoose cx24v450
or similar.

i'd like to put direct dork pedals on the front! but that is hard also.

 

[TylerDurden]

This is a mug's game, hence my strong advice to get a lawyer...

The portion: "scooter or similar device" gives the state all they need to secure a guilty decision from a magistrate or judge.

A lawyer may know of a deal or technical element that can turn this around. A good lawyer usually can contact the prosecutor and get the charge revised to something easily handled. You really want a civil infraction, as opposed to a misdemeanor (criminal offense).

A tricky issue may arise if it is declared a motor vehicle: In some states it is a criminal offense to operate a MV without insurance. Then you could have two strikes; registration and insurance.


Talk to a lawyer. They are not all bad.

What's the difference between a dead snake in the road and a dead lawyer in the road?

There are skid-marks before the snake.


8)

 

[Mathurin]

Well, it's a brushed motor right?

How about adding pedals running a small PM brushed motor, connected with diodes to the real one, or something. So you could make the bike move with that, and it could put it somewhere out of the way, maybe using folding pedals even.

http://www.electriccyclery.com/catalog/montague-folding-pedals-p-170.html

 

[Instant Karma]

I live in Oregon, not Florida, but that 25 inch seat height could be a problem for just about every recumbent. The seat on my delta trike is under 20", but it is still higher than the seat in my Honda Civic Coupe. My guess is registration and insurance will be required as the numbers grow. Follow the money trail.

I guess that seat height requirement effectively eliminates the
KMX 3 wheeler from being legal, at least if Florida lol
The only thing the dude with the violation may try is to claim a handicap of some sort and that's why he was riding the pedalless scooter. Worth a try, might get some sympathy from the judge.

 

[Matt Gruber]

DMV says i can cart it to Deland(special determination there) and try to register it.
Doubtful, no headlamp, tail lamp.
First I will call and ask about it,
if they will give me a letter saying why it can't be registered as is,
i can present that to a judge, hoping he will throw it out or reduce to non-criminal.

i also may call my car ins. and ask if they would drop me or ? for this if found guilty.
if yes, then i really have to get a lawyer.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

And so it begins-a
Needles & pins-a
The next coupla lines might be suitable too. :x

Might I suggest making a sticky for these kind of tickets as they start to come in?


Bocadude at the PA has talked at length about the difficulty in registering an ebike in FLA. Importers with fully compliant scooters have found it impossible because the DMV wants crash testing & bunch of other stuf that's an economic disincentive for a small volume supplier. So if he's telling the truth you may as well forget pursuing registration.

Also forget about thinking that if you can't register it therefore you're free to ride off into the sunset. I've made this point b4, that everyone keeps looking on the sunny side of the law. The legal provisions seem to function as permissions of what's allowed on the road, not the other way round. I'm not a legal scholar & would love it if someone who knows more about it can explain why the law functions that way, or if there's a loophole there.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding some of posts correctly suggesting showing up in court with pedals tacked on or some other change after the fact, but you don't want to go down that road at all. Perjury or contempt of court are serious criminal offences that you don't want to risk for 120 bucks. Same goes for a lawyer. Go for your free half hour of legal advice just for the education, but locally, the fee requiring a lawyer make a court appearance with you regardless of the offence, prices start at $3500.

Your best & only bet is to be humble to try & escape notice. Talk to the DA if he's willing to drop the fine a few bucks in exchange for a guilty plea, (down to an even hundred sould be a gimme), explain that your bike doesn't go over 20mph & promise that you'll have pedals on it from now on & hope for the best. If you come off all indignant they can hit you with soo much more you'll be gasping for air. First no insurance offence around here is $4500, then start adding all the equipment violations, that is if you make them want to.

 

[BiGH]

coming from a law background - i can say get representation with experience.

Also talk to the prosecutor (if thats the DA, a police prosecutor or whatever).

Ebikes, custom cars, home made cars/bikes are all major problem areas. If you built your ebike you might be able to get it registered as a home build vechicle - and hence not requiring crash testing. They're making it dificult :s

regarding registration, It could be worse - there could be people in your government pushing for ALL push bikes to be registered!!!?!?!

I would suggest - go shine up your ride, tidy it up make it look as professional as possible - take pictures of the ebike, and go have a chat with the DA (or whomever). Take the pictures with you and try to point out that you thought it was classed as a bicycle or it was an innocent mistake.

Best of luck. The whole of the forums are behind you on this one

Did you get a citation?
did it have anything written on it? (like aledged speed you were travelling?)
any more information you care to give us.

 

[patrick_mahoney]

I found this to be interesting.

http://countygovt.brevard.fl.us/saweb/rapsheet/rs_09_02.pdf

You could have an "electric personal assistive mobility device" - covered by Florida Statute 316.003 (83). Applicable section highlighted in red for ease of locating it. Clearly this is a "Segway" amendment and since it's so clearly for Segway's... the bit that possibly doesn't apply to your vehicle is the sole phrase "self-balancing". But two wheel vehicles are inherently self-balancing when they are moving due to centripetal force (they don't fall over... they self-balance), I could argue that you are covered.

 

[knightmb]

Thanks guys! keep the comments coming!
seat is over 25" at the highest point, but they didn't question that.
pedals will be a problem. might be easier to get an e-bike.

i'm thinking Mongoose cx24v450
or similar.

i'd like to put direct dork pedals on the front! but that is hard also.

Got any pictures or links of the "illegal" e-bike in question?

 

[Lowell]

And this is why I started with a normal looking mountain bike and kept the crank/pedals. Even if they don't do anything, I can still spin them around if I see a cop.

 

[Stevil_Knevil]

Hey Matt,

Sorry to hear about your dumb-luck with the coppers.

Been there..

http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/display.asp?dismode=article&artid=79

For whatever it's worth, I beat the rap without ever having to go to court.

One impassioned letter to the judge.. and the case was dismissed, "In the interest of justice.."


- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ride Bikes. Drive Culture. -S

 

[Lowell]

I don't know how the ticket system works where you are, but I always wait the maximum time on the ticket (30 days here) and then deliver my notice of dispute. When the court papers arrive, I wait until 2 weeks before the date and then tell them I can't make it due to work/travel plans/whatever. They will then reschedule another date that fits the cop's schedule. Sometimes the ticket will just dissapear, never to be heard from again 8)

If it finally makes it to court, have a good explanation ready...

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

I found this to be interesting.

http://countygovt.brevard.fl.us/saweb/rapsheet/rs_09_02.pdf

You could have an "electric personal assistive mobility device" - covered by Florida Statute 316.003 (83). Applicable section highlighted in red for ease of locating it. Clearly this is a "Segway" amendment and since it's so clearly for Segway's... the bit that possibly doesn't apply to your vehicle is the sole phrase "self-balancing". But two wheel vehicles are inherently self-balancing when they are moving due to centripetal force (they don't fall over... they self-balance), I could argue that you are covered.

No, a bicycle is classed as dynamically balanced.
Plus Matt's bike has tandem wheels.

Bring back the first jpg you had, I thought I saw a possible loophole, something about combination of electric & human power. 1+0 (all motor + no human) is a combination, but it would need to be couched in an appropriate persuasive legalese that's beyond me. Even then it's a hail mary longshot. I've found that logic like truth has no place in the courtroom.

 

[Matt Gruber]

Stevil
WOW, what was so convincing? I'm real confused today

.

knight- pics in sig.

 

[Mathurin]

Oh, I didn't mean to pass the bike as if it was legal at the time but a way to make it legal for the future.