Has anyone actually used a 3x3 Nine or Revolute IGH (with or without a mid-motor)?

[tamagucci]

A big factor for me in regards to an ebike is being able to pick it up and carry it into my apartment. I'm on the first floor but there are still some steps I have to navigate. That's why I'm looking for any avenue to keep drivetrain and battery weight down.

I probably shouldn't worry too much about efficiency losses, and I do really like the idea of almost never having to deal with drivetrain maintenance, but I've noticed that seemingly insignificant changes to the weight of individual components compounds rather quickly.

I wanted to get a Kindernay VII, but the company went out of business and I imagine finding spare parts would be a nightmare.

This thread talks about the IGHs very low weight and supposedly shockingly high efficiency.

IGH Weight Difference - Kindernay VII and Enviolo Heavy Duty wheels with tires

One of our customers upgraded from Enviolo Heavy Duty to Kindernay VII IGH. In the process, we also upgraded the tire from Schwalbe Super Moto-X to Schwalbe Johnny Watts. We noticed some drastic changes in the weight difference and handling. While the Enviolo Heavy Duty IGH is excellent, it...

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[krusty]

My bike is already a slug with its XL Fargo steel frame, dual batteries, BBSHD and long distance touring rig. Last time I weighed it, iirc it was about 80 pounds! But I'm 220 myself and I've never much minded the bike's weight. It isn't done yet, either: I'm planning to replace the carbon fork with steel and I'm still a few bags short of where I want to be for a planned cross-country ride.

I care about the efficiency, though, if only because I want to maximize range. On my last multiday ride I made about 100 miles a day on dual battery with significant inputs from my legs. A 10% efficiency loss would certainly shorten rides like that, though it wouldn't matter much for my daily puttering around town. The 3x3 uses grease instead of an oil bath and that suggests it might not be as efficient as a Rohloff, all else being equal.

 

[Chalo]

I wanted to get a Kindernay VII, but the company went out of business and I imagine finding spare parts would be a nightmare.

The Kindernay hub was basically a Rohloff Speedhub with a few pointless/awful gimmicks added to the design. Everybody is better off with it dead and gone. Hydraulic shifting?!? Talk about a problem pretending to be a solution (but for a problem nobody had).

I've had my Rohloff hub for going on 25 years now. It hasn't needed anything but a sprocket and some oil, but if I do need anything else, it will be available.

If bike weight is important to you, derailleur gears always win that game. They're also much less expensive to repair after you crunch them up with unnatural amounts of motor power.

 

[tamagucci]

The Kindernay hub was basically a Rohloff Speedhub with a few pointless/awful gimmicks added to the design. Everybody is better off with it dead and gone. Hydraulic shifting?!? Talk about a problem pretending to be a solution (but for a problem nobody had).

I've had my Rohloff hub for going on 25 years now. It hasn't needed anything but a sprocket and some oil, but if I do need anything else, it will be available.

If bike weight is important to you, derailleur gears always win that game. They're also much less expensive to repair after you crunch them up with unnatural amounts of motor power.

Yeah what's up with that hydraulic shifting. I suppose it would require less messing around with cable tension etc, but at that point why not just make the shifting electric. I wish Rohloff made a 7 speed that was lighter, I don't need 14 gears. The Revolute could be appealing in that respect. I'll probably just go with Linkglide though.

 

[Chalo]

Yeah what's up with that hydraulic shifting. I suppose it would require less messing around with cable tension etc, but at that point why not just make the shifting electric.

Thing is, Rohloff uses two-cable spool shifting. The index clicks are inside the hub. The only cable tension that matters is the tension you make when you twist the shifter.

Linkglide isn't proven yet. Shimano has screwed up everything they have touched for decades, and I will need strong evidence that this isn't more of the same.

If you want 7 speed, use 7 speed. My favorite would be Sachs New Success rear derailleur with a Deore XT thumbshifter, but almost anything nice from those days that isn't Campagnolo would be better than what they're slinging lately. Durable, reliable, fault tolerant, and cheap.

 

[krusty]

Yeah what's up with that hydraulic shifting. I suppose it would require less messing around with cable tension etc, but at that point why not just make the shifting electric. I wish Rohloff made a 7 speed that was lighter, I don't need 14 gears. The Revolute could be appealing in that respect. I'll probably just go with Linkglide though.

That reduced gear count Rohloff is what I want, too: 7 speeds would be plenty so long as it covers a wide range (500% or so) and can take real torque. Hell, 3, 4 or 5 speeds would actually be fine too. 14 is too many, but that's a first world problem and I figure I can live with clicking through gears I don't need. The Revolute comes close to my target but it seems to be even more of a unicorn than the 3x3 Nine, which at least seems to be for sale for real from a couple of vendors. I haven't seen any sign that the Revolute exists in the real world.

To me the important things are: 1) never breaking, 2) shifting under load (or at least not breaking when you try), and 3) never breaking. The reason I don't like derailleurs is that they break constantly. Sure, they are fairly cheap, lightweight and easy to fix or replace, but when it comes to reliability they totally suck. If a car's transmission required adjustment or replacement every couple hundred miles it would get recalled as a lemon, but somehow that's fine for bikes? I'm amazed people put up with it, especially those that can't do their own service work.

 

[lnanek]

If you only need 3, Shimano Nexus 3 is considered a pretty durable IGH. I have one on my folding acoustic bike and admit I've never had to adjust it once. My Nexus 8 acoustic bike has required realigning the yellow dot a half dozen times.

 

[krusty]

The problem is the range on the 3 speed. Currently I have an 11-50 nine speed rear cassette giving me 450% gear range. I use both the largest and smallest gears on almost every ride so I want something that gives comparable range. Unfortunately I don't think any of the classic 3 or 5 speeds have anywhere near that kind of range.

 

[TPEHAK]

I have both Kindernay XIV and VII. My Kindernay VII already has 7600 miles under 3000W motor power and still works fine. This power destroys miltispeed chains and sprockets within a few hundred miles. The only chain lasts a few thousands miles under such power I tested is single speed KMC Z1eHX EPT Narrow.

 

[Chalo]

That reduced gear count Rohloff is what I want, too: 7 speeds would be plenty so long as it covers a wide range (500% or so) and can take real torque. Hell, 3, 4 or 5 speeds would actually be fine too. 14 is too many, but that's a first world problem and I figure I can live with clicking through gears I don't need.

Rohloff's overall range is a function of it having so many gears. Mechanically it's a 7 speed hub, plus a reducer that drops the same 7 speeds into a lower range.

Technically, it would be plausible to make a crazy wide range 3 speed hub and use the same scheme to make a 6 speed hub with more than double the range.

 

[krusty]

Rohloff's overall range is a function of it having so many gears. Mechanically it's a 7 speed hub, plus a reducer that drops the same 7 speeds into a lower range.

Technically, it would be plausible to make a crazy wide range 3 speed hub and use the same scheme to make a 6 speed hub with more than double the range.

Which would be awesome but nobody's making it! I think 500% gear range is about perfect for almost all occasions and for my part I don't really care how many gears there are (so long as its at least 3, though 4-7 would be better.) The other key is durability: I don't mind changing oil at all but I don't want the gearbox to break, ever, (at least not in a serious way) even if an elephant happens to step on the pedal while the motor is pulling full tilt. Field replaceable shear pins would be a fine solution to this problem, similar to what is used in agricultural equipment.

I hope someone at Sturmey Archer is reading this because I would love nothing better than to buy a 5-speed, 500% range hub from them. No exotic metals needed, just hardened steel gears and a bulletproof design, ideally an efficient 1:1 ratio for general purpose flatland use. Make the internal parts replaceable and you have a recipe for a 100-year classic design that our grandchildren can still use on their hoverbikes.

 

[Sloppy Floyd]

@Sloppy Floyd that looks awesome! Now that its the winter building season I'm dusting off my plans for an upgrade to IGH. I'm still sitting on the fence between the 3x3 and a Rohloff and I just priced each option out this week. The 3x3 looks pretty great but they cost almost exactly the same and the Rohloff has the advantage of easier resellability in case I hate it.

One thing I noticed is that now 3x3 says the Nine is not for use with throttle-driven ebikes and using it that way voids the warranty. I don't think the literature said that before, but maybe I missed it. Apparently it is because throttle can deliver too much instantaneous torque, though that doesn't really make sense since you can tune both throttle and PAS however you want. And 250Nm is beyond what my BBSHD can put out no matter how it is controlled (especially after geardown from the chainring). So this possibly new throttle rule is giving me some reservations.

This could be bc of me, but there were reports of other failures as well - a guy in NYC had one on a cargo bike that failed according to my vendor. Mine failed as well at full throttle on a hill. They replaced mine at cost, and I don't use throttle anymore on that bike. I rarely do on any of my bikes except with my Grin All-axle hub and Dyol throttle - such an amazing combo with regen.

 

[Sloppy Floyd]

Yeah what's up with that hydraulic shifting. I suppose it would require less messing around with cable tension etc, but at that point why not just make the shifting electric. I wish Rohloff made a 7 speed that was lighter, I don't need 14 gears. The Revolute could be appealing in that respect. I'll probably just go with Linkglide though.

I have two Kindernay hubs and they've been excellent. They don't shift underload, but they're buttery smooth shifting with no play between gears. I have one mated to a CYC Photon and one on a non e-bike.

 

[TPEHAK]

This could be bc of me, but there were reports of other failures as well - a guy in NYC had one on a cargo bike that failed according to my vendor. Mine failed as well at full throttle on a hill. They replaced mine at cost, and I don't use throttle anymore on that bike. I rarely do on any of my bikes except with my Grin All-axle hub and Dyol throttle - such an amazing combo with regen.

So the manufacturer claims 3x3 gear hub is good for e-bikes and up to 250 Nm torque, but your 3x3 gear hub was destroyed by 4500W motor? This thing weights 2kg and can not handle 4500W ? I feel like Kindernay VII is more durable even it claims it is good up to 160Nm torque.

 

[Mnaq]

Hi. I stumbled across this thread and realized there was one hub that was not really mentioned here which works fine with BBSHD. That is the Shimano Nexus SG-C7000-5D (5D means it is 5 speed for disc brake, there are others for rim, coaster and roller brake). It is a five speed made for ebike so it fairly sturdy. I have used mine now on a all year commuter bike (also in the cold with snow and ice) for halv a year and it works very well. I had to build the wheel though but it is good value if the gear range works for you. 1st is 1:1, 5th 1:2,63. I run it with 46T chain ring and 24T sprocket which gives me good cadence at 30-32 MPH on 5th gear. 1st gear is then good for starting at red lights or starting with trailer with kids (on the high side), but probably way to high for MTB.

 

[krusty]

OP here, circling back now that I'm finally making progress on this plan. In the end I decided to go with a Rohloff instead of the 3x3. The main decider was the price, since I was able to find a nice looking used Rohloff on Craigslist for a fair amount less than either system new. I also thought the oil bath might work better for me than grease, just because I need the highest efficiency possible for my long distance eBike plans. It sure would be nice if 3x3 provided some efficiency specs (...or pretty much any info beyond YouTube marketing videos of people riding around smiling.)

The truth is if 3x3 just put out more useful info about their product I probably would have gone with them. It really sucks how part manufacturers only care about pre-built bikes and ignore us tinkerers. I haven't bought a whole bike in about 30 years and I doubt I ever will again!

In other news I'm looking beyond stage 1 (getting the Rohloff working) to a possible belt drive conversion in stage 2. Anyone happen to know how Gates front pulleys compare to chainrings in diameter? I'm confident a 50 tooth would clear my Fargo's chainstay, but if it fits I'd prefer to use a 55 with a larger rear pulley to obtain the same 2.5x ratio (50:20 vs 55:22). I figure the larger diameter the pulleys, the less strain on the belt. Also the belt would be longer so there would be a tiny bit less wear per inch per mile.

 

[krusty]

Another update in case anyone is interested: my new-to-me Rohloff is finally up and running. Had to do a wheel build, get some new dropout parts, change the oil and figure out a few other things, but I finally got it going in test mule form and...it's great! So far all I've done is to throw on an old 9 speed chain with some links taken out but it already feels much better to me than any derailleur ever did. Chainline from the BBSHD looks pretty good with whatever offset my cheap AliExpress chainring gives me (this one is "Gustav" brand, iirc.)

At this early point I'm rethinking my plans for the belt drive because the chain seems totally adequate. Whatever ancient chain I pulled out of the bin, It runs quiet enough that I can't hear it above the other bike noises (unlike the chain with a derailleur) and I'm not sure the belt would do much better. So for now my plan is to pick up a proper 1-speed chain and get all my other bike details sorted out before doing anything rash.

I'm also thinking I'm going to switch all my other bikes to IGH as soon as possible!

 

[SGT_MAC]

I'm a big fan of IGH and belt drive. This is a classic Spot Rocker frame from when they still built them here in Colorado. It came with Paragon Kobe sliding dropouts and Rohoff cable routing. Has a 55T cog in front and BBSHD Ludacris controller. Will do over 30 mph easily on flat runs. I have since built a second battery mount that snaps onto the rear rack and parallels using a diode pack for incredible range and power!

 

[greenno]

Just saw this thread.
A buddy of mine kept tearing off his derailers due to either not being in the proper gear or throttle or both.
He's got an Exess HP E-180 bike with the Bafang Ultra motor.
So..
His idea was to install a Rohloff 14spd hub so I built his wheel up for him ( 2 cross recommended ) and that lasted about 3 months until it was skipping between gears and he had to ship it back to the East coast from here in San Diego.
Then he got the 3x3 hub as that was gonna fix all his problems.
That lasted only 2 months and he blew it up, got it covered under warranty but in the meantime he threw his 11spd Deore XT derailer back on and then on a ride this AM he blew the chain up, bent his chainring and snapped his 105bcd spider.
The guy doesn't ride aggressively at all but he's clueless about what gear to be in and he's all about the throttle.
What's my point?
If you ride correctly anything will work fine.
I have a 12spd on my Levo and it rides perfect.

My .02 is if you ride 100% off-road stay with the derailer and leave the hubs for urban street cruising.

 

[krusty]

Just saw this thread.
A buddy of mine kept tearing off his detailers due to either not being in the proper gear or throttle or both.
He's got an Exess HP E-180 bike with the Bafang Ultra motor.
So..
His idea was to install a Rohloff 14spd hub so I built his wheel up for him ( 2 cross recommended ) and that lasted about 3 months until it was skipping between gears and he had to ship it back to the East coast from here in San Diego.
Then he got the 3x3 hub as that was gonna fix all his problems.
That lasted only 2 months and he blew it up, got it covered under warranty but in the meantime he threw his 11spd Deore XT derailer back on and then on a ride this AM he blew the chain up, bent his chainring and snapped his 105bcd spider.
The guy doesn't ride aggressively at all but he's clueless about what gear to be in and he's all about the throttle.
What's my point?
If you ride correctly anything will work fine.
I have a 12spd on my Levo and it rides perfect.

My .02 is if you ride 100% off-road stay with the derailer and leave the hubs for urban street cruising.

I'm not shy with the throttle either, but so far so good on the Rohloff with BBSHD. I don't know how your friend managed to blow up so many hubs! I still have only 1k or so miles on the Rohloff so I don't know how well it will hold up long-term but its been doing great in the time I've had it and I'm gradually gaining a lot of confidence in it.

I have learned a few things about the Rohloff by trial and error: one big one is that you still *do* need to think ahead about downshifting in advance of uphills. If you're caught on an uphill grade without enough momentum to let off pedal/throttle for a shift, its best to stop, shift way down and then resume. I wonder if your friend maybe has a habit of forcing a shift when the hub doesn't want it?

 

[greenno]

Those hubs want you to shift when NOT pedaling, exactly opposite from a normal derailer set-up.
Probably he’s pedaling a bit when shifting and the gearing is not connecting up properly internally before applieing load as when climbing.
Now that I think about it he had his problems on very moderate terrain when not under a lot of stress.
It’s gotta be his riding style.