Grinfineon 25A Blinking red light, no power

[AF7JA]

I recently completed a build with a Grinfineon 25A a Cycle Analyst and a TDCM IGH. I have taken it on a couple of test rides and it was working.

Today, I went to go for a ride and when I applied power there was a shudder fro the motor and since then I have had no response to the throttle and a blinking red light on the controller. A couple of times, the cycle analyst said that I was pulling power when I applied the throttle, but that was the only indication that anything was happening, as a response to the throttle.

I did not first think the shudder was anything (and it may not be) because I had that on all of my rides if I tried to apply power when moving "too slow," as in, from or near a stop. It may not be connected to anything ad may be normal operation, all of my e-bike experience, to date, is a geared front hub motor and a couple of different mid drives, no direct-drive motors at all.

I unplugged and replugged everything. I removed the cycle analyst and then, seeing no change, reconnected it.

As it stands, Everything is reconnected and there is no throttle response, and no forward power or noises. I do note that the controller is quite warm to the touch. The motor is cool to the touch.

 

[goatman]

sounds like a blown hall or bad connection. go to grins site and they have an owners manual that tells you whats wrong. that red light flashes and then pauses. 1 flash means something, 6 flashes and then a pause means something different. here click this link scroll down to 25 amp manual
https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/grinfineon.html

 

[AF7JA]

It is a single slow (.5 sec on, .5sec off) flash. This is what the manual says:

LED Slow Flash - Controller powered up, throttle is not pressed or it is running but in sensorless mode

I looked around to see if I have another throttle around, I don't. Any troubleshooting tips?

 

[goatman]

sensorless mode means somethings wrong with a hall sensor or connection. that's the shudder you feel. do you have a dmm? if so heres how to test
https://www.ebikes.ca/learn/troubleshooting.html

 

[AF7JA]

I got a message back from Grin. They said that the blinking light indicates a brake circuit fault, which is different than what the manual says, I unplugged the tripwire and the problem is still there.

 

[goatman]

a grinfinion should run sensorless have you tried spinning the wheel and then hitting the throttle? or if you have PAS enable it and see if it works. but id be inspecting the motor/hall cable connections and testing the halls.

 

[motomech]

I got a message back from Grin. They said that the blinking light indicates a brake circuit fault, which is different than what the manual says, I unplugged the tripwire and the problem is still there.

The brake fault makes no sense. It can be dis-connected and it's out of the loop.
Time to break out the multimeter.
DC Volts, probably on the 20V range, use the pointy ends to go into the back of the connectors (tape sewing needles on the probes if they won't go in) and w/ the system on, ck the Halls. Red pos - blk neg you should see 5 Volts . Keeping the pos probe on red, put neg on one of the colored leads and rotate the whl by hand. At some point, the meter should jump up to 5 Volts momentarily. Ck the other two colored leads.
The throttle is much the same. Blk or gr - neg. and red - pos, should get 5 Volts. Put pos. probe on remaining wire and rotate throttle and there should be an increasing Voltage up to almost 5 v.

 

[amberwolf]

Today, I went to go for a ride and when I applied power there was a shudder fro the motor and since then I have had no response to the throttle and a blinking red light on the controller. A couple of times, the cycle analyst said that I was pulling power when I applied the throttle, but that was the only indication that anything was happening, as a response to the throttle.

I did not first think the shudder was anything (and it may not be) because I had that on all of my rides if I tried to apply power when moving "too slow," as in, from or near a stop. It may not be connected to anything ad may be normal operation, all of my e-bike experience, to date, is a geared front hub motor and a couple of different mid drives, no direct-drive motors at all.

Shudders can indicate a couple of things.

Either:

The controller was in sensorless mode because it can't read the halls, or the halls werent' connected, and sensorless mode isn't as smooth a startup under load. But this disappears once moving. It's only when starting up from a stop under load. Offground it doesn't do this. The blink code you get indicates it's in sensorless mode, if it's the same generation as mine (from last year). A steady LED would mean it's powered on and in sensored mode, normal operation. It shouldn't make the controller, wiring, or motor hot.

or

The phase/hall combination is wrong, and the controller is trying to turn the motor a different way than it actually needs, because it's getting the wrong position information from the hall sensors/magnets vs where the phases actually are. This frequently makes controllers and wiring (and usually motors, but not always) hot.

If the motor and controller both came from Grin, then they *should* have the correct hall/phase wiring sequence. But if they did not come wired to match (as I have had a miswired ebrake connector from Grin on at least one of my pair of Grinfineons from last year, means it *is* possible), then if the hall/phase sequence was wrong, such that the motor had a false positive combo, it could've caused damage to the controller (or motor, though that's much less likely) by overheating FETs.

If that's the case, the motor is usually harder to turn with it connected to teh controller phase wires than without, so try disconnecting them, and see what happens.

It's still possible to have failed FETs even if they're not shorted (got at least two controllers like that around here somewhere), so the motor won't turn from applied power, but it still freely rotates by hand.




If, with just the throttle, battery, and phase wires connected to the controller, (no other things connected to it--no CA plugs at all, no ebrake, no halls, etc) and the bike upside down (or otherwise with the wheel offground), the controller will still not spin the motor, even if you hand spin it first before applying throttle, then something is wrong with the controller itself, as that should get it moving in sensorless mode. At that point, I'd contact Grin about a warranty repair.

 

[AF7JA]

First, I don't want to speak poorly of a forum supporter.

I have come to the decision that this motor is not going to do what I want. I am switching things around so that I will use a bafang mid-drive and a Nuvinci in the rear. This is basically the setup I used with my previous touring trike. A big change is that I am going from a 26" rear wheel to a 20" rear wheel.

Lacing up that wheel, 20" and a NuVinci, was a bit tough. I ended up taking the wheel to a shop for final truing.

I am a bit disappointed about how this turned out, I hope that the parts will be useful on some future project, that I haven't thought of yet. I really wanted to add regen to this new touring trike set up. But, quite frankly, not everything works.

 

[goatman]

Today, I went to go for a ride and when I applied power there was a shudder fro the motor and since then I have had no response to the throttle and a blinking red light on the controller. A couple of times, the cycle analyst said that I was pulling power when I applied the throttle, but that was the only indication that anything was happening, as a response to the throttle.

I did not first think the shudder was anything (and it may not be) because I had that on all of my rides if I tried to apply power when moving "too slow," as in, from or near a stop. It may not be connected to anything ad may be normal operation, all of my e-bike experience, to date, is a geared front hub motor and a couple of different mid drives, no direct-drive motors at all.

Shudders can indicate a couple of things.

Either:

The controller was in sensorless mode because it can't read the halls, or the halls werent' connected, and sensorless mode isn't as smooth a startup under load. But this disappears once moving. It's only when starting up from a stop under load. Offground it doesn't do this. The blink code you get indicates it's in sensorless mode, if it's the same generation as mine (from last year). A steady LED would mean it's powered on and in sensored mode, normal operation. It shouldn't make the controller, wiring, or motor hot.

or

The phase/hall combination is wrong, and the controller is trying to turn the motor a different way than it actually needs, because it's getting the wrong position information from the hall sensors/magnets vs where the phases actually are. This frequently makes controllers and wiring (and usually motors, but not always) hot.

If the motor and controller both came from Grin, then they *should* have the correct hall/phase wiring sequence. But if they did not come wired to match (as I have had a miswired ebrake connector from Grin on at least one of my pair of Grinfineons from last year, means it *is* possible), then if the hall/phase sequence was wrong, such that the motor had a false positive combo, it could've caused damage to the controller (or motor, though that's much less likely) by overheating FETs.

If that's the case, the motor is usually harder to turn with it connected to teh controller phase wires than without, so try disconnecting them, and see what happens.

It's still possible to have failed FETs even if they're not shorted (got at least two controllers like that around here somewhere), so the motor won't turn from applied power, but it still freely rotates by hand.




If, with just the throttle, battery, and phase wires connected to the controller, (no other things connected to it--no CA plugs at all, no ebrake, no halls, etc) and the bike upside down (or otherwise with the wheel offground), the controller will still not spin the motor, even if you hand spin it first before applying throttle, then something is wrong with the controller itself, as that should get it moving in sensorless mode. At that point, I'd contact Grin about a warranty repair.

is the second 25amp grinfinion with hall issue? ill quote the other one so you can see

 

[AF7JA]

is the second 25amp grinfinion with hall issue? ill quote the other one so you can see

With the rear off the ground, the motor will spin. That said, it has almost no torque.

The advice from the vendor was to pedal it up to speed, then apply the motor. This is nearly the opposite of what I wanted. Being as this is being put on a velomobile, I wanted the motor to pull me up to speed and then I would pedal.

It was a lesson, if a bit of an expensive one. We all have a box of "things I tried, and didn't work." As I said, I will go back to the bafang. The main thing, that I wanted and the mid-dive won't do, was regen. Truth be told, on tour, I will have a solar panel array, so regen isn't mission-critical, it was just something I wanted to add.

At this point, I just want to get the velo moving so I can start on the solar panel trailer. I am not going to do the overhead this time. While having them overhead on the trike provided a great sunshade, the whole thing kept creaking and swaying.

 

[goatman]

its too bad you didn't get the phaserunner, I run them with no complaints and rswannabe
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=103634

and triketech
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=103834#p1556202

 

[AF7JA]

its too bad you didn't get the phaserunner, I run them with no complaints and rswannabe
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=103634

and triketech
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=103834#p1556202

Should have, could have, is the path to doing nothing.

I should have never installed it, in order to get, at least, a partial refund. However, there was nothing indicating that it wasn't going to work. I would never have known that it wasn't going to work without at least trying it.

I should have not ordered it with the stator-aide coolant. That way I wouldn't be so hesitant to open the motor. As it stands, it is going to sit for a few years, until I want it for another project. Then I will open it and see about replacing the hall sensors, assuming that is what is wrong.

Really, I should have stuck with what I knew would have worked, and never ordered it in the first place. However, I was under the impression that switching to a direct drive motor was reducing complexity.

The only part of this that really annoys is that I could have spent that money on the trailer. Timewise, I would already have the velo moving.

 

[amberwolf]

With the rear off the ground, the motor will spin. That said, it has almost no torque.

That, along with the blinking light (which means sensorless mode), indicates a problem with the system, which the seller (presumably Grin Tech) should fix under warranty.

The most likely thing, if it is just the controller, throttle, and motor hooked up, is a wrong phase/hall combination, or a bad connection on a hall or phase.


Telling you to pedal up to speed first to fix a problem with the system indicates that either the person you were dealing with doesn't understand the problem / system, or doesn't care, assuming that all the information they got is also present in this thread, so that we also can come to a good conclusion.



Using a generic 20A-ish controller and a 9C 2807? motor, I could get the heavy (not as heavy as it is now, but still heavy, I think over 400lbs at the time with me on it) SB Cruiser trike going without pedalling up to speed, though the controller wasn't very good. It wasn't quick, but it moved.

So what you have there, 25A controller and the TDCM hubmotor, should be able to get you moving, by itself, unless something else is wrong somewhere, or there's way more weight (or rolling resistance, etc) than SBC had.

 

[AF7JA]

My letter:

I recently completed a build with a Grinfineon 25A a Cycle Analyst and a TDCM IGH. I have taken it on a couple of test rides and it was working.

Today, I went to go for a ride and when I applied power there was a shudder fro the motor and since then I have had no response to the throttle and a blinking red light on the controller. A couple of times, the cycle analyst said that I was pulling power when I applied the throttle, but that was the only indication that anything was happening, as a response to the throttle.

I did not first think the shudder was anything (and it may not be) because I had that on all of my rides if I tried to apply power when moving "too slow," as in, from or near a stop. It may not be connected to anything ad may be normal operation, all of my e-bike experience, to date, is a geared front hub motor and a couple of different mid drives, no direct-drive motors at all.

I unplugged and replugged everything. I removed the cycle analyst and then, seeing no change, reconnected it.

As it stands, Everything is reconnected and there is no throttle response, and no forward power or noises. I do note that the controller is quite warm to the touch. The motor is cool to the touch.

Vendor Response:

I'm not sure which version of the Grinfineon you're using.

If it's the 2013-2016 version, then does the blinking follow any of these patterns indicating faults?
(from FAQ on Grinfineon controllers - https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/grinfineon.html#user-manuals)

There are 5 status flash codes indicating different modes of controller operation. Here the LED's will blink quickly a number of times and then pause:

1 Flash: Brake Cutoff Engaged
2 Flashes: Regenerative Braking has been Engaged
3 Flashes: Battery voltage is below the low voltage cutoff
4 Flashes: Controller shut off because motor had stalled
5 Flashes: Throttle voltage fault, or already high when controller powered on

If there is an actual controller fault, then the LED will stay on for a long time and only briefly turn off.

1 Flash: Motor Short Circuit Protection has Engaged
2 Flashes: 15V Regulator Circuit is Damaged
3 Flashes: Throttle Signal Fault (>4.2V)
5 Flashes: Microprocessor is damaged

Notice that there is no flash sequence for an invalid hall sequence (as happens when one signal is down) or when the controller loses lock in sensorless mode because the electrical RPM was too high. So in practice, the LED codes aren't all that useful in some key fault situations.

My message:

I sent you a similar letter from my ******@gmail.com account, as that is the account I used to make the purchase. It has the order number and a list of the parts ordered.

I just went out and unplugged the brake line from the cycle analyst, it continues to blink a single blink 1/2 sec on 1/2 sec off.

vendor response:

Hi *****, we've had a few cases of the TDCM motors developing a nick in the cable insulation inside the hub where it wraps around a bend and if this cuts through the hall insulation it can wind up shorting out the hall signal and causing this kind of behavior. Can you unplug the motor halls leaving only the anderson phase wires hooked up to force it to run in sensorless mode and tell us if it works OK then?

my message:

I unplugged the sensor wires, and when there is no load the motor turns. If I plug them back in it will not turn.

vendor response:

Definitely there is some damage to the hall sensors, or hall sensor wires.

In the meantime, would you run the motor sensorless and see if it functions for you fine?

My message:

The problem with that, is that it is on a Velomobile, and due to the weight I was hoping to use the motor to get up to speed, then start pedalling. This way I essentially have to get moving, and then start the motor.

Here I want to add, since this problem appeared, I have NEVER been able to pedal it up to a high enough speed for the motor to start. It is unusable.

vender response:

Hey *****, you can still use sensorless mode even from a stand still as long as you are able to put some force on the pedals just to help with the initial motion. Are you saying that even if you apply throttle from a stop that you aren't getting assist? It should still kick in pretty much right away, it will be a little bit "rough" feeling until you get up to about 5-6 kph but it should still help you just fine.

There is a lot of robustness in general to running the system sensorless instead of being dependent on the hall sensors, so I would have a go riding it this way and see how it is

The thing they are missing is that I cannot "go riding." It doesn't work. At this point, I cannot get it up to a speed that the motor can start from.

It seems to me, the vendor is just telling me to live with it. I do understand that they are dealing with a major interruption to their business. As I understand their website, I have a two-year warranty; so, I am going to wait until things settle down and start with them again. I do feel stupid for having tossed the boxes after the test ride (as I said, not knowing direct drives, I thought the shuddering was normal, a bit unpleasant, but normal). At this point, I accept that I cannot return it.

I just occurred to me that I should have had my daughter video an attempted test ride. As it is, I spent today removing the motor and shifter. from the Velo so that I can work on getting it usable again. Switching back and forth between configurations does take a bit of time.

 

[amberwolf]

vendor response:

Hi *****, we've had a few cases of the TDCM motors developing a nick in the cable insulation inside the hub where it wraps around a bend and if this cuts through the hall insulation it can wind up shorting out the hall signal and causing this kind of behavior. Can you unplug the motor halls leaving only the anderson phase wires hooked up to force it to run in sensorless mode and tell us if it works OK then?

my message:

I unplugged the sensor wires, and when there is no load the motor turns. If I plug them back in it will not turn.

vendor response:

Definitely there is some damage to the hall sensors, or hall sensor wires.

In the meantime, would you run the motor sensorless and see if it functions for you fine?

My message:

The problem with that, is that it is on a Velomobile, and due to the weight I was hoping to use the motor to get up to speed, then start pedalling. This way I essentially have to get moving, and then start the motor.

Here I want to add, since this problem appeared, I have NEVER been able to pedal it up to a high enough speed for the motor to start. It is unusable.

FWIW, the above stuff would have been helpful information to confirm the problem is what it seems to be from the stuff you did provide.

I would kind of expect them to suggest that you send the motor back to them for repair, however, as the next step.

vender response:

Hey *****, you can still use sensorless mode even from a stand still as long as you are able to put some force on the pedals just to help with the initial motion. Are you saying that even if you apply throttle from a stop that you aren't getting assist? It should still kick in pretty much right away, it will be a little bit "rough" feeling until you get up to about 5-6 kph but it should still help you just fine.

There is a lot of robustness in general to running the system sensorless instead of being dependent on the hall sensors, so I would have a go riding it this way and see how it is

The thing they are missing is that I cannot "go riding." It doesn't work. At this point, I cannot get it up to a speed that the motor can start from.

It seems to me, the vendor is just telling me to live with it.

It does sound like that, but I suspect they either don't know your situation (several different people dealing with you, none reading prior communications) or don't understand it.

What I might have said, in their place, would be "*if this will work for you temporarily, and you need to use it until you can send it back to us for warranty repair*, then....(the rest of what they said)". It wouldn't sound like a brush-off, at least.


FWIW, your velo and my SB Cruiser trike/my joints are a similar situation--I need the motor to get me started, and then I can start pedalling to control it via PAS, etc. But unless I change the gearing to something super-low (lower even than it is now, which is very low), I can't reliably startup from a stop unless I give a blip of throttle first to get going enough to let me move the cranks fast enough. (completely different system limitation in my case...but similar root problem. )