got a criminal citation- e-bikes are unknown in FL court!

[Matt Gruber]

cop said i can't make it legal.
it HAS to be built from the factory w/pedals

 

[Lowell]

cop said i can't make it legal.
it HAS to be built from the factory w/pedals

Are there limits on how much you can modify the frame? Since the serial number is on the bottom bracket, I'd be busy with the plasma cutter and TIG welder, Chop Cut Rebuild style. :lol:
Keep the paperwork for the doner bottom bracket and show up in court with the bike. After you beat the ticket, tell the cop to go catch some real criminals.


A friend of mine was pulled over for doing a 3 block wheelie on his motorcycle, and received a ticket for 'undue care and attention'. When the court date came around, he argued that to wheelie a motorcycle for that distance would require a great deal of care and attention, and the judge agreed. The ticket was thrown out on that technicality.

 

[TylerDurden]

cop said i can't make it legal.
it HAS to be built from the factory w/pedals

A friend of mine was pulled over for doing a 3 block wheelie on his motorcycle, and received a ticket for 'undue care and attention'. When the court date came around, he argued that to wheelie a motorcycle for that distance would require a great deal of care and attention, and the judge agreed. The ticket was thrown out on that technicality.

These points are exactly why a lawyer is a GOOD idea. Inconsistancies and technicalities are how a lawyer can make the system work for you.

I AM NOT A LAWYER.
That said; I would ask my lawyer if it is significant that the citation says: "electric bicycle", and also says: "Style - MOP" (moped) and also says: "no pedals". The laws do not specify pedals, just "combination of human and motorized" propulsion.

As comments above indicate, they have a wide margin of discretion. They can easily hang you with "scooter or similar" phrasing.

Speak to a lawyer. A criminal charge can screw up your insurance, your credit rating, your employability, on and on and on...

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

cop said i can't make it legal.
it HAS to be built from the factory w/pedals

That is just the cop's opinion, not necessarily a legal one. It may turn out to be correct, but I wouldn't just take his word for it. Sounds like he's blowing smoke. Factory pedals? Get real. Cops constanly BS the public either knowingly or not to make their job easier. They too interpet the law sunny side up but from their viewpoint.

The only interpretation that counts is a judge's & you won't know that until you roll the dice. That's the risk you take going all the way. You may get a grumpy ultra-conservative judge who could enter a directive that could order you to not ever put the bike back on the street & risk contempt. Or get a liberal environmentally aware judge that may suggest to the cop he spend his time on more important matters. And anything in between.

I think the fact that it looks like a motorcycle may work against you which is why I would do a quickie in&out deal with the DA. See if he's amenable to reducing the charge to some non-criminal traffic violation in exchage for a quick resolution with a guilty plea. At least make the attempt to feel him out to get a sense of how serious they take this sort of thing. Defiantly get several legal opinions but I expect this issue doesn't come up very often, so they may not have a whole lot of precedent to base their opinion on. Probably refer to judgments involving gas-fired mopeds.

 

[Mathurin]

Maybe try reading Dale Carnagie's "How to win freinds and influence people"

Here's the book in a nutshell:
http://www.westegg.com/unmaintained/carnegie/win-friends.html


Whatever route you choose, good luck...

 

[Matt Gruber]

u guys have great ideas!
win or lose they won't forget me i'm going to relax for now and take this all in.
i left a voice mail that DMV says again it can not be registered. in 3 yrs, 3 calls they NEVER ask if it has pedals.
i may offer to demonstrate it moves on human power, my feet on the ground. who knows?
NO court date yet.

 

[Matt Gruber]

FL law
e-bike: HUMAN POWER w/e-helper motor.
NOTHING ABOUT PEDALS!
I move it all the time on human power, especially in stores, to go a few feet to get an item i want. i use my feet like a kick scooter.
.

cop says it is a moped, which FL law says it MUST have pedals.
BUT it lacks pedals! Mopeds can go 30 mph, e-bikes 20 mph.
.
Duh! its an e-bike!
If it had pedals, THEY WOULD STILL TICKET ME AS MOPEDS REQUIRE REGISTRATION!
wow!

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

If I recall, their scooter definition said it can't have a seat & must stand up.
They got their (b)asses covered I'm sure. That's why I always point out for people like 'safe' who think all that matters is the power & speed limit that there's more to it than that. Not only pedals are required but brake activated motor cutout, throttle deadman return spring; bunch of little stuf, any one of which if lacking cuts you loose from from protection of the ebike provision.

I say again, they can be nasty if they want to be. Discretion is the better part of valour & encourage you to reconsider a confrontational approach. You're not gonna change the world over this.

 

[Matt Gruber]

Nothing in e-bike section requires standing up. no pedals either. lots of fine print, for sure i could lose or be railroaded.
However, the law is on my side, at least i can make a STRONG argument based on the actual LAW.
I was very polite, yet firm, on my voice mail message informing them that DMV will not allow registration of a ELECTRIC MOTOCROSS BIKE (title on box) sold at wal-mart

 

[Matt Gruber]

click on link in next post,
for e-bike law 316.003(02)

 

[TylerDurden]

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/Safety/ped_bike/laws/ped_bike_bikeLaws1.htm

 

[Matt Gruber]

thanks tyler! (i got dizzy lol)
.
guys, let's play mean but honest judge and pick 316.003(2) apart.

 

[CGameProgrammer]

I was very polite, yet firm, on my voice mail message informing them that DMV will not allow registration of a ELECTRIC MOTOCROSS BIKE (title on box) sold at wal-mart

Speaking generally, if the state requires registration, and it won't register your vehicle, then that means your vehicle is simply not legal on public roads. For example, in the U.S., all four-wheeled vehicles fall into this category unless they get safety-tested and approved first, so go-karts, ATVs, etc., are illegal to drive on public roads and always will be. I know yours isn't four-wheeled but I'm just speaking generally. It may be that your vehicle, without pedals connected to the wheels, simply cannot ever be ridden legally on public roads in Florida. In that case, the only solutions are either not to ride it on public roads, or reconnect some pedals, chain, and sprockets.

 

[Matt Gruber]

don't be shy, there is no need to speak generally.

did u read 316.003? it is very specific

 

[Matt Gruber]

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/Safety/ped_bike/laws/ped_bike_bikeLaws1.htm

quick to load, a few posts above for live link

contains 316.003(2)
e-bike law

 

[Matt Gruber]

i am sorry, that link went wrong.
if u click on chapter 316 it helps but is different page, but has same bike law at top. PITA

just google
fl law 316.003(2)

thanks to all for helping!

 

[Matt Gruber]

they have NO case. Here is why(summary)
STATE UNIFORM TRAFFIC CONTROL LAW
Chapter 316
(77) Moped MUST have PEDALS.
up to 30 mph
under 50cc
up to 2 brake hp
must conform to federal safety standards TITLE 49, 316.46

under state law it is NOT a Moped, NO PEDALS, etc.

If they claim it is a Motorcycle
It isn't:
1. no VIN
2. Sold at walmart as a "Electric Motocross Bike"

So since it can't be these 2, the only thing left is BICYCLE as defined in 316.003(2). Pedals are not specified as required under FL law. Must be "human powered w/helper motor"
The cop ordered me to push it home, and therefore observed it being human powered.

I studied the laws for over 3 hours, i really can't expect u guys to do so much work. But, i am ready for it, should a District Attorney try to prosecute.

 

[Matt Gruber]

knight
i asked him to mail me a copy of the law.
he thinks it COULD be registered
but it can't it's a toy.
fine $120 will plead not guilty, its a TOY cant be reg.
u can google FL STATUTE 320.02-1
i cant read pdf, i just gave up for now

Ok, found it thanks. It's basically the statute for "No Motor Vehicle Registration" which has a $120 fine.

I think even without pedals you are in the clear. The laws doesn't say you need pedals, only that it must stay under 20 MPH, have 2 wheels, and the rider must be over the age of 16. So if you are 16 or older and were doing 18.6 MPH (even better if it's written on the ticket) then you are in the clear. Take it to court, request that court fees be waived, throw the law book at them and walk out with a smile, better yet, ride away on your electric bicycle
Florida State Law Link

Florida State law says:

(2) BICYCLE.--Every vehicle propelled solely by human power, and every motorized bicycle propelled by a combination of human power and an electric helper motor capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of not more than 20 miles per hour on level ground upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels, and including any device generally recognized as a bicycle though equipped with two front or two rear wheels. The term does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position or a scooter or similar device. No person under the age of 16 may operate or ride upon a motorized bicycle.

knight, very good analysis , and way faster than me

 

[Lessss]

The term does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position or a scooter or similar device.




Built from a small motorcycle! Weighs 132# ! Only 60" long!
Might want to reword your webpage before your day in court.

 

[Matt Gruber]

Done!
.
316.82 Motorized scooter: Any vehicle not having a seat.....can't go over 30mph.

Lessss
i'll put your sign on mine too! LOL

ELECTRIC BICYCLE
FL law 316.003.2

 

[Matt Gruber]

PLANSTAGE 1, attempt to prevent court summons)
call PD and talk, or leave voice message to Chief of Police:

I received a citation #5226, No Registration under 320.02-1
Electric bicycle with no pedals.

I want to inform you that my electric bike does not need registration as it is a bicycle under 316.003-2

This bicycle law does not require pedals. The officer ordered me to walk my bike home, so she saw it move under human power, as specified in 316.003-2.

I believe the officer made an error, and I would appreciate it if you would correct this so I can resume riding my bike.

Thank You.(phone #)

WHAT do u guys think? should i make the call? improve it? how? THANKS!

 

[TylerDurden]

Matt,

This is not likely an isolated case. The cops are seeing people using scooters and go-peds on the road more and more. Tickets are being issued.

The question you need to explore is: "how are these cases being handled?". Do you know any cops?

You can go to the courthouse/legal library etc. and try to find out yourself. (Do not ride your bike to get there.)

I strongly advise you to seek legal counsel.

The best outcome is for you to get a decision that determines your rig is a bicycle... then you can continue to ride it.

While your lawyer is chasing-down prior cases, I suggest you get some human-drivetrain installed ASAP. So IF you have to stand-up, your lawer can show the court that a minor oversight has been corrected and the charges should be dismissed. (like the cases involving burned-out taillights)

Get. A. Lawer.

 

[Matt Gruber]

cancel that idea.
i just spent 45 minutes talking to a former court clerk.
VERY helpful, all the in's and out's

details later.

 

[Matt Gruber]

as it is a criminal case, it goes to State Attorney, Deland, ~20 miles away.

Advice i got:
write to SA and case should(could) be dropped.

Good: cop would have to leave town to appear, and
i leaked the correct statue to her co-worker. She has time to study it.
So, legally, the facts are with me and she likely will accept that imo(i hope). Anyway, it's up to the SA. I'll write him a brief.(i took business law in college)

 

[Reid Welch]

I came to read this thread for the first time only yesterday.
Now I'm glad you have an end in sight without bleeding $$$ for a lawyer.

You'll end up with some paperwork to copy, carry and show to the next errant cop who has no better donuts to dunk.

----------

Tell, me Matt, are cops in your area all fat and toad-like?
Here in Miami, I'll say that four out of five cops put Porky Pig to shame.


The other week I chanced upon an off-duty cop getting out of his squad car with a lady friend. The cop was about my age, about fifty.
What a shock. He was fat. He was buff like a Chuck Norris. And no spring chicken. Just a tough looking hombre.

This was a parking lot scene.
I laughed out loud, I really did, and I shouted at him, "HEY!
You can't really be a cop"

(joshing a stranger, sure, why not?).

I meant to surprise him, and I did.

"What do you mean?" he said as he turned, curious, not angry.

"I mean, that you aren't thirty or fifty pounds overweight. You're in shape like no cops I see."

"It's too bad isn't it? There used to be department regulations against overweight. Not anymore.
The department dropped those rules a few years ago.
They had too many legal challenges coming in from fat cops with lawyers suing for their conditions, saying it's the result of job related stress."

(I paraphrase---that was the gist of it).

I wished him well. If more cops could manage stress at the gym instead of by eating Twinkies on the job, maybe more of them could be like that cop I met in that parking lot.

Parting words: "If more cops looked like you there'd be fewer active street thugs. They'd respect the fact that you could jump out of the car
and damn well run them down on foot."

That cop was all lean muscle. By contrast most every other cop in Miami looks like leaf lard in a blue potato sack.

I hope one of them reads this and passes it around.

Fat on a cop kills respect.
I have a pet theory, based on personal experience,
that logy fat cops tend more to abuse citizens minding their own affairs
instead of tending to the harder work of dealing with street crime.