nutnspecial
10 MW
peace . . . way more important things than money
[youtube]jYbWsJQmMss[/youtube]
[youtube]jYbWsJQmMss[/youtube]
Greenmachine vs Cellman OT arguments
- Thread starter Green Machine
- Start date
- Status
You thought I was in this for the money? [edit: I am being paid now for my writing, but...I wrote some of my best stuff for three years with no pay, or any expectation of ever being paid]
No judgement on my part. It is my failure to show that my writing was not as a shill. I will try to do better someday...later.
Mundo
100 W
I seem to remember a similar feud/quarrel with ampedbikes.com (Danny) and ebikekit.com (Jason), At times it was humorous, but for the most part, it was very sad.
Danny's been out of business for a while now....I think he almost lost his house funding his business. It can be risky!
It's an exciting time for e-bikes, the products get more creative and better all the time.
The future of EVs, e-bikes and battery tech is basically unstoppable, the vendors that succeed, won't be overly greedy and offer great customer support. Look at Amazon.
I might suggest, vendors stop the bickering and offer us the future!
Danny's been out of business for a while now....I think he almost lost his house funding his business. It can be risky!
It's an exciting time for e-bikes, the products get more creative and better all the time.
The future of EVs, e-bikes and battery tech is basically unstoppable, the vendors that succeed, won't be overly greedy and offer great customer support. Look at Amazon.
I might suggest, vendors stop the bickering and offer us the future!
nutnspecial
10 MW
No, not you. I guess everybody can be and is at times, but it seems LUNA/eric is hungry, to the point he is outplayed by EM3, in only imagined defense.
The point is, this seems all defense over money. Just our egos and what we think we need, when it's rarely ever money. And no worries SM, imo you're beyond reproach from what I see, fwiw.
. . . .
Another thing- perhaps it's an inside slap to mention 'new friends' on Pauls part, but Eric you called your own self out man. And if you're not willing to do the time, don't do the crime. If you did a 'crime' and wanna reference it yourself, then own up to who you're worried about and be a man- if not, then what the hell is the bitchin for? This seems to be the childish flavor of most of these posts.
cell_man
100 kW
Ron,
let me make 1 thing absolutely clear, in case I have been in any way ambiguous. I feel no animosity towards Ron and I do not think he has personally done anything particularly out of line.
I have always said that Ron is just about the nicest guy I have ever had the pleasure to meet and I am still am extremely grateful for all the nice articles he wrote about my little operation. I do not WANT electricbike.com to remove all links to em3ev, all I ever said was that I would not care/resist if they were removed. When the threat of having links pulled was put on me, I immediately said as much. I'm through with being held to ransom and being told that if it wasn't for a few articles, I wouldn't be where I am today. No doubt the additional exposure helped, but I think my own hard work and drive to do innovate and do right by everyone, also played a major role.
The only thing I ever said that could in some way be seen as a criticism of you (Ron) personally, was that you could not see things from my perspective, when you asked me to link to electricbike.com, when it is basically a channel to Luna (there is a store button, and there are numerous links to Luna, it is silly to suggest anything otherwise), it is just too much and I was a little unhappy with the whole Luna thing at the time, when I was asked.
I mean Luna went from zero to the self proclaimed leading supplier, in the space of a year, on happy customers and good service alone? Of course they didn't, they did it by being constantly pumped up by electricbike, then electric-fatbike (now electricbike-blog) and by being the cheapest (sorry, most reasonably priced) domestic supplier in the USA (and letting everyone know that, in no uncertain terms, publicly shaming those that dared charge more). There is nothing actually wrong with doing that, but please do not try to tell me there is anything particularly admirable or selfless about it either.
Check out the traffic to various sites, by using this link:
https://www.similarweb.com/
If you do so, you will see what traffic I get, what Luna gets, what electricbike gets and also how some of the companies that have been especially targeted by Luna have been hit over recent months (not going to spell them out, but they are 1 of the companies that supposedly benefits from Electricbike.com, in your list). Bearing in mind that electricbike.com gets over 400,000 hits per months, Luna gets ~130,000 hits and I get a little over 50,000 hits per month (which is not bad and I am very happy for). 335 people hit a link to EM3ev.com from EB.com, out of over 400,000. I wonder how many hit a link to Luna in that same period? I need to to add a link from my store, to my main competitor (that supplies me no products), I have links to Ebikes.ca and california-ebike, as they are suppliers of mine. So because EB.com send ~0.08% of their traffic, to EM3ev, i need to return the favour? Like people, that have heard of EM3ev, haven't already heard of Luna? Come on, lets be serious here.... Luna has quite enough traffic and have taken quite enough of my US sales (and plenty of others too, don't believe all this big pie baloney), without me helping them further. I am grown-up now, I can accept such a thing as competition and I need to react, but come, I'm expected to link to my main competitor too?
Competition is fair enough and I have made efforts to improve many things. Those things may not be apparent now, but they will become apparent as the months pass. The only plots I have been planning, is to improve my products (which i have done in leaps and bounds), improve my media presence (coming) and get my new website live (that is oh soooo close). Sure, some people talk in private and we don't particularly appreciate some things we have experienced, or what we see, but that is not underhand or sinister IMPO.
Luna can go on doing what they are doing, I have no great problem with it and there isn't a whole lot I can do about it either. I can only work hard, and hopefully provide an alternative viewpoint, alternative media content, and improve every aspect of my business and products, but please do not get on the moral high ground and lecture me and others, that we are the bad guys and EB.com/Luna is all sweetness and light because they are cheaper, or because they mention some others on their info site.
If we want some context, this thread came from 2 threads, that GM came into and basically ranted at me (fairly unprovoked IMPO), they are here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=83045
but the other, I can no longer find.
The context around the Satiator discussion (as far as i understand it), is that it is not well suited to "jumping" a shark pack (re-setting the BMS, as the BMS are liable to trip when mounted onto the slider apparently, due to no power switch, therefore there is an in-rush when the contacts meets). The satiator doesn't send charge voltage to the output, unless a battery is detected (I guess that could be a UL requirement, but no matter, it is a reasonable safety feature). A link to the procedure:
http://lunacycle.com/jumping-your-luna-shark-battery-pack/
Thanks
Paul
let me make 1 thing absolutely clear, in case I have been in any way ambiguous. I feel no animosity towards Ron and I do not think he has personally done anything particularly out of line.
I have always said that Ron is just about the nicest guy I have ever had the pleasure to meet and I am still am extremely grateful for all the nice articles he wrote about my little operation. I do not WANT electricbike.com to remove all links to em3ev, all I ever said was that I would not care/resist if they were removed. When the threat of having links pulled was put on me, I immediately said as much. I'm through with being held to ransom and being told that if it wasn't for a few articles, I wouldn't be where I am today. No doubt the additional exposure helped, but I think my own hard work and drive to do innovate and do right by everyone, also played a major role.
The only thing I ever said that could in some way be seen as a criticism of you (Ron) personally, was that you could not see things from my perspective, when you asked me to link to electricbike.com, when it is basically a channel to Luna (there is a store button, and there are numerous links to Luna, it is silly to suggest anything otherwise), it is just too much and I was a little unhappy with the whole Luna thing at the time, when I was asked.
I mean Luna went from zero to the self proclaimed leading supplier, in the space of a year, on happy customers and good service alone? Of course they didn't, they did it by being constantly pumped up by electricbike, then electric-fatbike (now electricbike-blog) and by being the cheapest (sorry, most reasonably priced) domestic supplier in the USA (and letting everyone know that, in no uncertain terms, publicly shaming those that dared charge more). There is nothing actually wrong with doing that, but please do not try to tell me there is anything particularly admirable or selfless about it either.
Check out the traffic to various sites, by using this link:
https://www.similarweb.com/
If you do so, you will see what traffic I get, what Luna gets, what electricbike gets and also how some of the companies that have been especially targeted by Luna have been hit over recent months (not going to spell them out, but they are 1 of the companies that supposedly benefits from Electricbike.com, in your list). Bearing in mind that electricbike.com gets over 400,000 hits per months, Luna gets ~130,000 hits and I get a little over 50,000 hits per month (which is not bad and I am very happy for). 335 people hit a link to EM3ev.com from EB.com, out of over 400,000. I wonder how many hit a link to Luna in that same period? I need to to add a link from my store, to my main competitor (that supplies me no products), I have links to Ebikes.ca and california-ebike, as they are suppliers of mine. So because EB.com send ~0.08% of their traffic, to EM3ev, i need to return the favour? Like people, that have heard of EM3ev, haven't already heard of Luna? Come on, lets be serious here.... Luna has quite enough traffic and have taken quite enough of my US sales (and plenty of others too, don't believe all this big pie baloney), without me helping them further. I am grown-up now, I can accept such a thing as competition and I need to react, but come, I'm expected to link to my main competitor too?
Competition is fair enough and I have made efforts to improve many things. Those things may not be apparent now, but they will become apparent as the months pass. The only plots I have been planning, is to improve my products (which i have done in leaps and bounds), improve my media presence (coming) and get my new website live (that is oh soooo close). Sure, some people talk in private and we don't particularly appreciate some things we have experienced, or what we see, but that is not underhand or sinister IMPO.
Luna can go on doing what they are doing, I have no great problem with it and there isn't a whole lot I can do about it either. I can only work hard, and hopefully provide an alternative viewpoint, alternative media content, and improve every aspect of my business and products, but please do not get on the moral high ground and lecture me and others, that we are the bad guys and EB.com/Luna is all sweetness and light because they are cheaper, or because they mention some others on their info site.
If we want some context, this thread came from 2 threads, that GM came into and basically ranted at me (fairly unprovoked IMPO), they are here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=83045
but the other, I can no longer find.
The context around the Satiator discussion (as far as i understand it), is that it is not well suited to "jumping" a shark pack (re-setting the BMS, as the BMS are liable to trip when mounted onto the slider apparently, due to no power switch, therefore there is an in-rush when the contacts meets). The satiator doesn't send charge voltage to the output, unless a battery is detected (I guess that could be a UL requirement, but no matter, it is a reasonable safety feature). A link to the procedure:
http://lunacycle.com/jumping-your-luna-shark-battery-pack/
Thanks
Paul
cell_man
100 kW
nutspecial said:No, not you. I guess everybody can be and is at times, but it seems LUNA/eric is hungry, to the point he is outplayed by EM3, in only imagined defense.
The point is, this seems all defense over money. Just our egos and what we think we need, when it's rarely ever money. And no worries SM, imo you're beyond reproach from what I see, fwiw.
. . . .
Another thing- perhaps it's an inside slap to mention 'new friends' on Pauls part, but Eric you called your own self out man. And if you're not willing to do the time, don't do the crime. If you did a 'crime' and wanna reference it yourself, then own up to who you're worried about and be a man- if not, then what the hell is the bitchin for? This seems to be the childish flavor of most of these posts.
Exactly!
Frankly, i have better things to do and I am not such a sneaky MoFo to take pics of anyone, or cause anyone problems in their personal relationships. I was kind of pissed when someone (not just anybody, but somebody that there have been some issues with) talks publicly about me like that, for a not very good reason and in a very personal and nasty way). If there was something to say, it could have been said a whole lot better IMPO. Certain people take great pleasure in broadcasting to the World that they are how much cheaper than another supplier (in their listings), I make a small comment in a small post on a forum and all hell breaks loose. I try to offer reasonable advice on choosing a battery (fairly small battery) for a 30A kit (fairly high power kit), and I get more of the same (and I was not even saying that a certain battery is unsuitable, it was just general advice).
Nobody even knew WTF I was talking about (might guess), but then I'm being painted as this terrible guy for having a little ambiguous dig (but actually saying nothing). If it were me in that situation, I'd be tempted to say nothing, maybe STFU and hope it all died down. I certainly had no desire to continue with this discussion, not until I was made aware of the continued posting and felt I should rally come back with some sort of response. All i have done is react IMPO, I do not feel I was the instigator in any of this (but i could have ignored it) and generally I have been calm and tried to not make it too personal.
There is nothing wrong with money and like most, I'd like to have more, but I can assure you, i could have probably put my efforts elsewhere in this business and made a whole lot more money, without having to do as much work as I have done. I'm sure I could let others supply me packs, but frankly I always wanted to do my own stuff (much to the consternation of my Chinese wife, that is expecting our first child, any day now), buy all these crazy machines, do everything by ourselves, learn all this new stuff and make our lives so complicated. However, I don't regret a thing and even my wife can see that taking the route we took/have taken, was the right thing in the long term (a certain man I know and really respect in this business, said he never regretted buying a machine and I tend to agree) and I am very happy that I am finally getting to a place where we can now start to make batteries in the way that I envisaged, maybe 2.5-3 years ago.
My number 1 focus on my batteries, has been to make the safest battery I can and after that, make it presentable, be robust/weather-proof, be of any shape/form (within reason and within certain constraints) and for it to be possible to make them in moderate quantities and for a reasonable price. I do not want to dominate anything, or be the leading anything. So long as enough customers appreciate our products, to keep us busy and moving forward in a steady fashion, that is plenty enough for me/us. Growing very fast, when you actually have to make stuff, is difficult to do, you can't just snap your fingers and double your capacity, it takes big effort, more staff etc.
I do wish that certain people would not persist with all this, and I really do not think it is doing them any favours to do so. I will stop responding, when the slights and accusations towards me cease. Until then, I will be forced to put over my opinion and present my experiences and the facts of the matter as I see them
Thanks
Paul
teslanv
1 MW
I deal with a boatload (bad pun) of customer service emails and our sales are a miniscule fraction of either Eric or Paul's. It boggles my mind to imagine the time and energy you guys put into this aspect of your business. You both are masochistic ebike junkies.
This is how we vent, I think.
This is how we vent, I think.
Green Machine
100 kW
It's all good paul....
work on updating your website and releasing a new webdesign, and getting those machines gonig..... that sounds like a good plan. oh yes and cranking out that new baby It doesnt sound like you will have much time left for jousting with me so lets just chill
No reason to get in a pissing match....and i think we are both guilty of being too thin skinned.
we got a lot working against us....
Barent is right this is hard game and a lot of work.... no need to waste time sitting around here eating each other.
I think that the ES dealers are for the most part a great bunch...and i really want to see all the original dealers here succeed. I really hope that luna has been a postive influence... and everyone picks up their game and finds their place in fast growing world wide market dominated by huge players like amazon, ebay, alibabay and hobbyking.
I came in to this market because i saw the DIY segment as totally stagnant....sites werent updating, new product releases were slow etc....lprices were too high.
it a tough game thats for sure and its more than just getting a great site to link to you. And building a great site is more than having a good domain name or even one good writer. Google doesn't care about domain names anymore by the way.
I built electricbike.com from ground 0 with no intention of being paid.
I had a store on it for many years on the same domain as it is now ....you hit store and you would see a couple of lights, a few motors... a couple shitty t shirts... .and some j11772 connectors...... we didnt sale much amd nobody every complained once about electricbike.com having a store.
I am really proud of luna and my partner and i work like madmen to pull it off....and sacrificed everything fun in our life. We have a great team who busts ass as well....
i am sorry i made enemies along the way and i can be confrontational that for sure.... i cant help that there is no way certain dealers are not going to like us... i have accepted that and understand that.... Luna is my baby (also my puppy) and when defending her i can be like Poppa Bear. Also i am pretty competitive when proving a point.
The way to compete is to focus on your own game and make it better.... not try to bring me down.
ERIC
work on updating your website and releasing a new webdesign, and getting those machines gonig..... that sounds like a good plan. oh yes and cranking out that new baby
It doesnt sound like you will have much time left for jousting with me so lets just chill No reason to get in a pissing match....and i think we are both guilty of being too thin skinned.
we got a lot working against us....
Barent is right this is hard game and a lot of work.... no need to waste time sitting around here eating each other.
I think that the ES dealers are for the most part a great bunch...and i really want to see all the original dealers here succeed. I really hope that luna has been a postive influence... and everyone picks up their game and finds their place in fast growing world wide market dominated by huge players like amazon, ebay, alibabay and hobbyking.
I came in to this market because i saw the DIY segment as totally stagnant....sites werent updating, new product releases were slow etc....lprices were too high.
it a tough game thats for sure and its more than just getting a great site to link to you. And building a great site is more than having a good domain name or even one good writer. Google doesn't care about domain names anymore by the way.
I built electricbike.com from ground 0 with no intention of being paid.
I had a store on it for many years on the same domain as it is now ....you hit store and you would see a couple of lights, a few motors... a couple shitty t shirts... .and some j11772 connectors...... we didnt sale much amd nobody every complained once about electricbike.com having a store.
I am really proud of luna and my partner and i work like madmen to pull it off....and sacrificed everything fun in our life. We have a great team who busts ass as well....
i am sorry i made enemies along the way and i can be confrontational that for sure.... i cant help that there is no way certain dealers are not going to like us... i have accepted that and understand that.... Luna is my baby (also my puppy) and when defending her i can be like Poppa Bear. Also i am pretty competitive when proving a point.
The way to compete is to focus on your own game and make it better.... not try to bring me down.
ERIC
Lenk42602
10 kW
in the early days of this forum, the majority of members were collaborating and reporting about their e-bike developments and inventions, hard earned sweat equity.
a platform for the creative process to run its course
4 or 5 years ago, many of the new members arrived here looking merely to "obtain" (buy) a part, hub motor laced in wheel, whatever.
unlike real bricks an mortar retailing, virtual, the forum based retailing here is based on trusting a persona/brand that may or may not accurately represent the Real.
the fact that dealers are members, dealers are arguing publicly, employees for dealers are members and moderatoring, site owners are dealers, and admins, etc, etc, etc.,
-------->all of this, just decreases the integrity of the content on this site.
nothing has changed since I voiced this fact privately in the moderator lounge. in fact its gotten worse, and we are further from the path.
how is it any different than knightmb's attempt to commercialize this site by selling?
do any of you even remember forum member "xyster"? how about "Lowell"?the original hot rodder? crazy "reid"? "safe"?
retailing to your ebike "brothers", the "electric revolution". only a select few actually walking that talk. and they aint doing it on this forum....
once margins, risk, competition, all the other nonsense that goes along with trying to sell ebike stuff in this tight little space begins, it less about the community and more about self preservation.
a platform for the creative process to run its course
4 or 5 years ago, many of the new members arrived here looking merely to "obtain" (buy) a part, hub motor laced in wheel, whatever.
unlike real bricks an mortar retailing, virtual, the forum based retailing here is based on trusting a persona/brand that may or may not accurately represent the Real.
the fact that dealers are members, dealers are arguing publicly, employees for dealers are members and moderatoring, site owners are dealers, and admins, etc, etc, etc.,
-------->all of this, just decreases the integrity of the content on this site.
nothing has changed since I voiced this fact privately in the moderator lounge. in fact its gotten worse, and we are further from the path.
how is it any different than knightmb's attempt to commercialize this site by selling?
do any of you even remember forum member "xyster"? how about "Lowell"?the original hot rodder? crazy "reid"? "safe"?
retailing to your ebike "brothers", the "electric revolution". only a select few actually walking that talk. and they aint doing it on this forum....
once margins, risk, competition, all the other nonsense that goes along with trying to sell ebike stuff in this tight little space begins, it less about the community and more about self preservation.
I don't think that ANY of the mods (or owners) here show favoritism toward any of their employers or own businesses.
We are lucky on this forum that we have such good moderation with none of them showing an ounce of greed. To be honest, I don't think Justin would allow it.
We are lucky on this forum that we have such good moderation with none of them showing an ounce of greed. To be honest, I don't think Justin would allow it.
Ykick
1 GW
As a consumer, I appreciate both Paul and Eric and their fine products/services. Most of all I appreciate them going where few have been able to go before.
Sad to see things reaching this level of mid-slinging but unlike a few others' at least we know the “players” in this match.
Sad to see things reaching this level of mid-slinging but unlike a few others' at least we know the “players” in this match.
eMax
100 W
Ykick said:
Sorry but I can only see mud-slinging from one side. Paul should not be made to defend the integrity of his products, and why he operates in China etc etc. Thats not on. As a dealer in Australia I have recently been subject to Lunas anti-competitive behavior and complete contempt for other dealers. He cannot support his products in Australia, but he sent a load here anyway. The BBSHD are extremely hard to support on a local level let alone trying to support from overseas.
Can't see where this is all going to end but I am extremely concerned by the misinformation being spread by Luna through their web domination across multiple channels. This is clearly bad for the industry and community.
cell_man
100 kW
I hardly read most of the crap in this thread, it just pissed me off too much to look at it. It escalated in the week prior to the birth of me and my wife's first Child and she turned 1 month, a couple of days back. I had intended to come back and address the lies (Eric's lies) when I had the inclination and energy to do so. This whole sorry situation has been thoroughly unpleasant, but you know what, I'm not letting it slide.
I just want to address a couple of things said by Ron. There are far worse things said by Eric, but I came back to this horrible mess and this was what I first noticed.
Sorry, but that is not true. There was an email sent (not initiated by me), that included Ron. Jason of EBK.com asked for all Links to be removed. Justin voiced his opinions/concerns in response (he did not say that he wanted links removed) and I said nothing. I don't mind sharing the email exchange, that seemed to later prompt talk of a conspiracy (https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/09/22/lunacycle-releases-their-50amp-bbshd-that-ive-been-testing-for-6-months-but-you-gotta-buy-the-whole-bike/), so people can make up their own minds, about just how much a of a conspiracy there was. I know Jason doesn't have a problem with anything he said (or with sharing the communications that led to the bad feelings), being made public. I do however feel a little uncomfortable revealing Justin's comments. Myself and Justin have hardly discussed this whole topic, we communicate occasionally and it is generally to do with Grin products (I am a dealer of Grin's products after all), or some possible future products.
Personally, I couldn't care less if you guys pulled every Link to EM3ev (I said as much to Eric months ago), but I didn't state I wanted that either. If your fellow blogger (and in recent months very pro-Luna) Karl, did the same, I'd be fine with that too. I have no desire to have any sort of link with the whole operation and I don't need a single thing, from any of you either. Nothing much has been said on EB.com, since I (quite rightfully IMPO) refused to link to EB.com and eb-blog.com, pretty much ceased to say much about EM3ev, around the time they became very pro-Luna, late last year.
Eric goes round telling people he made me rich, I even had someone I used to consider a friend, say that to me. You know what, to hell with that BS! Ron wrote a couple or 3 nice articles, years ago, that didn't cost anybody anything (and I was very appreciative of Ron and I did actually try to be accommodating to Eric when he approached me, regards buying some Mac motors in 2014). No doubt it didn't hurt with our sales and exposure (to have those articles written), but to make out I owe everything to Eric, is just nuts IMPO. It is also pretty insulting and those articles do not in any way excuse or justify what I have seen recently.
I can honestly, hand on heart say, that I have no problem, with competition and losing some sales/business, because maybe someone else/another company is doing something cooler, better, they have some kind of advantage (geographic for example) or whatever. This is just a simple fact of running a business, you can't expect the World to owe you a living. I do however have an issue with people that operate in a fairly underhand way (IMPO) and that THEN, they also start making nasty and unprovoked attacks on me and good people that I know (notice I don't call myself good, that is up to others to decide, not me).
In answer, to the first question, frankly no I don't like it at all. When you are the object of whatever the hell problem he has with me, it isn't a great place to be. BUT, you know what, I didn't choose to be here, and I am not about to cave into what has to be the most deluded, vindictive, jealous, nasty, unpleasant and manipulative individual, I have in my not so short life, had the displeasure to experience.
So basically, what you are saying, is that Eric is special (as of yet, I am yet to grasp exactly what is supposed to be so extremely special/talented about him) and that he has free reign to conduct himself however he chooses? We all just have to take the abuse, and listen to what he says in an unquestioning way, no matter if that is through private emails, or in public, no matter a post on ES, or an article that goes out on electricbike.com (which gets 400,000 plus hits a month), or if his new best pal Karl writes an unbiased article stating that there is an ongoing conspiracy (because 2 business owners expressed an opinion)? We need to read lies and misinformation, but we are not allowed to say anything, because we can't upset the great Eric, or he'll get angry and the WRATH will be unleashed?
You know what, I personally never saw this great, positive guy that you saw, and there are lots of others that I have spoken to, that experienced it first hand, that didn't see it either. It was bad enough before Luna, but now, things have escalated to a whole other level.... Sure, it can't be denied, that selling more Bafang motors than anyone else, is kind of impressive, but I can't help but think, that wouldn't/couldn't have have happened, if the info site (that you, SM, largely built up), wasn't turned into a sales channel, with aggressive pricing and aggressive marketing. Operating with a relatively low margin (not particularly different from mine, maybe even better than mine on many things), doesn't mean you have free reign to attack your competitors, and be a complete prick (but it does seem to get you a ticket, to behave in a rude/aggressive/antisocial ways, according to some around here it seems). I guess doing it from the USA makes it all ok? Unfortunately, I can't do that either. I can't come to the USA, form a Company and comply with local laws and hire local people, because, as was so rightly pointed out, I am a British Citizen (with God forbid, a CHINESE WIFE). It was after all, the suggestion that i may do just that at some time in the future, that largely brought this whole situation about....
If people see/observe/experience things and several or even many people form an opinion, that does not constitute a conspiracy (IMPO). If someone shares their experiences/communications/information that they may have, I also would not consider that to be a conspiracy. This supposed conspiracy that I guess I am supposedly a part of, is worse than Eric and his pals discussing it and publishing that article?
There is a thing called Karma. If you go round (regularly) being nasty and offensive to people, or go out looking for fights, you can't expect nothing but peace and love, to come back to you in return.
I just want to address a couple of things said by Ron. There are far worse things said by Eric, but I came back to this horrible mess and this was what I first noticed.
spinningmagnets said:
Sorry, but that is not true. There was an email sent (not initiated by me), that included Ron. Jason of EBK.com asked for all Links to be removed. Justin voiced his opinions/concerns in response (he did not say that he wanted links removed) and I said nothing. I don't mind sharing the email exchange, that seemed to later prompt talk of a conspiracy (https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/09/22/lunacycle-releases-their-50amp-bbshd-that-ive-been-testing-for-6-months-but-you-gotta-buy-the-whole-bike/), so people can make up their own minds, about just how much a of a conspiracy there was. I know Jason doesn't have a problem with anything he said (or with sharing the communications that led to the bad feelings), being made public. I do however feel a little uncomfortable revealing Justin's comments. Myself and Justin have hardly discussed this whole topic, we communicate occasionally and it is generally to do with Grin products (I am a dealer of Grin's products after all), or some possible future products.
Personally, I couldn't care less if you guys pulled every Link to EM3ev (I said as much to Eric months ago), but I didn't state I wanted that either. If your fellow blogger (and in recent months very pro-Luna) Karl, did the same, I'd be fine with that too. I have no desire to have any sort of link with the whole operation and I don't need a single thing, from any of you either. Nothing much has been said on EB.com, since I (quite rightfully IMPO) refused to link to EB.com and eb-blog.com, pretty much ceased to say much about EM3ev, around the time they became very pro-Luna, late last year.
Eric goes round telling people he made me rich, I even had someone I used to consider a friend, say that to me. You know what, to hell with that BS! Ron wrote a couple or 3 nice articles, years ago, that didn't cost anybody anything (and I was very appreciative of Ron and I did actually try to be accommodating to Eric when he approached me, regards buying some Mac motors in 2014). No doubt it didn't hurt with our sales and exposure (to have those articles written), but to make out I owe everything to Eric, is just nuts IMPO. It is also pretty insulting and those articles do not in any way excuse or justify what I have seen recently.
I can honestly, hand on heart say, that I have no problem, with competition and losing some sales/business, because maybe someone else/another company is doing something cooler, better, they have some kind of advantage (geographic for example) or whatever. This is just a simple fact of running a business, you can't expect the World to owe you a living. I do however have an issue with people that operate in a fairly underhand way (IMPO) and that THEN, they also start making nasty and unprovoked attacks on me and good people that I know (notice I don't call myself good, that is up to others to decide, not me).
spinningmagnets said:
In answer, to the first question, frankly no I don't like it at all. When you are the object of whatever the hell problem he has with me, it isn't a great place to be. BUT, you know what, I didn't choose to be here, and I am not about to cave into what has to be the most deluded, vindictive, jealous, nasty, unpleasant and manipulative individual, I have in my not so short life, had the displeasure to experience.
So basically, what you are saying, is that Eric is special (as of yet, I am yet to grasp exactly what is supposed to be so extremely special/talented about him) and that he has free reign to conduct himself however he chooses? We all just have to take the abuse, and listen to what he says in an unquestioning way, no matter if that is through private emails, or in public, no matter a post on ES, or an article that goes out on electricbike.com (which gets 400,000 plus hits a month), or if his new best pal Karl writes an unbiased article stating that there is an ongoing conspiracy (because 2 business owners expressed an opinion)? We need to read lies and misinformation, but we are not allowed to say anything, because we can't upset the great Eric, or he'll get angry and the WRATH will be unleashed?
You know what, I personally never saw this great, positive guy that you saw, and there are lots of others that I have spoken to, that experienced it first hand, that didn't see it either. It was bad enough before Luna, but now, things have escalated to a whole other level.... Sure, it can't be denied, that selling more Bafang motors than anyone else, is kind of impressive, but I can't help but think, that wouldn't/couldn't have have happened, if the info site (that you, SM, largely built up), wasn't turned into a sales channel, with aggressive pricing and aggressive marketing. Operating with a relatively low margin (not particularly different from mine, maybe even better than mine on many things), doesn't mean you have free reign to attack your competitors, and be a complete prick (but it does seem to get you a ticket, to behave in a rude/aggressive/antisocial ways, according to some around here it seems). I guess doing it from the USA makes it all ok? Unfortunately, I can't do that either. I can't come to the USA, form a Company and comply with local laws and hire local people, because, as was so rightly pointed out, I am a British Citizen (with God forbid, a CHINESE WIFE). It was after all, the suggestion that i may do just that at some time in the future, that largely brought this whole situation about....
If people see/observe/experience things and several or even many people form an opinion, that does not constitute a conspiracy (IMPO). If someone shares their experiences/communications/information that they may have, I also would not consider that to be a conspiracy. This supposed conspiracy that I guess I am supposedly a part of, is worse than Eric and his pals discussing it and publishing that article?
There is a thing called Karma. If you go round (regularly) being nasty and offensive to people, or go out looking for fights, you can't expect nothing but peace and love, to come back to you in return.
Green Machine
100 kW
Wow that is some serious personal attacks paul. i guess that would count as mud slinging to attack me as a person so badly?
I wonder how you know me so well? based on what? talking to who? Anybody who has ever meet me in person?
Amazing i have been able to function at all.... have many valuable relationships.... a wonderful fiance.... and be such a despicable person
And what have i done exactly to warrant all these personal attacks?
Compete with you? Yes i am allowed to compete here in the usa that is one of our usa values.... i dont expect my competition to like me much. You want to come to usa?ok then i will go to Australia or china or Europe.... i am allowed to say that. My point is why are you worried what i am doing here in the usa when you have the rest of the world? you are in china the ebike captital of the world...you can ship anywhere in the world illegally with impunity. You really think its a geographic disadvantage to be in china? Right next door to bafang no less.
I am a brand new dealer....just over year old .....like you said you have been doing this for 7 years.....and as i have said since the beginning ...you should stop whining and improve your own game instead of bring mine down.
You have thin skin...and you have never liked dealers (i heard before me it was lectric cycles you liked to rant about). And you forgot to include lectric in the group that you are commmunicating with.
Yeah i said stop whining behind my back.....to the press (incessant bad mouthing Luna me to karl until karl cut him off) to my suppliers... to my friends in china.....to my employees....to my dealers......to my competitors here in usa (who are your competitors too by the way) to Ron (Spinning magnets)..... do you want my fiances number so you can try to win her over? Convince her somehow how i wronged you. Pour on some of that paul charm and see how far it goes.
IT seems Luna is the #1 topic of conversation to anyone paul talks too and everyone i have heard mention it says there sick of hearing it and please paul move on. I have begged paul many times in email to please stop all the back stabbing...lets go back to being civil. Paul agrees with me lets move on and continues his rants.
The fact is pauls only idea on how to compete with luna is to tear luna down.....
I dont know why he cant update his website and his product line, or go around and get some seo of his own instead of complaining about all those lost links he got from all the whining.
And simplifying lunas success to the fact i own eb.com.... that is very disingenuous. Running a successful ebike business is a complex game... also i have been very lucky.
Its really uncool how you have acted Paul. And yeah now you are feeling a little karma...... I really like that things worked out the way they did and i did not fall on my face like you wanted and i did sale more bafangs than anyone.
But i heard you sold twice as much product this year than last year..... ( i got people on the inside too) .... so what is your problem really? First world problems i guess..... this part really mystifies me.
Lets just enjoy life enjoy your new baby and not continue to digress while the electric revolution might be near.
But thanks for coming out in the open instead of having your lackeys post for you.... i appreciate that.
Now i gotta get back to work........ i wont be posting much for now on. This is bad for everyone. But i am sick of people slamming me as a person. I dont know where all the personal attacks are coming from and you should really save those for somone you know. You dont know me and neither does anyone in the group your talking too.
I have lived a good life and dont have many regrets and believe there is a place in ebike heaven for me. ..there are many people on here who know me. and who have met me who have ridden ebikes with me.... i am truly passionate about ebikes and have spent a significant part of my life on es .... and not just as a seller..... i was a builder and a rider. I only became a seller to try to help this community and this industry which i saw as stagnant. i did a good job of kicking it in the butt i think.
I am so glad i did. and i have no regrets or hard feelings towards anyone. I really love doing this and i am proud of the company we have worked very hard to build.
I wonder how you know me so well? based on what? talking to who? Anybody who has ever meet me in person?
Amazing i have been able to function at all.... have many valuable relationships.... a wonderful fiance.... and be such a despicable person
And what have i done exactly to warrant all these personal attacks?
Compete with you? Yes i am allowed to compete here in the usa that is one of our usa values.... i dont expect my competition to like me much. You want to come to usa?ok then i will go to Australia or china or Europe.... i am allowed to say that. My point is why are you worried what i am doing here in the usa when you have the rest of the world? you are in china the ebike captital of the world...you can ship anywhere in the world illegally with impunity. You really think its a geographic disadvantage to be in china? Right next door to bafang no less.
I am a brand new dealer....just over year old .....like you said you have been doing this for 7 years.....and as i have said since the beginning ...you should stop whining and improve your own game instead of bring mine down.
You have thin skin...and you have never liked dealers (i heard before me it was lectric cycles you liked to rant about). And you forgot to include lectric in the group that you are commmunicating with.
Yeah i said stop whining behind my back.....to the press (incessant bad mouthing Luna me to karl until karl cut him off) to my suppliers... to my friends in china.....to my employees....to my dealers......to my competitors here in usa (who are your competitors too by the way) to Ron (Spinning magnets)..... do you want my fiances number so you can try to win her over? Convince her somehow how i wronged you. Pour on some of that paul charm and see how far it goes.
IT seems Luna is the #1 topic of conversation to anyone paul talks too and everyone i have heard mention it says there sick of hearing it and please paul move on. I have begged paul many times in email to please stop all the back stabbing...lets go back to being civil. Paul agrees with me lets move on and continues his rants.
The fact is pauls only idea on how to compete with luna is to tear luna down.....
I dont know why he cant update his website and his product line, or go around and get some seo of his own instead of complaining about all those lost links he got from all the whining.
And simplifying lunas success to the fact i own eb.com.... that is very disingenuous. Running a successful ebike business is a complex game... also i have been very lucky.
Its really uncool how you have acted Paul. And yeah now you are feeling a little karma...... I really like that things worked out the way they did and i did not fall on my face like you wanted and i did sale more bafangs than anyone.
But i heard you sold twice as much product this year than last year..... ( i got people on the inside too) .... so what is your problem really? First world problems i guess..... this part really mystifies me.
Lets just enjoy life enjoy your new baby and not continue to digress while the electric revolution might be near.
But thanks for coming out in the open instead of having your lackeys post for you.... i appreciate that.
Now i gotta get back to work........ i wont be posting much for now on. This is bad for everyone. But i am sick of people slamming me as a person. I dont know where all the personal attacks are coming from and you should really save those for somone you know. You dont know me and neither does anyone in the group your talking too.
I have lived a good life and dont have many regrets and believe there is a place in ebike heaven for me. ..there are many people on here who know me. and who have met me who have ridden ebikes with me.... i am truly passionate about ebikes and have spent a significant part of my life on es .... and not just as a seller..... i was a builder and a rider. I only became a seller to try to help this community and this industry which i saw as stagnant. i did a good job of kicking it in the butt i think.
I am so glad i did. and i have no regrets or hard feelings towards anyone. I really love doing this and i am proud of the company we have worked very hard to build.
cell_man said:I hardly read most of the crap in this thread, it just pissed me off too much to look at it. It escalated in the week prior to the birth of me and my wife's first Child and she turned 1 month, a couple of days back. I had intended to come back and address the lies (Eric's lies) when I had the inclination and energy to do so. This whole sorry situation has been thoroughly unpleasant, but you know what, I'm not letting it slide.
I just want to address a couple of things said by Ron. There are far worse things said by Eric, but I came back to this horrible mess and this was what I first noticed.
spinningmagnets said:
Sorry, but that is not true. There was an email sent (not initiated by me), that included Ron. Jason of EBK.com asked for all Links to be removed. Justin voiced his opinions/concerns in response (he did not say that he wanted links removed) and I said nothing. I don't mind sharing the email exchange, that seemed to later prompt talk of a conspiracy (https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/09/22/lunacycle-releases-their-50amp-bbshd-that-ive-been-testing-for-6-months-but-you-gotta-buy-the-whole-bike/), so people can make up their own minds, about just how much a of a conspiracy there was. I know Jason doesn't have a problem with anything he said (or with sharing the communications that led to the bad feelings), being made public. I do however feel a little uncomfortable revealing Justin's comments. Myself and Justin have hardly discussed this whole topic, we communicate occasionally and it is generally to do with Grin products (I am a dealer of Grin's products after all), or some possible future products.
Personally, I couldn't care less if you guys pulled every Link to EM3ev (I said as much to Eric months ago), but I didn't state I wanted that either. If your fellow blogger (and in recent months very pro-Luna) Karl, did the same, I'd be fine with that too. I have no desire to have any sort of link with the whole operation and I don't need a single thing, from any of you either. Nothing much has been said on EB.com, since I (quite rightfully IMPO) refused to link to EB.com and eb-blog.com, pretty much ceased to say much about EM3ev, around the time they became very pro-Luna, late last year.
Eric goes round telling people he made me rich, I even had someone I used to consider a friend, say that to me. You know what, to hell with that BS! Ron wrote a couple or 3 nice articles, years ago, that didn't cost anybody anything (and I was very appreciative of Ron and I did actually try to be accommodating to Eric when he approached me, regards buying some Mac motors in 2014). No doubt it didn't hurt with our sales and exposure (to have those articles written), but to make out I owe everything to Eric, is just nuts IMPO. It is also pretty insulting and those articles do not in any way excuse or justify what I have seen recently.
I can honestly, hand on heart say, that I have no problem, with competition and losing some sales/business, because maybe someone else/another company is doing something cooler, better, they have some kind of advantage (geographic for example) or whatever. This is just a simple fact of running a business, you can't expect the World to owe you a living. I do however have an issue with people that operate in a fairly underhand way (IMPO) and that THEN, they also start making nasty and unprovoked attacks on me and good people that I know (notice I don't call myself good, that is up to others to decide, not me).
spinningmagnets said:
In answer, to the first question, frankly no I don't like it at all. When you are the object of whatever the hell problem he has with me, it isn't a great place to be. BUT, you know what, I didn't choose to be here, and I am not about to cave into what has to be the most deluded, vindictive, jealous, nasty, unpleasant and manipulative individual, I have in my not so short life, had the displeasure to experience.
So basically, what you are saying, is that Eric is special (as of yet, I am yet to grasp exactly what is supposed to be so extremely special/talented about him) and that he has free reign to conduct himself however he chooses? We all just have to take the abuse, and listen to what he says in an unquestioning way, no matter if that is through private emails, or in public, no matter a post on ES, or an article that goes out on electricbike.com (which gets 400,000 plus hits a month), or if his new best pal Karl writes an unbiased article stating that there is an ongoing conspiracy (because 2 business owners expressed an opinion)? We need to read lies and misinformation, but we are not allowed to say anything, because we can't upset the great Eric, or he'll get angry and the WRATH will be unleashed?
You know what, I personally never saw this great, positive guy that you saw, and there are lots of others that I have spoken to, that experienced it first hand, that didn't see it either. It was bad enough before Luna, but now, things have escalated to a whole other level.... Sure, it can't be denied, that selling more Bafang motors than anyone else, is kind of impressive, but I can't help but think, that wouldn't/couldn't have have happened, if the info site (that you, SM, largely built up), wasn't turned into a sales channel, with aggressive pricing and aggressive marketing. Operating with a relatively low margin (not particularly different from mine, maybe even better than mine on many things), doesn't mean you have free reign to attack your competitors, and be a complete prick (but it does seem to get you a ticket, to behave in a rude/aggressive/antisocial ways, according to some around here it seems). I guess doing it from the USA makes it all ok? Unfortunately, I can't do that either. I can't come to the USA, form a Company and comply with local laws and hire local people, because, as was so rightly pointed out, I am a British Citizen (with God forbid, a CHINESE WIFE). It was after all, the suggestion that i may do just that at some time in the future, that largely brought this whole situation about....
If people see/observe/experience things and several or even many people form an opinion, that does not constitute a conspiracy (IMPO). If someone shares their experiences/communications/information that they may have, I also would not consider that to be a conspiracy. This supposed conspiracy that I guess I am supposedly a part of, is worse than Eric and his pals discussing it and publishing that article?
There is a thing called Karma. If you go round (regularly) being nasty and offensive to people, or go out looking for fights, you can't expect nothing but peace and love, to come back to you in return.
IMHO this thread needs to go away. It's not doing anybody any good.
izeman
1 GW
+1. absolutely true nicobie. it hurts me reading it.
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nutnspecial
10 MW
Depends on your perspective I guess.
Between this and some other recent threads, I now know I will never buy from, or recommend luna.
But that's just me. These things work themselves out, as wheat gets separated from the chaff in the wind.
You know what I think about you, Paul? I think you're a nice guy. I also think you sell a quality product with good customer service to a market (ebike kits) that is about to really boom. You thought you were doing good before? The shit's about to get real in North America, and everyone is going to get a big slice of the pie.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=83115#p1219582
"...I also said, I was happy that Electricbike.com remove any mention of EM3ev from the site. I've managed just fine for the last year..."
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=83115&start=25#p1219697
"...I do not WANT electricbike.com to remove all links to em3ev, all I ever said was that I would not care/resist if they were removed..."
I can screen-shot my private emails if you like (with your permission?), perhaps I misunderstood the wording?...Don't feel bad, I often don't remember things that I've done when I've had a few beers.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=83115#p1219582
"...I also said, I was happy that Electricbike.com remove any mention of EM3ev from the site. I've managed just fine for the last year..."
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=83115&start=25#p1219697
"...I do not WANT electricbike.com to remove all links to em3ev, all I ever said was that I would not care/resist if they were removed..."
I can screen-shot my private emails if you like (with your permission?), perhaps I misunderstood the wording?...Don't feel bad, I often don't remember things that I've done when I've had a few beers.
nutnspecial
10 MW
Imo it seems the battery is what holds back ebikes from faster growth. Still barely adequate, large, and expensive for the avg buyer. Also too complex w/o much possibility of good support due to that and shipping regs. . .
I see at least a steady rise as time goes, correlated mostly to battery improvement. In the next year I'd guess that the pricing on packs will come down no more than 25-35% due to improvements in logistics in manufacture, availability, . . . I think the same large catalyst for improvement (tesla battery) is also the limiting factor in likeliness of a large leap forward.
Perhaps in the next year we will see available product improvement of 25% combined across capacity/discharge/weight/size, with an increased price of about the same 25%. Tesla is just a little guy though, compared to the multinat corps that could really change things up. . . . Either way, fwiw I consider myself a 'business' man (I fab raw material into a product that I sell), and have good reviews in product quality and customer service. It doesn't seem professional imo to publically refer to my real or potential sales demographic as pie, or slices of it.
I see at least a steady rise as time goes, correlated mostly to battery improvement. In the next year I'd guess that the pricing on packs will come down no more than 25-35% due to improvements in logistics in manufacture, availability, . . . I think the same large catalyst for improvement (tesla battery) is also the limiting factor in likeliness of a large leap forward.
Perhaps in the next year we will see available product improvement of 25% combined across capacity/discharge/weight/size, with an increased price of about the same 25%. Tesla is just a little guy though, compared to the multinat corps that could really change things up. . . . Either way, fwiw I consider myself a 'business' man (I fab raw material into a product that I sell), and have good reviews in product quality and customer service. It doesn't seem professional imo to publically refer to my real or potential sales demographic as pie, or slices of it.
Ok.. i'm going to lock this :|
Everybody, just please move on. .. thank you.
Everybody, just please move on. .. thank you.
- Status
