Have you owned and off roaded both hub and mid drive?

I am of a mind for a second build and am contemplating a hub motor (my first is a Tangent Mid Drive), having said that I have zero ride time on a hub motor and ride a lot off road on my mid drive...which it is great at but I am starting to wonder about ways in which a hub motor would eliminate some of the mid drive issues such as drive chain stress and the need to change gears full stop :)
Click to expand...


From what I read between the lines you are really enjoying the mid drive, just that you don't need the few quircks.
If you did a left side drive next time you would have no chain issues, no gear issues and you would still have the benefits of a light weight mid drive.
There are many ways to do this. You could do a mid motor on the swing arm. Using ie the Revolt 1xx motor. Or go all in and get yourself Matt's nice Davincidrive, you decide how many Astro motors the drive setup will use, 1 or more.
So far I think Matt did 1 quad Astro 3220 motor build for a customer for 35-40 kw bursts. :twisted:
 
A request for Dogman Dan: Sir, can you post some pics of, or provide a link to, the bike you use for technical off road riding? More specifically, what kind of frame and fork are you using? You have built a bike that does what many of us want a bike to do. The quote from your post is below.

Reason for asking is: I'm facing the decision of, full suspension with rear hub motor, full suspension with BBSHD, rigid frame with rear hub motor and suspension fork and Thudbuster seatpost. I already have the full suspension bike but it rides very well and I'm reluctant to convert it to an ebike, thus the consideration of rigid frame and rear hub motor.

The thread by Ozzzz, who rode the Continental Divide, 2700 mile ride, on an aluminum frame, rear 12T MAC hub motor. The bike had fat tires, suspension fork, and what appeared to be a Thudbuster ST seatpost. He mentioned not having problems with this setup. So, this got me thinking rigid frame and geared rear hub, with front suspension and suspension seatpost. My build will probably have 26" wheels and 2.0 or thereabouts tires. Keep it simple, points in the direction of rigid frame and rear geared hub motor.

Thanks,

Mike S


"The other is a 1000w geared motor similar to a Mac. This is the preferred tool for the technical trails, where maximum nimble is the need. Typically these trails cannot be ridden past 10 mph. I built them stupidly twisty to discourage people on quad and motorcycles. That bike handles great, I only carry about 9 pounds of battery on it, and the rear hub is light enough for me to barely notice it at all. At least compared to that 25 pound wheel, it feels super good. "
 
2016 specialized fsr.jpg


This is the bike I prefer for riding more technical trails. It's an old Specialised FSR. By technical, I mean trails hard to ride much faster than 10-15 mph, for whatever reason. (like I prefer going over the bars at less than 25 mph)

It's a kludge of stuff, and obviously I carry the battery wrong. The battery is only about 9 pounds, so it does not affect handling as much as a heavier battery, but it DOES affect handling, particularly when going faster than 15 mph. I could make a middle battery with a split pack, but tired of banging my knees on the battery. If I had a more modern bike with some space in the frame, of course I'd carry the battery there.

The motor is from E-bikekit. (2years old) It's a 500w rated 10t wind very similar to a Mac. Goes about 27 mph with a 14s lipo, (48v) but more like 25 mph with the allcell battery I currently run it on. Less speed on the allcell because it's 13s, and because it sags like hell. The motor is not running on the current ebikekit controller, but one from 2009. Both the new and the old are the same power, 22 amps. Old school CA on the bars for a display.

Fairly fat tires for sand, 2.5 or 2.4 on the back, and 2.3 in front.

The fork is a piece of shit, but better than what comes on a 300 buck bike. Really needs an upgrade. I used to have a marzochii bomber fork on it, but wore it out.

I ride this on nearly all the local trails, trails built specifically for mountain bikes. The MTB trails are steep in places, but this amount of power gets up nearly all of them. Most of the trails max out about 15% grade, and mostly the grades are short, more roller coaster stuff that pumps nice without a motor, vs killer grades like the horse trails in the natl forest.
 
st35326 said:
Ive only ridden Vail and Big Bear with my Stealth Bomber, mostly downhill. I really like the speed and silent power that a hub provides. I get why people ride mid drives though; balance, torque and... (can't think of a third reason right now but Ill edit this post if it comes to me).

From engineering standpoint I have an issue with the motor having to go through a transmission (chain, derailers, sprockets etc). Electric cars such as the Teslas, Leaf, Volt, Bolt and Spark Ev are all transmissionless. It would be an unnecessary point of failure IMHOP as electric motors do not require them. The noise of a mid drive is another issue for me, it shouldn't be the case that a 4700 watt bike that goes 55mph makes far less noise than a 250watt mid drive.
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Well that is almost correct. Ie Tesla, it does not use a gearbox in the traditional sense. It does however use a reduction gear. So for ebikes a jackshaft reduction or single stage reduction would be equal. Electric motors do require whatever reduction that brings the motor into its best performance. But you are correct in that electric motors does not require a traditional gearbox. The correct gearing for a mid drive will be the sum of motor RPM, wheel size (OD), jackshaft/reduction (if required) and the sprocket ratio. If done properly I would say the reduction gear or chain/sprockets will be the least of your worries. If your mid drive is designed as a left side drive, the problem with durability is moot as one can use custom made sprockets and HD chain or go kart 219#.

I can think of many pro's for a mid drive :wink:

  • Weight advantages over hub motors
  • More centralized weight
  • Polar moment of inertia
  • Superior weight distribution and less unsprung mass
  • Insane power to weight ratio
  • Flickability
  • Much better low speed control in technical sections
  • Ability to climb steep hills even at low speed without overheating
  • Often lower voltage use(like sub 50 v for ie Astro's)
  • Often possible to use real small ESC's that will contribute to more usable real estate
 
macribs said:
I can think of many pro's for a mid drive :wink:

  • Weight advantages over hub motors
  • More centralized weight
  • Polar moment of inertia
  • Superior weight distribution and less unsprung mass
  • Insane power to weight ratio
  • Flickability
  • Much better low speed control in technical sections
  • Ability to climb steep hills even at low speed without overheating
  • Often lower voltage use(like sub 50 v for ie Astro's)
  • Often possible to use real small ESC's that will contribute to more usable real estate
Click to expand...

Most of this is true and, if it wasn't for speed and reliability, I would ride one.

"Insane power to weight ratio" is subjective and not true for high power bikes. I mean, if you build to have as much power and top speed as you can do with a big hub, your mid drive will be heavier. Much heavier if you expect fair reliability.

Small ESC is possible if you run sensorless or very low power.

I did ride both a powerful mid drive and high power hub builds. The mid drive does have a better handling on the rough, can jump much better and is faster on most downhill sections. Yet the hub is so much faster on nice sections, climbing especially, that it does complete the course long ahead.

When I did ride against mid drives I won every time, and nearly half of the courses were not completed by my opponents because of drive train failures or crash damage.

I would find a mid drive a good choice if I was riding very technical trails that can't be done fast anyway, then I would build light and slow. Or else, if I was riding very high mountains that would make the courses and overall climbing much longer. Then, it would be built with a motorcycle drivetrain and much heavier than my actual hub build.
 
From what I read between the lines you are really enjoying the mid drive, just that you don't need the few quircks.
If you did a left side drive next time you would have no chain issues, no gear issues and you would still have the benefits of a light weight mid drive.
There are many ways to do this. You could do a mid motor on the swing arm. Using ie the Revolt 1xx motor. Or go all in and get yourself Matt's nice Davincidrive, you decide how many Astro motors the drive setup will use, 1 or more.
So far I think Matt did 1 quad Astro 3220 motor build for a customer for 35-40 kw bursts. :twisted:
Click to expand...


I love the mid drive save for the drive chain "worries"...i say it like that as I've not had an issue for a while now I've adjusted how I ride...i come from a motorbike background and I must ride it with more considerate gear changes.

It'd be great to come up with either a stronger geared hub like alfine/rohlof...all would be sorted then.

Or a smaller number of gears that can run a bmx chain
 
I'm late to this one, but thanks for the mentions.... I agree with most comments.

Specifically that off road is not one type of riding. It is very very far from that and why if ever there is disagreement we all have different experiences of what that is.

I have tried my hardest to answer this question through video footage over the last few years and am still on the journey.

More so how to define what is "best". Sorry to those who going from point A to B is about feeling. I want more than anything to focus on performance since it is less subjective and can be quantified. (of course rider weight and ability comes into play but we have to start with something)

The only decider I could come up with is a race series. You can argue about this better and that better, but what kind of simpler test is there? With all the different riding buddies you've got, you set out a number of race courses. Each rider has there own off road course set that suits them. you all have chances to prepare and ride and get to know the terrain....

You will quickly see some serious results that you didn't forsee. We started on a quasi version of this.

Race 1. I won on my big block, other riders were faster but overheated or chains fell off.
Race 2. One hub got a flat (lost) I finished but the other hub now had hubsinks and didn't overheat and could 80kmh on one straight.

Other rides we went on you can conclude similar situations even if not racing.

My drive train has fallen apart every few rides. LOST

Hub motors are more instantaneous power and each delay of the mid drive loses a bit.

Sure I can design race track which is all extreme climbs and I will win eventually.

OR you can design a bike just for the pleasure of it and talk about how nicely it handles. I say to anyone who can find other riders to do a race themselves, you don't have to take risks to win, ride safely.

There is no win win situation though. They are just better at different types of riding. Main difference is how much mechanical stuff you want to constantly deal with. And for my big block I don't have any riding buddies that can come for a ride through extreme steep stuff that I want to do so I tend to gear down to hub motor gearing for mateship.

You may or may not have seen my last weekend ride with 3 hub motors and 2 mid drive riders.
[youtube]1kykW4p6D4c[/youtube]
If we were racing that day I may have won too especially if I hadn't pumped the tyres so hard.... :twisted:

I have tried a few just rear hubs, rear hub with mid drive, but in future if I can justify it I would like to try the swingarm mid drive and a grin 2017 front motor... just because I love ebikes :D
 
Hey John. How is hubsink holding up heat wise on your terrain? I'm assuming they still need to take a break but break is much shorter from what I'm experiencing. Or can go just as long as mid drive?
 
drew12345 said:
Hey John. How is hubsink holding up heat wise on your terrain? I'm assuming they still need to take a break but break is much shorter from what I'm experiencing. Or can go just as long as mid drive?
Click to expand...

I rarely ride my hub motor on my terrain...

It's all the limits of terrain. You can only go a smaller rear hub rim to gear to slower so far or saturate a lighter hub. You can modify sprockets to absolutely anything.

With a top speed of around 50-60kmh in the above video my mid drive temperature was never much over 35c. about 10c over ambient. compare that to them still monitoring 80+c... but not overheating....

That vid is of Sketches main ride. that to me is mild - my terrain is much steeper and they (the massive hubs) will get close to overheating on shorter bits on mine... but there is no question I can find steeper and longer stuff that no hub motor can continue on.... My mid drive has never gone over 60c and that is beyond seriously extended steep stuff.

I would remove the CA if it weren't for the throttle control I like it for and V reading.

Most the riding we do now there is no need to stop where ever we go.
 
John Bozi said:
drew12345 said:
Hey John. How is hubsink holding up heat wise on your terrain? I'm assuming they still need to take a break but break is much shorter from what I'm experiencing. Or can go just as long as mid drive?
Click to expand...

I rarely ride my hub motor on my terrain...

It's all the limits of terrain. You can only go a smaller rear hub rim to gear to slower so far or saturate a lighter hub. You can modify sprockets to absolutely anything.

With a top speed of around 50-60kmh in the above video my mid drive temperature was never much over 35c. about 10c over ambient. compare that to them still monitoring 80+c... but not overheating....

That vid is of Sketches main ride. that to me is mild - my terrain is much steeper and they (the massive hubs) will get close to overheating on shorter bits on mine... but there is no question I can find steeper and longer stuff that no hub motor can continue on.... My mid drive has never gone over 60c and that is beyond seriously extended steep stuff.

I would remove the CA if it weren't for the throttle control I like it for and V reading.

Most the riding we do now there is no need to stop where ever we go.
Click to expand...

Thanks John. Good to know.
 
John,

Can you link the youtube link to this video so we can see it full screen, and with better resolution ?

Where is this ? ( I spent some time in Maroochydore, and also down in Southport. )


John Bozi said:
You may or may not have seen my last weekend ride with 3 hub motors and 2 mid drive riders.
[youtube]1kykW4p6D4c[/youtube]
If we were racing that day I may have won too especially if I hadn't pumped the tyres so hard.... :twisted:

I have tried a few just rear hubs, rear hub with mid drive, but in future if I can justify it I would like to try the swingarm mid drive and a grin 2017 front motor... just because I love ebikes :D
Click to expand...
 
ScooterMan101 said:
...

Can you link the youtube link to this video so we can see it full screen, and with better resolution ?
Click to expand...
Just click on ''YouTube" Logo, at the lower right corner of the vid window. :wink:
 
Thanks to Dogman Dan for posting a pic and info on his full suspension bike. This lets us know that a geared rear hub is very usable on a full suspension bike, thus avoiding some of the problems that occur with mid drives, stress and wear on pivot point bushings, springs to mind.

There are a lot of different ways to build an ebike, and there are a lot of ways to go wrong. Learning about what works well, is a huge help to all of us who are trying to be successful ebikers.

Again, thanks to Dogman Dan and everyone else who go out of their way to share their accumulated knowledge on this complicated subject.

PS, coasting downhill is easy, coasting uphill is priceless!
 
MikeSSS said:
Thanks to Dogman Dan for posting a pic and info on his full suspension bike. This lets us know that a geared rear hub is very usable on a full suspension bike, thus avoiding some of the problems that occur with mid drives, stress and wear on pivot point bushings, springs to mind.

There are a lot of different ways to build an ebike, and there are a lot of ways to go wrong. Learning about what works well, is a huge help to all of us who are trying to be successful ebikers.

Again, thanks to Dogman Dan and everyone else who go out of their way to share their accumulated knowledge on this complicated subject.

PS, coasting downhill is easy, coasting uphill is priceless!
Click to expand...


If you can do something like this with a mid drive build you will be fine even on a full suspension bike.



Or you could go bat crazy and achieve the same thing like this even for a crank drive.


gear%202.jpg

added%20bar.jpg


Those sketches are made by myosis, inspired by the electric motoped demo build. Notice how swing arm movements will not impact chain line or create chain growth/tension.
 
My first build was a mid-drive based on a Turnigy 80-100 (130 kv). I had a two stage gear reduction, ran on 50v and 120A (max). I built it on an old but high-quality cross-country mountain bike frame. 5 inches travel in the rear, 3 ish in the front. All builds after that were hub motor bikes because I could never get the chain to stay on reliably. Maybe if I tried again now that I have some more experience building.

The problem with hub motors is that the unsprung weight of the motor in the rear wheel affects the performance of your rear suspension, and in worst case scenarios will destroy your rim and spokes on large bumps. You might be able to mitigate that by using a light weight but torquey wound hub. Off-road you don't really end up going past 50 kph often anyway. If you want to go faster, maybe y/delta switching can help?

In any case, I think mid-drives are superior except for the challenge of managing the chain. I don't think it's easy to do on bicycle frames and with bicycle chain. If I build another non-hub bike it will be on a trials or enduro motorcycle frame.
 
Sounds like that is the case all over with converted bikes...I wonder however, what the case would be with the purpose built frames such as Vector/flux etc...

Has anyone tried a mid drive on one of them and put it up against them?

They seem to get thrown around a lot off road with big rear hubs
 
Seams like high powered mid drive needs to be a left hand drive for longevity like Matt builds. One gear reduction from drive to rear wheel. Gear it well and go have fun. I plan to do a mid drive next but have to say my monster hub bike is just about perfect for me at 110 lbs since I'm about 210 lbs at 6'-4". Trails, roads and climbs......haven't done much jumping because we don't have many around here but since I've had motorcross bikes my whole life I can tell you balance isn't best for jumping with a hub.

Tom
 
litespeed said:
.... since I've had motorcross bikes my whole life I can tell you balance isn't best for jumping with a hub.

Tom
Click to expand...
Yep, jumping is a problem that can't be solved with a hub build. I succeeded building very reliable and tuning suspension good, but jumping is very limited. I can take 3ft drops max, jumping about the same on the flat or DH.... Jumping uphill is not bad at all, more than 5 ft pretty often, and freakin fun. :wink:

I am very far from what I could do with my YZ 250 on a cross track, but in a mountain trail my ebike is faster because of its size and weight. It does handle so quick, brakes so much shorter, and no gear shifting to do, giving it a neat advantage.

Building a dirt bike with a mid drive is interesting at both extremes of power: Low power, lighter weight and good balance
giving a bicycle feel that is interesting for technical trails and jumps. Or higher power that could be achieved with a hub, but then it will be heavier and more like a Moto-X, to ride the forest roads and sand pits, and doing big jumps.
 
that myosis looks like a nightmare of complexity.

If I ever made another mid drive ride it has to be as simple as possible.

I went out for a ride where the dirt mc s ride with my hub motor mate. To continue my theme, if it were a race, I won because he pulled 5 spokes straight through the holes of the hub and broke the head off one. That's bicycle style spokes / rim / tyres.

He didn't even attempt climbing the cliff. I knew I couldn't do it but would have felt ashamed not to try.

[youtube]OEOlf80DfYI[/youtube]
 
Good looking video...thanks for the volume of vids you put out.

Care to do some hill run camparisons of hub vs mid? :)
 
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